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Author Topic: Omnis vs cards outdoors  (Read 7769 times)

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Offline AndyLGR

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Omnis vs cards outdoors
« on: June 12, 2013, 03:11:14 AM »
Are omnis affected by windy weather just as cards are? I recorded outdoors at a festival last year and it was bad weather, real windy at times and obviously it was extremely audible on the recording. Would that type of weather affect omnis too?

Offline Ziggz

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Re: Omnis vs cards outdoors
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2013, 05:09:50 AM »
Omnis in that kind of weather  8)

Sample: At853 cards and CA-11 omnis from same location http://www.mediafire.com/?db89op5r8ji731t

adrianf74

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Re: Omnis vs cards outdoors
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2013, 06:56:12 AM »
If it's windy, windscreens and dead rats will do nothing to help you while running  cards.  I learned a valuable lesson a few years back when I ran cards duringa Jon Anderson set.  Lots of wind noise on my recording.  During the other sets I ran omnis and a bit of nose was present during those sets, too.

I almost always run omnis outdoors, anyhow, when it comes to smaller mics like the CA's, AT's, etc.  I'm going to be running AKG actives shortly and unless in wearing them when it's really windy, I'll be running the smaller 853 omnis instead.

Offline hi and lo

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Re: Omnis vs cards outdoors
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2013, 07:16:08 AM »
If it's windy, windscreens and dead rats will do nothing to help you while running  cards.

Sorry you haven't had a better experience with running in the wind, but this generalization is dead wrong. With the right windscreens and/or rats, you will absolutely be protected from all but the most severe of wind gusts and there are thousands of tapes out there to prove it.

Offline AndyLGR

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Re: Omnis vs cards outdoors
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2013, 08:27:01 AM »
I used the SP-CMC-4U cards with the standard windscreens that they came with and they did nothing to prevent wind noise on the recording.

Is the key getting a set of omnis for outdoors then or would the cards be any better with better windscreens?

adrianf74

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Re: Omnis vs cards outdoors
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2013, 08:47:28 AM »
If it's windy, windscreens and dead rats will do nothing to help you while running  cards.

Sorry you haven't had a better experience with running in the wind, but this generalization is dead wrong. With the right windscreens and/or rats, you will absolutely be protected from all but the most severe of wind gusts and there are thousands of tapes out there to prove it.

I beg to differ.  In the case of the CA-14's I was running (with built-in windscreens) and the dead rats from TBrown, I as at an extremely flat fairground and a thunderstorm was approaching; the wind was pretty severe (gusting to 30km/h) and trashed the recording.  When my buddy has run AKG CK61's with stock windscreens, he's been hit very minorly so I agree with what you're saying but the little mics just can't handle the wind as well as bigger ones (and this is from repeated experience).

Offline hi and lo

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Re: Omnis vs cards outdoors
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2013, 09:12:59 AM »
If it's windy, windscreens and dead rats will do nothing to help you while running  cards.

Sorry you haven't had a better experience with running in the wind, but this generalization is dead wrong. With the right windscreens and/or rats, you will absolutely be protected from all but the most severe of wind gusts and there are thousands of tapes out there to prove it.

I beg to differ.  In the case of the CA-14's I was running (with built-in windscreens) and the dead rats from TBrown, I as at an extremely flat fairground and a thunderstorm was approaching; the wind was pretty severe (gusting to 30km/h) and trashed the recording.  When my buddy has run AKG CK61's with stock windscreens, he's been hit very minorly so I agree with what you're saying but the little mics just can't handle the wind as well as bigger ones (and this is from repeated experience).

Those are indoor windscreens and OP did not specify mics he was using. Making inaccurate generalizations about the effectiveness of windscreens/rats based on your experience with CA miniature mics and stock AKG windscreens presents a picture that simply isn't true. Furthermore, diaphragm size of the microphone has very little to do with their resistance/tolerance of wind noise and has everything to due with he fact that there are (probably) no good heavy duty windscreens properly sized and available for 6-10 mm microphones. When you are using 20-21mm microphones, the options include Shure A81-WS and the DPA screens (among others), both of which provide excellent protection in even strong winds.


Offline Chuck

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Re: Omnis vs cards outdoors
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2013, 09:34:31 AM »
My experience has been that good quality wind screens do help mitigate wind noise in my recordings. The Shure A81WS, for example, does a good job with my AKG C-480's with the CK-61 capsules in windy conditions.
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Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
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cashandkerouac

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Re: Omnis vs cards outdoors
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2013, 10:44:33 AM »
My experience has been that good quality wind screens do help mitigate wind noise in my recordings. The Shure A81WS, for example, does a good job with my AKG C-480's with the CK-61 capsules in windy conditions.

i agree that good wind screens can significantly mitigate wind noise with cards or omnis.  but in my experience you do pay a price in the high frequencies when using the heavy duty windscreens.  unless the wind is totally unruly i'd rather take my chances with omnis and regular windscreens rather than have a slightly muffled high end.  i am, however, curious about the Rycote softies.  i've heard they work quite well and do not muffle the high end.  anyone using these or something very similar?   
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 10:46:08 AM by bass_ur_face »

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Omnis vs cards outdoors
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2013, 10:45:15 AM »
omni but, you must have a pair of dead rats.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Omnis vs cards outdoors
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2013, 11:43:49 AM »
Here's a few basic generalizations which hold true:

Omnis are considerably less susceptible to wind noise than cardioids.  That is partly due to the physical design of the omni capsule which puts the diaphragm under higher tension.

Windscreens of both the foam and fabric-covered-basket type help to reduce or eliminate wind noise, regardless of microphone pattern.  The effectiveness of a windscreen is determined by how well it can calm the turbulent airflow around the capsule. This is more or less directly related to its size.  Small windscreens don't trap much air-space and are therefore not very effective.  The size of the microphone itself has little or nothing to do with it.  If you were to put a Church Audio or small AT cardioid in a big Shure A81WS instead of the tiny foam screens typically used on them, you’d be likely to eliminate all wind noise in most cases.

Windscreens reduce the microphone's high frequency sensitivity, but do so in a very linear fashion which can usually be compensated for effectively with simple EQ.  Some screens are more eggregious than others, and better screens effect the highs less.  However, in general the bigger and more effective the windscreen is, the more it will reduce the mic's high frequency sensitivity.

Furry covers work on the same basic principle of reducing the energy of the wind turbulence around the capsule.  They are popular because they can be added to an existing windscreen to increase its effectiveness and because they are inexpensive and compact to carry.  They are not any more effective than using a larger foam screen to begin with and in many (most?) cases are less effective than a larger foam screen would be. As far as fur covers go, the looser, fluffier and fuzzier the fur, the better. Matted, dreadlocked fur isn't particularly effective at reducing wind noise, yet is no less effective at rolling off more treble response.  If the fur isn’t visibly blowing around freely in the wind, it isn’t doing its intended job.

You can also nest a larger foam screen over your small foam one to increase wind protection.  Ubiquitous and cheap ball-mic slip-on foam screens (SM58 style) work well for that to bolster the wind protection of small microphones, velcro-tied or gaff taped closed at the open, cable exit end.  They sell those at my local dollar store for a buck.  If on a tight budget I’d try that first, then add fur if that wasn’t enough, or go directly to the highly effective but somewhat costly Shure A81WS.  That big foam Shure screen is basically two windscreens in one, with denser wind blocking foam on the outside, and more open ‘air-space’ foam on the inside, used primarily to center the microphone in that internal airspace.  It’s very effective and well worth the cost, IMO. 

I can get away with small lavaliere foam screens on omnis in the same outdoor situations which call for use of the big Shure A81WS on cardioids or hypercards.  I don’t care as much for fur covers unless the foam isn’t enough and I don’t have a bigger foam screen to substitute.

The key to effective wind protection is sufficient size of the dead-airspace around the capsule housing.
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Offline Chuck

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Re: Omnis vs cards outdoors
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2013, 11:50:59 AM »
^ Good post. That lays it all out. The good and the bad.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
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Offline hi and lo

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Re: Omnis vs cards outdoors
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2013, 11:52:28 AM »
That's a very good summary, Gutbucket.

I will add two things. First, according to Shure customer support (here), the A81WS is only 2-3dB down at 20kHz and roll-off starts above 10kHz, which isn't very much. I wish they had better published specs, but my ears tend to agree with this information. They are excellent windscreens.

Second, making proper windscreens is very much a science and, although I know many users on this forum might disagree, I tend to avoid homemade 'rats' and fuzzy things. While they might be cost-effective and provide some amount of utility, their effect on frequency response is a complete mystery and there is most certainly no science or controlled testing behind their design. A windscreen like the Shure A81WS has two layers of differing density foams and was designed through testing and careful engineering. I also don't think they're very expensive, considering just how effective they really are, but ymmv.

Offline Chuck

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Re: Omnis vs cards outdoors
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2013, 12:05:56 PM »
I think one thing that frequently gets missed when discussing the effect of windscreens on microphones is the actual wind that necessitates the use of the wind screens. I can't explain the science behind it, but wind definitely changes sound. In my experience high frequencies are effected the most. They seem to get blown around with the wind.

Anyway, my point is that windscreens are not the only reason the high end is attenuated when you use them on microphones in windy conditions.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Omnis vs cards outdoors
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2013, 12:29:26 PM »
Good points by hi and lo.  I actually use the A81WS for minor EQ compensation on a pair cardioids in situations which don't require wind protection but where the normal response of those mics would be a touch bright without them.  I could EQ it, but the relatively minor high frequency cut provided by the screens is just about right, and they also provide good physical protection for the mics at the same time. 

When I finally picked up a pair of the Shures I stopped thinking about better windscreens for the mics I have which fit in them.

And Chuck makes a good point about wind-blown sound problems, what some call 'wind-phasing'.  It’s caused by the wind physically modulating the compression/rarefaction waves of the air that make up the moving sound waves. The only way to combat that is to move closer, so there is less opportunity for wind to blow the air around between the source and the mics.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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