Topic: On-board mics: which are best for live recording?

[randelph]

I've got an Edirol R-09, and more often than not I end up just using the onboard mics.  Don't like them all that well unless they're pretty close to the source, hence my question.

These days I see that there are portable digital recorders with different mic configurations, from m/s, to surround to a combo of omni/cardiod.

For someone like me, that wants to simply place the unit in the room using the onboard mics, what units would you recommend for the most natural, dimensional sound.  Sometimes I'm in close proximity to what is being recorded, but more often than not I'm in rooms of varying sizes, some with considerable natural echo.

[Napo]

I am pleased with the internals of my Sony M10. Close to the source, they pick up bass sound well.

[ilduclo]

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/sony-pcm-d1-digital-field-recorder?src=3WWRWXGP

[anr]

To give you an idea, here are two short samples.  First is an Edirol RO-9, second is a Zoom H2.

The Edirol has a nice smooth sound, while the H2 is a tad harsh toward the top end.  There are many on here who will say both are crap, but they won't listen to them.  But please do, you'll be surprised.  I had 4 versions of each of these shows, 3 made with external mics, plus these.  I kept these out of choice.  Of course, that's not always the case, but it does show what internals are capable of. 


http://www.sendspace.com/file/lu1kka

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ewh5da

[wppcproductions]

The 09HR mics are ok for low volume But in loud music you will get a clicking sound and distorted recording.Thats what I endup with.I had to use the external mics to fix this problem.

The outer day I recorded a thunderstorm.It came out awesome with the internal mics.

[fmaderjr]

By far the best sounding internal mics are the Chris Church modded R-09 ("Micsketeer Mod") with cardioid caps. He replaces the internal mics with CA-11 caps and I think adds resistors so that they will record high sound pressure levels without distortion running off the limited voltage provided by the recorder. This recorder sounds just as good as CA-11's > battery box > R-09 except that you can't place the mics wherever want like you could with external CA-11's. It would be perfect for moderately loud to loud shows, but would not be ideal for very quiet stuff since the R-09's preamp is not the greatest. I've run it as a backup recorder at rock shows where I had to patch a few of its tracks into the main recording (CA-14's > Littlebox > recorder) and none of the band members noticed any difference.

I would seriously consider asking Chris Church is he still performs this mod. I'm guessing it might cost around $125 shipped.

[aaronji]

To give you an idea, here are two short samples.  First is an Edirol RO-9, second is a Zoom H2.

The Edirol has a nice smooth sound, while the H2 is a tad harsh toward the top end.  There are many on here who will say both are crap, but they won't listen to them.  But please do, you'll be surprised.  I had 4 versions of each of these shows, 3 made with external mics, plus these.  I kept these out of choice.  Of course, that's not always the case, but it does show what internals are capable of. 


http://www.sendspace.com/file/lu1kka

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ewh5da

Personally, I don't think either of those samples are all that good.  I don't think I'd use the word "crap" to describe them, but definitely not great.  And, yes, I did listen to them.  The Edirol recording has a lot of hiss.  The Zoom sample has some distortion.  Both are lacking in the high and low ends.  I am surprised these are better than the external mic recordings...

In addition to the D1, which is really expensive, I have heard some pretty good recordings using the internal mics on the D50.  And Olympus claims to have the "best-in-class microphones" on the LS-100 (I've never heard anything taped with them, though)...

[anr]

aaronji

Thanks for listening and the comments, which I agree with although personally I like the low end sound on the Edirol one.  My point is they are far better than the externals which, if I recall, were carelessly recorded from not very good seats in what are poor sounding venues.   In parts they were better, but the internals were consistently tidy.  They were recorded from the stage and the H2 taper's notes, for example, say exactly what you said - slight distortion. 

But on the positive side you can make out all the words, which is rather the point with a singer/songwriter.  I've heard many recordings with high end gear of shows where the vocals are completely buried. 

However, the object was to provide an illustration of what internals can do.  This is it, and I fully recommend investing in a decent set of externals and a battery box.  Then get a decent seat and hope that everyone else in the recording chain does their bit, as you can't control them. 


Edited to add, this was done with an Olympus, but don't know the model.  It is truly, utterly dreadful.  (Same artist, same venue but different show).  Forgot I had this.  Don't ask for a copy as I'm deleting it!! 


http://www.sendspace.com/file/u9uq84

[aaronji]

My point is they are far better than the externals which, if I recall, were carelessly recorded from not very good seats in what are poor sounding venues.   In parts they were better, but the internals were consistently tidy.  They were recorded from the stage and the H2 taper's notes, for example, say exactly what you said - slight distortion.

Location, location, location!  That's the crux of it, isn't it?  I'll bet that if the externals were in the same location as the internals, they would have compared (much) more favorably...

[thekittycatt]

aaronji

I've heard many recordings with high end gear of shows where the vocals are completely buried. 

That could be a bad taper or worse yet, a bad sound engineer.

[acidjack]

I've got an Edirol R-09, and more often than not I end up just using the onboard mics.  Don't like them all that well unless they're pretty close to the source, hence my question.

These days I see that there are portable digital recorders with different mic configurations, from m/s, to surround to a combo of omni/cardiod.

For someone like me, that wants to simply place the unit in the room using the onboard mics, what units would you recommend for the most natural, dimensional sound.  Sometimes I'm in close proximity to what is being recorded, but more often than not I'm in rooms of varying sizes, some with considerable natural echo.

Yes, I'm in the camp of people who think pretty much all internals are "crap", with the caveat that it depends what you're recording.  As noted above, with quieter material (i.e., not amplified rock) these things like the M10 and others can probably do a decent job. There's nothing inherently wrong with inexpensive omnidirectional mic capsules like what are in the R-09HR and the M10; heck the Church Audio mics everyone fluffs endlessly are themselves based on a very inexpensive mic element. 

BUT Church Audio and other low-cost mics used for taping modify those inexpensive components or add appropriate other modifications to the signal chain to make them acceptable for recording amplified music.  They can actually take high sound pressure levels (SPL).  Ignore the published specs on these recorders; they won't tell you anything (i.e., if it says it can take 110 or 120dB SPL, it's lying). 

Placed properly, if they aren't overloaded, some of these recorders can do a fine job.  Onstage jazz, for example. Or there was an acoustic show I went to a few years ago, with my Schoeps back by the board and some other guy running an M10 up closer to the stacks. Haven't heard his pull, but if people near him were quiet enough, his pull might well be better than mine. 

But if you intend to record amplified rock, these internal mics will almost certainly distort. 

[hoppedup]

I steered some folks on Yarn's fan forum toward the Tascam DR-08. It makes passable internal recordings in the right conditions and can be had for $70 at B&H: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/673340-REG/Tascam_DR_08_DR_08_Portable_Digital_Audio.html

Here's a recent show from one of those guys: http://archive.org/details/Yarn2012-07-19

I just listened all the way through and it's not bad. A lot of folks just don't want to spend a lot of money or just want to occasionally tape a band. It is one of the few small digital recorders with cards.

[randelph]

OP here.  The recordings several of you posted (thanks) are of the quality that I was speaking of.  It wasn't so much the distortion, frequency characteristics, etc., that I don't like, as much as the overall sound which sounds a bit indistinct and like it's coming from a distance.

Basically what I'd like to know is if some of the fancy mic configurations available today capture what you, the listener are hearing at that place in the room, as compared to being a slightly hollow facsimile like most of my recordings using the internal mics sound like.

I'm intrigued by the Roland R-26, cause you can capture from both the omni and cardiod stereo microphones and mix them together after the fact as desired.  Some of the Zoom recorders feature mid/side recording using the built-in mics, and I'd be curious to know the results of that, as well as some of them use 4 mics at once, supposedly for more of a sound that upon playback sounds like you were sitting right there in the room.

There was mention of battery packs helping recording quality?  I use plug in power whenever possible.

@acidjack: I wouldn't bother to modify an older recorder like the R-09; it's long in the tooth!  I'd rather have a stock unit that sounds good to start with. 

[LikeASong]

If distortion is your main concern, I have to say that I haven't been able to make my (well, not longer "mine" but you get me) Zoom Q3 HD internals distort EVER, and I've recorded the loudest sources with it.  I also once made a recording where I was taping with the CA14's (cards) > CA 9100 ST, and then pulled the jack off the recorder and let the recording run with the internals for a good minute or two. It was surprising to see how well did the internals do compared with the CA14's, given it was a LOUD rock show at a club and I was like 2 meters from the big PA stacks. Sure the internals didn't have as much as dynamic range and clarity as the 14's, but you'll be surprised how well they do against them.  I will post that sample tomorrow!

[Gutbucket]

[snip] sounds a bit indistinct and like it's coming from a distance.

Basically what I'd like to know is if some of the fancy mic configurations available today capture what you, the listener are hearing at that place in the room, as compared to being a slightly hollow facsimile like most of my recordings using the internal mics sound like. [snip]

External mics, well placed (often significantly closer to the source than the original listener was for anything acoustic, PA amplified is more variable) and in an appropriate configuration (which often varies depending on the situation) is the secret to the bolded statement above if targeting speaker playback or listening by others.  If for your own listening over headphones, look into binaural recording with miniature omnis placed in your ears for an easier and less costly 'time machine, you were/are there experince'.  That is really the only way to reporduce something close to the actual sound that was entering your ears at the time.  Internal mics can make decent and enjoyable recordings in knowlegable or lucky hands, but will rarely produce the bolded experience.  Simply the wrong configuration and not enough flexibility.

If OK with lesser goals and using internals is a must, choose a recorder which uses directional internal mics.  Omnis simply will not work well as internal stereo mic configuration since they can never be spaced far enough apart on the machine or baffled well enough to make up for their close proximity to each other.

[randelph]

I've been listening to audio demos of the Zoom H2n and it sounds better, for capturing live sound (rehearsals, gigs), from the internal mics, than anything I've heard so far. 

@gutbucket: I know the binaurals are optimized for headphone use, but I would think they would be better even over regular speakers than any of the internal speakers. 

What kind of external microphone setup does it take to capture that, "This is what it sounded like" sound quality?  It'd be great if there was a 1-point stereo mic that did a great job.

[bryonsos]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=157011.0

[Gutbucket]

Not a popular opinion here, but of the internal mics I've heard on inexpenive recorders, of jamming band practice in a house type stuff, the H2n has been one of the better ones.  I haven't really heard that many of them though.

Binaural recording technique means putting the mics IN your ears.  It is highly personalized to your 'ear-print' and often only sounds 'spine-tinglinly-real!' to you and often souns wierd to everyone else with different shaped ear folds- sort of like wearing someone elses perscription glasses. To get it really right you need to compesate for the response of the microphones and  headphones you use as well.  To do it scientifically right you go even farther and use special mic extension probes that rest next to your ear-drums.  Technically that's the closest way to re-create the 'you are there' aural experince in the sense of recreating the same soundfield that entered your ears when the recording was made. 

What are commonly called Binarual mics are simply miniature omnis which can be used for any omni recording technique including simple binaural recording with the mics in your outer ear.  Not many here record music binaurally, more wear them outside their ears often called HRTF method around here (less personalized to you, usually better sounding to everyone else and over speakers).  But you can also space them wide or medium distances (A-B), mount absorbant baffles between them, or boundary mount them on hard surfaces.  Lots of options.  None of them very good too far back in reverberant rooms.

Unfortunately there is no one mic or one that works everywhere, everytime.  Or maybe that's fortunate, it makes figuring out how to do it more interesting if you enjoy that kind of fun.

[ilduclo]

 

I have a d50 and have made a couple of really good recording with the internals, a couple of just Ok ones, too, the unit WILL handle the high spl's FYI
 

[acidjack]

OP here.  The recordings several of you posted (thanks) are of the quality that I was speaking of.  It wasn't so much the distortion, frequency characteristics, etc., that I don't like, as much as the overall sound which sounds a bit indistinct and like it's coming from a distance.

Basically what I'd like to know is if some of the fancy mic configurations available today capture what you, the listener are hearing at that place in the room, as compared to being a slightly hollow facsimile like most of my recordings using the internal mics sound like.

I'm intrigued by the Roland R-26, cause you can capture from both the omni and cardiod stereo microphones and mix them together after the fact as desired.  Some of the Zoom recorders feature mid/side recording using the built-in mics, and I'd be curious to know the results of that, as well as some of them use 4 mics at once, supposedly for more of a sound that upon playback sounds like you were sitting right there in the room.

There was mention of battery packs helping recording quality?  I use plug in power whenever possible.

@acidjack: I wouldn't bother to modify an older recorder like the R-09; it's long in the tooth!  I'd rather have a stock unit that sounds good to start with.

I didn't suggest the Church Audio "micsketeer" mod and you won't find me recommending CA products on this board again.

The R-26 would be a huge waste of money.  Having a whole bunch of internal mics doesn't solve your problem at all; it just adds more crappy mics to the mix.  I don't know if you're running openly or not, but if not, your only real option with one of these recorders is in your pocket on your shirt - and unless you are 7ft tall, that means the mics are blocked by people around you. With external mics, you can run them on glasses, in a hat, etc. which will get you closer to ideal placement, height-wise. 

For the price of that R-26 (500 bucks) you could buy a nice, versatile used setup in the Yard Sale on this board, or even new from the Sound Professionals.  I'd consider something like the Audio Technica U853s and a battery box plus the Edirol you already have. http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4U   

ilduclo makes a good point; the Sony D50 has decent internals.  It still needs to be stand-mounted for optimal placement (horizontal, pointing forward; kind of tough to do in a shirt pocket) and it also costs 400 bucks. For that you could have a better setup that involved external mics.

[randelph]

@ gutbucket:
So, if it makes it too much of a personal thing like prescription glasses with the binaural mics inside your ears, then I would imagine there would be advantage to the Roland CS-10EM, which is large enough that the capsule is actually outside your ear, compared to the nifty SP-TFB-2, which are so small they actually sit in your ear.  If I got binaurals I would experiment with mounting them on a hat as well.

When I go to jam sessions I'm playing a lot of different instruments: sometimes loud drums (djembe), oftentimes flutes and recorders (which can be piercing, at least when I'm trying to be heard in a jam and am unamplified), and keyboards.  I'm looking to capture these fantastic sessions unobtrusively, and at the indoor jam sessions, I would simply get a feed from the board, and run the built-in mics as well (4-track).  But for sessions in the park (which oftentimes has amplified guitars, other instruments, and lots of drums), I want something that I'm wearing and will record from my point of view.  Not totally crazy  about binaurals, cause it means my head is constantly changing the direction of the stereo field, but like you said, they're simply omnis that can be mounted wearever you like.

@ byronsos:
That mic is way out of my price range.  For my purposes and price range, what i'd be looking for is something like
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-ECM-DS70P-Electret-Condenser-Microphone/dp/B00006HOLL/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343419080&sr=8-1&keywords=mini+stereo+microphone

Basically I want a one-point stereo mic that captures with a good stereo image to be small enough I can mount it on a hat or lapel, and under $200.

@ Acidjack:
I'm probably a bit different than a lot of guys here- I'm constantly taping jams, no stealth recording here, and am less likely to fuss with everything if I've got alot of pieces to deal with, hence my interest in something like the H2n and R26 that could possibly get the job done with the internal mics (together with a board feed).  Those Audio Technica U853s look sweet- I'll research them more, though if I'm going to the extra setup involved with external mics, I prefer one-point mics for the convenience, and because I want something that can be hat mounted or binaurals

[bryonsos]

I was being a bit tongue and cheek, it is a great mic. In all seriousness, I've been really impressed with the Countryman B3s. I'm running them > CA-Ugly > M10. You could get a set plus a battery box ~$400.

[acidjack]

@ Acidjack:
I'm probably a bit different than a lot of guys here- I'm constantly taping jams, no stealth recording here, and am less likely to fuss with everything if I've got alot of pieces to deal with, hence my interest in something like the H2n and R26 that could possibly get the job done with the internal mics (together with a board feed).  Those Audio Technica U853s look sweet- I'll research them more, though if I'm going to the extra setup involved with external mics, I prefer one-point mics for the convenience, and because I want something that can be hat mounted or binaurals

If by "jams" you mean like band practices, then yes, you are a little different than some.  Internal mics are "less bad" for that, esp since you can optimally place the recorder.

If you want a one-point mic and size is no object, I'd look into a Studio Projects LSD2 used.  Or even easier, an Audio Technica 825, if you can find one used (they're discontinued), which can run off phantom or batteries, or the newer AT 2022 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AT2022?utm_source=none&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&gclid=CI2HqO75urECFUXc4AodnQYATw

[randelph]

@Byronsos:
That's funny, 'cause once upon a time I did recording for motivational speakers and had a couple of Sony ECM-44bs.  They're over $220 now!  Besides having a monsterously long cord, they also had an inline AA battery to power them.  I sold them a year ago, not anticipating this kind of use.

The Countryman B3's are in the ballpark, esp. as they can handle high spl and are small and apparently have a good reputation for good quality sound- I know their tiny headset mics are well spoken of. But in keeping with wanting a minimalist setup that I will actually use, I'd prefer something like the Sony ECM-DS70P I mentioned in the last post, or something that has a binaural mic setup: 2 mics, 1 cord, one input for the recorder.  I also wonder if I'm going to get more realistic results using a cardioid. 

@ Acidjack:
It's the outdoor music jams that I need microphones for, though I have to say that with proper fundage I would love to have any of the mics you listed, esp. the 2022 for the price.  I've got an AT 822 that I've had forever, and unfortunately it's busted at the moment.  I pulled the windscreen off and found 2 out of 6 wires had pulled off their solder joints.  I soldered them back in place, but for some reason the whole mic, which powers off an AA, has pretty low output.  It's beat to shit though- the threads holding the battery sleeve in place are toast, the foam in the windscreen foam is crumbly, and like I said, the output is un-useably low.

Basically in the outdoor drum circles I go to on a regular basis, the volume level goes from super loud drums (including me at times), all the way down in volume to guitarcentric jams (there's some surprisingly good guitar players) playing at moderate levels, with me on my flutes/vox playing into a mic> amp (SM57 >little 10" battery powered crate).

I want a super simple setup for these outdoor jams that would just be a stereo feed for my pocketed recorder, something I could wear in some way- hat, in ear, on jacket, etc., so that as I move around in the jam playing different instruments, I get a good representation of what I'm playing and the whole group. Not having tried this setup, I'm concerned/wondering if it's going to pick-up too much of my flutes/vox/drums relative to the rest of the jam given their proximity.

Another option, riskier in these settings, would be having a 4 track recorder sitting by the amp to record the amp output (which the Crate doesn't have unfortunately), and a small, unobtrusive mic that hopefully wouldn't be seen, to capture the rest of the jam.

Thanks everyone for all your input! 

[bryonsos]

You can easily run B3s binaural, or near binaural mounted on your glasses, hat etc. Mine are terminated to a single mini plug, with a 2.2k mod to help with higher SPLs. Any of the resident cable jockeys can do this for you. For the money, you can't do much better IMHO.

[earmonger]

That Sony mic is really for the uninformed. Along with its considerable self-noise, it doesn't pick up bass below 100 Hz--that's around the G at the bottom of the bass clef. I would also doubt that there's much of a stereo image.

Instead, you should go with the best little omnis you can afford. Even something like the Sound Professionals BMC-2--the size of pencil erasers, easily clipped to hat/glasses/shirt collar--will sound much better than the Sony one-point, and cost about the same (actually just a little more if you get them with the clips, which you'll probably need).  They're also smaller than the Sony, and because they are omni they are pretty forgiving if you move around. 

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-2

Depending on how loud things get, you might have to add a battery box, which would be another $59--but I wouldn't trust the Sony's claims of 110dB maximum anyway. 

Or save up for those itty-bitty B3s...

[Red Boink]

Sony pcm d1.

[newplanet7]

Sony pcm d1.

He has stated he can't afford the price.

[Red Boink]

Oh, jeez, just answering the question posted.

[furburger]

Tascam, Tascam, Tascam...

[rocksuitcase]

You can easily run B3s binaural, or near binaural mounted on your glasses, hat etc. Mine are terminated to a single mini plug, with a 2.2k mod to help with higher SPLs. Any of the resident cable jockeys can do this for you. For the money, you can't do much better IMHO.

Another plug for the Countrymans quality/value. A west coast taping buddy used to use a pair for 
Also, I have a friend who used to work for Carl Countryman and they are certainly designed for what we do.

[bombdiggity]

It may not be helpful but to the extent you're considering externals it is a mystery to me why these are no longer made:

http://www.roguestream.net/RS33-1065Mic.htm

They were like $30.  Best cheap mic ever.  They can handle any amount of volume and sound good on quiet stuff too.  Tiny, portable, AA battery self powered, somewhat directional but also adjustable.  Just plug it in and set it down pointed toward the action and you'd be golden. 

I imagine they're hens teeth but may show up on ebay or somewhere from time to time.  The problem may be getting one that still works. 

[voltronic]

I have to agree with others here - you're much better off with external mics, even cheap ones, versus even the best internals.  One reason is that internals are often X/Y, which is very rarely the best choice for capturing any kind of natural stereo image.  Alternately, you get internal omnis that are much too close together.  Either way, you get a mostly mono recording unless you're in the exact position for that arrangement to work (which is doubtful).  Any kind of externals allow you so much more flexibility with placement so you actually have the opportunity to get the best sound, instead of being locked in to the highly compromised setup you get with internals.

If you need small, something like the Sony M10, a battery box, and and the AT853 wired for plug in power are a great combo.  Darktrain frequently has them for sale in a variety of configurations.  For your drum circle, a pair of omnis would be good as suggest mentioned, either spaced 40-60cm in a stand or HRTF.  Check out the Naiant X-X, great bang for the buck, and Jon can set then up any way you need.

If you can afford to go with something a little bit larger, you'd be hard pressed to do better than the Tascam DR-70D, usually around $250.  The big advantage is 4 XLR inputs, allowing you the flexibility of 4 channel recording down the road.  Gutbucket can share all kinds of ideas for interesting multi-mic surround techniques he uses, and while you may not want or need that right now, it's nice to have the option later.