Author Topic: TASCAM DR-2D Dual mode questions (Read 10576 times)

genesisoh · « **on:** February 18, 2012, 08:42:24 PM »

Hi,

I would like to run two sets of mics into the DR-2D and get a separate recording for each mic. My only experiences so far have not been in dual mode. I basically ran a set of CA-14 omnis into a 9100 (set to 11:00 since I typically record loud music) and then into LINE IN. I record in 24/48 and set the levels to 90 (I know this is rather low but I bring it up in post).

I want to connect my CA-14 omnis and cards to the DR-2D. Instead of a preamp (and in order to conserve space), I am going to use 2 battery boxes. Does it make any difference which mic I hook up to LINE IN and which to MIC IN? For MIC IN, what setting should I have for the recording level? I am looking for something conservative that I can bring back up in post.

If you have experience doing something like this with the DR-2D please give me some advice. Thanks!!!

genesisoh · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2012, 12:46:33 PM »

Anyone???

Gutbucket · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2012, 01:28:29 PM »

Run the preamp into the line-input. Set the line input level to about 95, any lower won't help with a hot signal- your levels will look lower on the display, but you will be overloading the input stage. At level 95 at least the peak indicator will indicate overload properly. If too hot, turn down the external preamp or use attenuators. You can add gain with the external preamp without a problem if you need to.

Run the other pair of mics into the mic-input, with mic power turned on. Mic input level 67 (menu set to low gain) is about the same level as line-in level 100. I wouldn't go below something like mic input level 62 for the same reason mentioned above, but you can add as much gain as neccessary for good levels by raising the input level as required without fear.

How much gain you need depends on the sensitivity of the mics and the SPL of the music so I can't help there. If the mics have the same sensitivity (I dunno if they do) then the omnis probably output a somewhat higher level signal since the're more sensitive in the lower bass and produce more ouput down there. So if it's loud and you have the recorder set to those minimum gains already (line=95, mic=62) and are peaking on mic input with the omnis, you might swap them with the card to put the omnis through the preamp>line-in chain if the preamp lets you attenuate gain as well as add it (I'm not sure what the minimum gain on the 9100 is).

There are a few variables, you might try it both ways and see which works better, jsut keep the gains on the recorder at line=95/mic=62(set to low gain) or above.

Hope that helps.

Will_S · « **Reply #3 on:** February 23, 2012, 01:57:31 AM »

Gutbucket is spot on, except that I think the minimum suggetsed mic-in level should be 67 to be sure you aren't clipping as long as the level meters say you aren't.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #4 on:** February 25, 2012, 03:50:05 AM »

Gutbucket helped me out when I got a DR2D. And I STILL Havent used it in the field

darby · « **Reply #5 on:** February 25, 2012, 11:00:54 AM »

Quote from: F.O.Bean on February 25, 2012, 03:50:05 AM

Gutbucket helped me out when I got a DR2D. And I STILL Havent used it in the field

Lee helped with my battery setup when I bought mine... thanks again!

Gutbucket · « **Reply #6 on:** February 25, 2012, 01:56:35 PM »

Happy to help.

Bean, go record something.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #7 on:** February 26, 2012, 12:36:15 AM »

Quote from: Gutbucket on February 25, 2012, 01:56:35 PM

Happy to help.

Bean, go record something.

I did, but Im waiting on my local bar band to play Thursday so I can try the DR2D on something thats not critical if I dont nail it

genesisoh · « **Reply #8 on:** February 26, 2012, 11:28:02 PM »

Thanks gutbucket for the great information. I will be using it very soon :-) For shows where I know I will not be able to check my levels, is it ok to set the LINE IN to say 90 ( and no extra gain from the 9100) if I am recording in 24/48?

Thanks again.

Gutbucket · « **Reply #9 on:** February 27, 2012, 10:09:18 AM »

I wouldn't go below 95. The danger is that you reach a point in line-input gain somewhere in the low 90's where the input stage distorts but the meter levels look OK and the peak light doesn't indicate overload. You could set up a test to determine exactly where the overload point is, but as mentioned 95 (line-in) and 67 (mic-in) are the minimal input gain settings which have been determined to be safe.

So I'd start there. If you find yourself in a situation where your external pre is turned all the way down and you are still clipping, then the only choice is to turn the DR2d input gain down a bit more and hope for the best. If you only need to reduce things by a few digits you might get away with it and if you can do that without overdriving the input circuitry into distortion then you've determined your new lowest-possible input gain level. If you do get distortion you'll need to attenuate input level further, possibly by using external attenuators, switching to lower sensitivity mics or using an external preamp that can add less gain (or even negative gain, which is attenuation).

Drgiggles1 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 09, 2012, 10:13:58 PM »

In a post below you advise to have mic power on. If Genesisoh is using 2 battery boxes as mentioned shouldn't he have mic power "off"

Gutbucket · « **Reply #11 on:** March 10, 2012, 04:40:05 AM »

Quote from: Drgiggles1 on March 09, 2012, 10:13:58 PM

In a post below you advise to have mic power on. If Genesisoh is using 2 battery boxes as mentioned shouldn't he have mic power "off"

yes

Drgiggles1 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 11, 2012, 11:32:00 PM »

In

situation does it make sense to try 4 omni's especially where you know the sound is very good with optimal seating, or would it be preferential for 2 cards-2 omni setup. Any negatives to going 4 omni's. I personally prefer the sound of recordings with omni's vs. cards but I can see where in certain situations cards are better, In those situations I would agree with the 2 card- 2 omni setup.

Gutbucket · « **Reply #13 on:** March 12, 2012, 09:57:11 AM »

Sure, as long as you set things up to take advantage of it. It doesn't make much sense to put two omnis next to each other unless you want to eliminate as many other variables as possible for comparison of two seperate two channel stereo recordings. But if the intent is mixing multiple channels to advantage, consider that omnis are no longer omnidirectional when mounted on something. Four channels, four directions, and the ability to fine tune balance and overall directivity.

Mr.Scully · « **Reply #14 on:** May 25, 2014, 07:29:56 AM »

Guys, I'm sorry to bring to life such an old discussion but I'm having some minor troubles with the correct settings of the dual mode on my Tascam DR-2D that I bought recently.

I'm a taper of loud rock gigs and I want to record two stereo tracks using two different cardioid microphones. I actually own three mics: Church CA-14 with battery box, SP-CMC-9 with battery box and Sony ECM-719. For a short test I tried to record a snippet at a local club where a Queen tribute band was playing. I plugged the Sony mic into the mic input and the CA-14 with the battery box into the line-in input. I also read some of your advices in this thread.

Line-in setting: volume 100 (max).
Mic setting: low gain, volume 70, mic power on (I wanted to use power off and use battery in the mic but the mic battery was probably dead so I switched it off on the mic and switched it on in the Tascam settings).

Result: the mic track was quiet. I did another test with the "middle gain" setting and volume around 70 and that worked much better. I still had to amplify the recording in sound editor significantly but I guess that's normal.
But the line-in track was VERY VERY quiet. I had to increase the volume by 1500% or something to get to normal levels. What am I doing wrong? When I use my Edirol with its line-in input, the standard settings are similar as with using a mic (volume around 70%). But here with Tascam the volume is incredibly quiet even when I set it to 100 which is the maximum possible level. Have I overlooked something? Could the battery in the battery box be dying or something?

(Also the CA-14 track sounded slightly worse than with the old cheap Sony mic but that could have been related to having to amplify the volume in sound editor like fifteen times).

So my questions are:
1. What should I do to record from line-in at a normal volume?
2. The mic recording without battery box sounds good. Should I actually use a battery box? (With hidden taping it's more difficult to smuggle in more gear past the security). Or is it sufficient to set "power on" in the Tascam settings instead?

Thank you.

red · « **Reply #15 on:** May 25, 2014, 11:26:27 AM »

Mr.Scully - I had recently wondered about running w/o b-box, here's the thread (concurrence is use b-box for best results): http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=166275.msg2076621#msg2076621

Gutbucket · « **Reply #16 on:** May 25, 2014, 12:36:26 PM »

Can you confirm that your battery box battery wasn't run down?

Assuming it was working correctly, it sounds like you'll need a preamp instead of the battery box to increase the microphone output to line-level as well as providing power to the microphones when using the Line-In.

Lacking that, you can try using your most sensitive pair of microphones through the battery box into the Line-Input, assuming one of the other pairs is more sensitive than your CA-14s.

danny3 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 26, 2014, 08:51:00 AM »

Circumstance has had me running small mics (CA-14 or AT933) without battery box/preamp into my DR-2d (PIP on.) Dependent on the loudness of the music, I would raise the side input level (up to 100) or try the input setting at MED.
Best practice would certainly be to use a battery box or preamp.

Gutbucket · « **Reply #18 on:** May 26, 2014, 01:12:00 PM »

The issue he's having is getting enough level into the line input, not the mic input.

danny3 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 27, 2014, 06:00:40 AM »

oops, I should have digested the question a bit more, sorry ...

edit to add: I guess I was addressing the second part of his question...
(from Mr. Scully) "So my questions are:
1. What should I do to record from line-in at a normal volume?
2. The mic recording without battery box sounds good. Should I actually use a battery box? (With hidden taping it's more difficult to smuggle in more gear past the security). Or is it sufficient to set "power on" in the Tascam settings instead?"

Mr.Scully · « **Reply #20 on:** May 30, 2014, 03:31:55 AM »

Yes, it's the line-in input I'm having troubles with. The mic input works fine (I switched the input gain from low to mid and the levels are quite good now with input level around 80-90).

I don't think it's a battery box problem (I don't have a spare battery to replace it in the CA battery box). I tested also my SoundProfessionals battery box and mics and although the resulting level is about twice as high as with CA-14, it's still very low.

This is the resulting WAV file opened in Goldwave (line-in input = 100). First half recorded with CA-14 and CA battery box, second half with SP-CMC-9 and SP battery box.
http://www.queenconcerts.com/tmp/goldwave_tascam_linein.jpg

You can see I'd have to change the volume to about 1500% to actually hear anything. When I record, the Tascam recorder says the input level is "-43 dB". WIth SP-CMC-9 the input level is about "-30 dB".

I must have overlooked something. I'm not buying a preamp, I've been recording loud rock gigs for years (with minidisc recorder or Edirol R-09 HR) and never had any problems with volume with any other recorder, in fact it's vice versa and I usually have to keep the input level low. I must have overlooked some setting on my Tascam, that's the only explanation I can come with. It's not just the dual mode, the result is the same when I record just line-in.

If I record a gig in this "silent" mode and then amplify it in sound editor, I will get some additional hiss and the overall sound quality will get worse, right?

Gutbucket · « **Reply #21 on:** May 30, 2014, 09:49:41 AM »

Levels shoudn't differ through the two different battery boxes unless the CA has a filter, built-in attenuation, or a nearly dead battery. I suspect the battery. If you have a voltmeter, check voltage across the terminals with the battery in the circuit powering the microphones. If its less than about 8V then replace the battery. You must measure it in the curcuit under load, not alone by itself in isolation.

If the level of the music wasn't high enough in comparison to the analog noise floor when the recording was made, the noise will become audible when you increase signal levels in a sound editor. You are amplifing the noise along with the music. That amplification of the noise floor will be the primary factor detracting from the sound quality.

I use the CA-UGLY preamp, about same size as a CA battery box. You might consider one for use with your line-input. Because the microphones I use are considerably more sensitive and output a much higher signal level for a given SPL, much of the time I have it set to around zero gain, and the UGLY is acting simply as a battery box and line-stage buffer rather than as a preamp increasing signal gain. But it gives me the option of increasing gain if I need to, and allows for adjusting the left/right channel gain balance if the microphone sensitivites of the pair are slightly off.

Mr.Scully · « **Reply #22 on:** June 11, 2014, 06:46:08 AM »

OK, it's not the batteries. The Tascam DR-2D inputs are for some reason much more "weaker" than Edirol R-09 HR inputs. I bought new batteries and did a test yesterday at a big indoor concert of a local (Czech) rock band (16000 people in the audience). I had three sets of mics on my T-shirt (luckily there was minimum security and even the metal detectors at the entrance didn't work properly).

1. CA-14 cardioids + CA battery box => line-in of my Edirol R-09 HR (volume level 70%)
2. SP-CMC-9 cardioids + SP battery box => line-in of my Tascam DR-2D in dual mode (volume level 100%)
3. Sony ECM-719 mic (power on) => mic input of my Tascam DR-2D in dual mode (volume level 70%, mid sensitivity).

Results in terms of volume levels: the Tascam line-in input is (even at the 100% level!) about five times lower than the Edirol line-in input at 70% level. (And the SP mics are actually more sensitive than the CA ones!). So the difference is really huge. With Edirol I can change the settings whichever way I want (depending on the venue) while with Tascam I always have to set it at 100% and even then I have to amplify the result in sound editor by about 1000%!

Results in terms of sound quality: my oldest mic (Sony ECM-719 for only about $100) would be the winner, it sounds so fresh and dynamic! CA-14 would be the second one (good clarity and bass but worse overall dynamic range), SP mics were the most expensive and sounded slightly worse (but that could partially be caused by the low input sensitivity - the need for major amplifying may have affected the overall quality). But the quality differences between them were minor, probably not more than 10%.

danny3 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 11, 2014, 09:18:10 AM »

Maybe try switching your DR-2d inputs; seems like the ECM-719 might have a hotter signal and the SP-CMC-9s might need gain from the recorder?
Or use a preamp with your line input mics.

Gutbucket · « **Reply #24 on:** June 11, 2014, 09:27:51 AM »

Sounds like you need a preamp to provide some gain ahead of the DR2d line-input rather than a simply a battery box for that input.

Mr.Scully · « **Reply #25 on:** June 11, 2014, 10:30:31 AM »

Yes, it's obvious a preamp is needed in this case but I just wonder why. Both my mics with the battery boxes (ChurchAudio and SoundProfessionals) provide a much lower signal to the Tascam recorder than to Edirol. So either it's normal and there are huge differences between the individual audio recorders - or there's something wrong with my Tascam.

No big deal, I'm always taping loud rock gigs so I think even amplifying my recordings in sound editors does not increase the hiss level (or at least it's not audible).

Gutbucket · « **Reply #26 on:** June 11, 2014, 12:52:54 PM »

It's normal differences between the recorders.

The Tascam line-input is designed only for a line-level signal. You are sending it a lower microphone-level signal.

The Edirol line-input is also designed for a line-level signal, but provides additional gain control over that input, which allows for amplifying an input which isn't really line-level.