Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Battery Boxes, Preamps, Mixers, ADCs, and Processors => Topic started by: nickgregory on January 27, 2004, 07:12:52 PM
-
OK, so I am researching (definitely not ready to purchase) what is available in the portable powered mixer arena. Basically something that would allow me to do SBD and multi mic mixes on the fly. The only requirement is I would like to be able to power it via batteries on board or DC so I can build a battery pack for it. I would likely continue to use an external preamp and just run the output from there into the mixer, so phantom power is really not a requirement for me. In talking with Craig, I feel like I have found an AC powered unit that would do the job in the Mackie 1202 VLZ, but have not been able to identify much with remote powering options.
So any suggestions are appreciated.
Thx.
Nick
-
i've never used a behringer mixer but this looks like a good option. http://www.behringer.com/02_products/prodindex.cfm?id=MXB1002&lang=ENG&CFID=726584&CFTOKEN=64985896 (http://www.behringer.com/02_products/prodindex.cfm?id=MXB1002&lang=ENG&CFID=726584&CFTOKEN=64985896)
runs on 2 9V's.
-
yeah, I should have mentioned, I have looked at that one...have no clue what it sounds like. I also played with a Samson Mixpad some time ago and was not a fan of that....but thanks for the suggestion...anyone use/heard one of these?
-
Wow, that Behringer looks really nice for the price. Anyone know how clean that box is? I'm almost wondering if that price is too good to be true.
-
744T, only 2 mics with a board feed
-
I am sure that Wayne can expound on this a bit more, but his Wendt X4 is amazing. I have my heart set on this one when I am ready to take the plunge. It costs about $1000 from what I could find on the Internet.
-
OK, I bought one of the behringer MXB1002 for a steal off ebay...will play with it and post back...I have a feeling this will be a case of "you get what you pay for"....but we shall see...tests to follow!
-
Yes, please let us know. I've been contemplating getting one of those too. Like you, I'm a little concerned over the low price.
-
Yes, please let us know. I've been contemplating getting one of those too. Like you, I'm a little concerned over the low price.
Well most of us, you, Nick and myself, will be running line into the mixer. I think that this unit will work fine for this. Now, if you had to use the pre's, it would be a different story, but line in I think it will do just fine.
-
Well most of us, you, Nick and myself, will be running line into the mixer. I think that this unit will work fine for this. Now, if you had to use the pre's, it would be a different story, but line in I think it will do just fine.
Jason is right, I am running line in...not planning on using the pres...the main concern I have is electronics it goes through in the box....I will be interested to see the effect on the output signal.
-
yah the behringer pres are among the noisiest worst pre's ever, but at line level ill bet it doesnt make that big of a difference
-
I own the behringer mxb1002, and I was surprised at how good it sounds. I'm new to taping and wasn't able to go top line to start. My desire is to do matrix mixes whenever possible, and the behringer gave me the option to "do it all" although be it lower end. One thing that I don't like is that the phantom is 24v on ac and only 18v on dc. I ended up selecting my mics based on the ability to handle an 18v phantom. I have Rode nt5's. They fit this requirement, hit my pricepoint, and are a matched stereo pair. So far I like them. They work well as matrix stage mics. I just recorded a local latin/jazz/fusion band with my matrix set up, and it sounds great. Maybe if I was going to 24bit it would suck, but to 44.1/16 via a jb3 it sounds great. My first matrix was jeff austin and chris castino in madison on 3-18-04 and it is posted at the archive. Unfortunately I don't have the software to do alot of the things I would have liked, but you should be able to get a feel for the mixer nonetheless. The soundman threw me a lot of curveballs, and with my first matrix I wasn't ready for them... but you can check out the show if you want to know. The biggest dilema of my cheap-ass software is my bitrate conversion. Untill I get decent software, I am recording at 44.1. However this 3-18 show I did at 48k and if anyone would like my untouched 48k files for a comparison I would hapily get them to you.
Matt
-
Thanks Matt. I am actually going to run the MXB1002 tonight at a show. I am actually going to bypass the preamps in the unit by running my mics into my MP-2 and feeding those channels and the SBD channels into the mixer as line feeds. My hope is that this will avoid any "noise" that may be introduced with the gain stages of the mixer. We shall see how it goes...
-
FYI on the 3-18 show that I did, the soundman ran my mics on stage through his snake. He used his phantom, and gave me 1/4" back for my mic leads. On the first set I ran them through chan 1 and 2 on the mixer and on set 2, I ran them stereo on chan 7/8 and on both sets I used 3/4 & 5/6 for the sbd feed because he shot me xlr off the board. All part of the curveball barage he sent me. Not any big deal really, but I wasn't prepared for xlr off the board and he and I both had to turn way down so as not to clip on the mic inputs that the board patch was in. However this may have been an advantage because according to the specs the mic inputs for lines 3/4-7/8 have a s/n ratio of 106db and the line inputs are only 95db. The mic 1/2 inputs are even better at 120db. Although the mp-2 is clean, any noise that it does have, will be added to the noise in the behringer... not any big advantage unless your mics can't do 24(18)v phantom. The way I'm reading it, you will be shooting yourself in the foot by using the line inputs for your mics.
-
The way I'm reading it, you will be shooting yourself in the foot by using the line inputs for your mics.
Not really. Two things, first the Gefells require 48Volts, but that is not an option since tonight I will have AC power. Second though, I ran a test at home of recording some samples from the mics>MP2, mics>MP2>MXB1002 line input and mics>MXB1002 mic input. The mics directly to the MXB did not sound as good strictly because the clarity was not there...almost seemed like the mixer placed a smudging effect across the mics input. On the contrast, the mics>MP2 sounded clean. The mics>MP2>MXB1002 line input was definitely cleaner than the mic input to the MXB1002. I 'think' that the reason for this is that the preamps in the mixer are not nearly the quality of the MP2. As a result, my inclination is to use the mixer solely as a mixing device, outputing a mixed signal to the Mod SBM1>D100, while applying no gain to the signal through the mixer, other than the minor gain/attenuation (not using the gain knob, but strictly the sliders) needed to get the proper mix for the room.
With regards to the SBD cables, no worries there, I have a set of XLR f->1/8 cables, and I carry a pair of adapters to conver the XLRf to RCA or 1/8 depending on what I am given out of the board.
Appreciate the input though....
Nick
-
I'm not trying to be contradictory... just trying to understand. Are you saying that you are bypassing the preamp, by turning the knob back? Or maybe the preamp is cleaner at the lowest level? And also, not that this necessarily made the difference for your test, but the mxb only provides 24v phantom with a/c power.
-
I'm not trying to be contradictory... just trying to understand. Are you saying that you are bypassing the preamp, by turning the knob back? Or maybe the preamp is cleaner at the lowest level? And also, not that this necessarily made the difference for your test, but the mxb only provides 24v phantom with a/c power.
no problem...definitely not trying to be argumentative either. I am bypassing the preamp because by going in line level (1/8' inputs) and adjusting the levels on the outside device (to your point, providing no gain with the mixer) was cleaner to my ears. It is very likely that this device, like the MP2 for example, sounds much better, and different when gain is applied.
Good point on the phantom...I was under the impressioni that when AC is provided that a full 48V was provided...since that was not the case, then absolutely that would have affected my test.
Another comment on that topic though as well, keep in mind that I am feeding the mixer line level signals from the mics and the board, and using the sliders to apply minimal attenuation/gain to get the mix right. The output from the mixer is going out to my A/D which is where I am boosting the signal fed from the mixer...basically I am attempting to avoid all gain with the mixer, and just trying to use it as a channel mixer, feeding line level signals in, and line level signals out, using the SBM1 to bump it up to get acceptable levels.
The reason I am doing this is strictly because in listening at home, (testing in front of the stereo), it sounded to me like the gain from the behringer applied a bit of a "grainy" quality to the sound. I am hopeful that by running everything at line levels in a live environment, will limit the graininess, so to speak. I believe that what I am hearing is accurate as well with regards to the more gain applied, the bigger the impact on the sound, because the same is true with the MP2, which is why I run that at the lowest level and adjust levels on the SBM1.
Hope that helps explain better. All of these assumptions of mine may be proven to be completely off base tonight though...we will have to see.
Nick
-
Thank you, that does help. I think you have this all thought out quite well! I doubt you'll get anything but a great recording tonight! I have a oade mod ua5 on the way, and I was thinking of using this between the board and my jb3 to get better a/d results (and stand-alone for just mic recording), but I'm not all together convinced that the jb3 front-end is that bad (I'm sure there are a million threads on that one here!). I may find a use for it the way you are using your mp-2, although it's just a digi-mod, and won't be as great of a difference as what you'll get from your mp-2. Hmm... I'll have to try a few tests next week after I get it.
Good luck tonight!
Matt
-
Thanks, I will post back the success or utter failure story later tonight 8)
-
well? inquiring minds want to know? Did it work out?
Matt
-
worked great, I will post a more detailed review tomorrow, along with a link to sound clips!
-
OK, so as stated above, I am really happy with the way the mixer worked out. Here is a detailed explanation of what/how I ran for those that care
SBD Feed
Ran XLRf out of the board to 1/4" in on channel 1 (left) and channel 2 (right).
Matrix AUD Feed
I ran MG200s (DIN) -> Zaolla Silverlines -> MP2 -> XLR F outs -> 1/4" into channel 3(left) and channel 4(right) of the mixer. For both the AUD and SBD inputs, I balanced them appropriately corresponding to the channel they were feeding
Side note, I also ran the mini out of the MP2 to a spare M1 to give me a backup in case things went wrong.
Out of Mixer
I ran 1/4" out of the Behringer MXB1002 -> RCA male -> Mod SBM1 -> D100.
Once I did all of this, I worked with the sound guy to run the house music through the PA, so that I could play with the inputs to get the correct levels. I ended up starting with the AUD sliders at around -15 db and the SBD sliders at 0, and the output of the mixer at 0. In both cases, the gain knobs were not used...the levels were adjusted outside of the mixer and resulted in a line level input being fed. My intent was to boost the levels on the SBM1 to get appropriate levels. Once the show started, I set the SBM immediately to get good recording levels. After that, in listening to the first couple of songs, I ended up backing off the AUD input to -20 db with the only other change being that I increased the SBM1 gain (or attenuated it less, based on the method that the SBM1 uses). What I got is a pretty good mix, especially based on the fact that at points when I knew the crowd was chatty, they still sound in the "background" so to speak of the tape.
I have uploaded the tape to the archive, for those interested in samples:
http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=11894
I would recommend Running Free and Americana Motel to give you an appreciation for the different song dynamics.
Bottom line, for the money, I definitely like the functionality of this mixer.
Nick
-
Seems like your plan worked great Nick!!! I'll dl the files and check out the sound later today. Just out of curiosity, where did you have your mics? On stage or back by the board. How far were they from the pa?
Matt
-
Seems like your plan worked great Nick!!! I'll dl the files and check out the sound later today. Just out of curiosity, where did you have your mics? On stage or back by the board. How far were they from the pa?
Matt
there is a fixed pole at the TS in the pour house, and I am guessing my mics were in the 25'-30' away range
-
scratch that question... I read the txt file!
-
I've been using my mics on the outside points of the stage to avoid delay problems... I'll be real interested as to how this recording sounds with a 25 ft spread from the pa. Based on the speed of sound there should be about a 25 ms delay between your mics and sbd feed. There are big advantages to being set up like you were, as long as the delay issue isn't there. Most of the time the foh guy will let me use his snakes to get on stage, although I carry 240 ft. of cable with me jic. I've set up both behind the stage and on the front of the stage. The behind stage setup was my most recent attempt and so far my best effort. In a small club, the drums aren't very loud in the mix. The time I set up back stage really did a lot to bring that stuff out. At one point in the 1st set (this was a recording of a friends band and he primarily just wanted the 2nd and 3rd sets) I dropped the sbd feed all the way out to see how the mics sounded, then did the same with the the mic feed. It was amazing how the mics almost perfectly filled in the missing frequencys from the sbd feed. I originally miced the stage corners based on a recomendation from Doug Oade.
Matt
-
I've been using my mics on the outside points of the stage to avoid delay problems... I'll be real interested as to how this recording sounds with a 25 ft spread from the pa. Based on the speed of sound there should be about a 25 ms delay between your mics and sbd feed. There are big advantages to being set up like you were, as long as the delay issue isn't there. Most of the time the foh guy will let me use his snakes to get on stage, although I carry 240 ft. of cable with me jic. I've set up both behind the stage and on the front of the stage. The behind stage setup was my most recent attempt and so far my best effort. In a small club, the drums aren't very loud in the mix. The time I set up back stage really did a lot to bring that stuff out. At one point in the 1st set (this was a recording of a friends band and he primarily just wanted the 2nd and 3rd sets) I dropped the sbd feed all the way out to see how the mics sounded, then did the same with the the mic feed. It was amazing how the mics almost perfectly filled in the missing frequencys from the sbd feed. I originally miced the stage corners based on a recomendation from Doug Oade.
Matt
interesting idea to mic behind the stage....my problem is that most bands that I tape have lyrics, and if I ran on stage I would not get those, or very muffled and I am concerned that the mix would be unnatural without some "room ambience."
with regards to the delay, I am pretty sure I could not go much further back without it becoming an issue. I "think" that inside of 30 ft, the ms of required delay is not as noticeable because it can be concealed by room acoustics...outside of that I think I would have an issue. Just my perceptions though, we will see as I get more experience with the setup.
-
In my initial attempt to get info on matrix recordings I had some people tell me that within 25ft was ok, and some said within 10ft. Doug said 10ft (man, I wish I had that guys experience!). If it is there it will sound like a reverb, or echo. The room ambiance was slighted with the behind stage setup... Not completly, but I really had to lift the sliders between songs to get any crowd reaction. As for the vocals, that is what is usually prominant in the sbd feed, so you usually want less of thoes from your mics anyway. The "typical" sbd-to-aud ratio is somewhere around 60-70% sbd and 40-30% aud. For someone who has the quality of mics that you do, and assumably the taste for a good aud recording, you may want that ratio reversed, in which case you gain great advantage with the setup you used. There are so many factors to cosider when doing this type of recording. The band, the room, the bands stage volume, the guy running the main board, mic location, overall room volume, room noise, etc... Every situation is different. It can be really fun/challanging!!!!
-
FANTASTIC recording Nick!!!! Excelent work! If there were any delay issues, maybe some of the faster moving mando runs were a bit muddied, but that just as easily could have been the guys fingers, or the room. Unnoticable unless you are looking for it, and even then it may have just been me trying to find SOMETHING wrong with that recording. I've just listened to the 2nd set so far... even busted out the sennheisers... The soundstage, the mix from the board, and everything you did was absolutly top notch. If I ever figure out how to +T you... I will! Great job.
Great band too. That is the first time I've heard them. So many great bands on the sceen these days! Good time to be a jamband fan!
Matt
-
FANTASTIC recording Nick!!!! Excelent work! If there were any delay issues, maybe some of the faster moving mando runs were a bit muddied, but that just as easily could have been the guys fingers, or the room. Unnoticable unless you are looking for it, and even then it may have just been me trying to find SOMETHING wrong with that recording. I've just listened to the 2nd set so far... even busted out the sennheisers... The soundstage, the mix from the board, and everything you did was absolutly top notch. If I ever figure out how to +T you... I will! Great job.
Great band too. That is the first time I've heard them. So many great bands on the sceen these days! Good time to be a jamband fan!
Matt
Thanks Matt. And on the mando runs, you are right, that is probably the only spot it is noticeable, but on the AUD tapes I have made in that room it is muddy as well....so that being said, not serious enough for me to concern myself with delay ;D
Thanks though, and +t to you...