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Author Topic: Rode NT4?  (Read 13438 times)

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Offline carpa

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Re: Rode NT4?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2009, 05:07:38 AM »
Thank you digifish for the intormation, and thank Dsatz sor the explanation.

One question for Dsatz (or others, of course;only, as I read here, dsatz is very expert in classical recordings) just to help me in the choice I'll have to make in order to get better recordings out of my R09hr than the built in mics. I am a professional classical pianist, and I know that a very sophisticated gear -and a strong know-how-is requested to pull out great recordins; my aims are just to have a not-that-bad result from my own concerts for personal use (putting somethin on a website or just hear what I did in concert) without the concern of taking too much gear with me and spending extra time in positioning, listening and so on.
Most of my work is in being concentrated, "understand" the instrument I'm playing on, etc.; that's why I'm looking at the compromise brouht by stereo microphones, but I'm sure I don't have to explain it to you.

Talking about  stereo mics like Rode nt4, or the new AudioTechnica at8022, or Beyerdynamics (there are a couple of models), they have the possibility of being battery powered (and usually a 5pin to 1/8 minijack is used) or phantom powered (and xlr's are used).

One thing is powering a microphone, another is the balanced path, though most of the times throuh a balanced cable  phantom power is delivered.
I used to have a Sony ECM 979 microphone, designed for broadcast; it worked only with battery, but the supplied cable was 5pin to L and R xlrs.
I connected this mic to a sony dat 1/8 mic input using two line matching transformers (A95UF) from Shure, which -I was told- take the balanced signal and come out each with a mono 1/4 jack(male or female, there is the choice); then into the deck with a two mono-to stereo cable.
What do these little devices to the signal?In other words are they worth using  or is better to use a 5pin to 1/8 minijack cable, like the one supplied by Rode or others?
Apart from all this (excuse me for taking advantage of your patience and kindness) what woud you suggest as the best choice for me between the mics I indicated, or others I don'k know of? I don't have any limit in placement, going from inside the instrument to farther if needed, as long as it's me playing and there is no sthealting need.
thank you very much.
c



Offline DSatz

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Re: Rode NT4?
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2009, 01:06:15 PM »
carpa, you seem to be actually interested in all this recording stuff, so let's talk. First of all, I own some cheap stereo microphones and some very expensive ones, but nothing in the in-between range that you're exploring. So I can't say much about the models you mentioned, except that those are all reputable brands. If you're near the point of buying something, let me know what it is and we can look at the spec sheet, just to make sure that there isn't some technical aspect that would make it really inappropriate for you.

About whether stereo mikes are a compromise: Probably, but it depends. They can definitely be convenient, depending to a large extent on what accessories are available for mounting them on a mike stand or suspending them from cables in a hall. Sonically, the main consideration is that most are designed for making "coincident" (single-point) stereo recordings with directional capsules. You might or might not prefer that approach to stereo recording in general. It was a favorite in Europe for a long time, starting in the early days of stereo in the 1950s and 60s, because coincident stereo recordings are inherently "mono-compatible." That is, if you sum the left and right channels you'll get a plausible mono recording, very similar to what you'd have gotten by placing a single microphone where the stereo microphone actually was.

By contrast, if you use a "spaced microphone" setup, because the sound reaches the two microphones at differing times, you can't sum the channels into mono without causing a lot of cancellation and coloration--a general loss of overall goodness. The thing is, mono listening in the IPod era (and the more long-established "stereo-system-in-your-car" era) isn't as prevalent as it was back then. It's still a consideration--but not necessarily big enough to force your choice of an approach, the way it was for some record companies and broadcasters in the 50s and 60s. Anyway the arrival-time differences are less drastic with a solo instrument than they are with, say, a full orchestra and chorus.

It turns out that for piano recording, a "spaced microphone" approach can give you some very tasty goodies, in part because you then get to use omnidirectional microphones which generally deliver much fuller low-frequency pickup than the typical directional capsules of a one-point stereo mike. Also, being spaced apart, the microphones produce much greater, and more sonically interesting, left-versus-right differences ("decorrelated" sound energy) at low frequencies--the main key to spaciousness in a recording.

On the other hand, stereo recordings made with spaced microphones tend to be rather "swimmy" and indistinct as far as the apparent position of the sound source is concerned. But people respond to them in a fundamentally different way from coincident recordings. Perhaps the difficulty in localizing anything makes folks listen more for color, I dunno.

Normally the first choice any engineer would make in choosing a stereo miking technique is whether you want to go for a stable stereo image and mono compatibility or for the more "oceanic" or "enveloping" type of stereo. For piano recording either option is viable. There are also some options in between which I'm quite fond of (e.g. "wide cardioid" capsules spaced a relatively short distance apart). That said, your need to focus on delivering the performance may well force you to choose quick, easy setup over anything else. But depending on how interested you are in the quality of recorded sound, you might want to become aware of these issues.

Finally, let me mention one further two-microphone stereo recording technique that might be of interest to you: M/S. M/S is a form of coincident recording, so it can be made with many types of coincident stereo microphone--though not all, since it requires one of the microphones to have a "figure-8" (bidirectional) pickup pattern. The point is, though, that you can set up an M/S microphone pair at a plausible point and make your recording--then once it's in the can, you can adjust certain aspects of the pickup "retroactively." That's a definite plus IF you have the time to spend choosing your favorite ratio of M to S in playback.

(For completeness: Any other coincident stereo recording can also be post-processed in this way, but the processing then requires one extra step: converting the L/R stereo signals into M/S format. M/S miking directly delivers the ingredients needed for this type of post-processing.)

So that's some background info, which may not help you at all with your practical situation of the moment, but I hope that long-term, it will help equip you to deal with the relationship between the miking method and what you hear and feel as you listen to a stereo recording.

--best regards
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 01:18:35 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline carpa

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Re: Rode NT4?
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2009, 03:46:03 PM »
Thank you very much for your considerations, wich can be of great utility indeed. I know that omnis would sound better, and I'm not excluding this possibility. In this case I would probably address my attention to those kind of little caps (not DPA or Schoepps; they cost too much!)  that can be battery powered in an easy way; a light stand for positioning the caps -let's say - 60 cm apart wouldn't be a big issue if the "whole thing" turns to be easy.

I know something in theory about M-S; the Sony mic I used to have was an M-S with only internal matrix and a pot on the front allowing to move the stereo spread from 0 (mono) to 150 or 180 degrees. Nothing extraordinary, of course, but it was quite good for me until it broke down.

If you have 5 minutes you can go to this page http://www.akademus.it/presentazione.php?id_art=89   then click on the button "repertorio" on the left; there are five or six pages of repertoire list with the possibility to listen to many live extracts I recorded with this microphone. The quality is far from being professional, as for the gear itself as for the positioning varying from time to time; it's just to have an idea on a certain "audibility" below which I wouldn't like to tape.
Thank you really again,
c

Offline choros

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Re: Rode NT4?
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2011, 07:08:36 AM »
If you are set on the NT4 and need to record from a distance you can purchase a pair of the studio projects C4 hyper card capsules, these fit and function on the NT4 quite well.  The hyper will give you a better stereo recording angle for concert field recording...

I was just reading this old thread. Just to be clear for people researching this in the future - ASFAIK the NT4 capsules are permanently attached to the body and can NOT be changed out with others like the NT5's can. I sold my NT4 a bit ago but was researching the Busman stereo mic. Thanks.


Jay
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 07:20:18 AM by choros »

Offline mepaca

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Re: Rode NT4?
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2011, 10:40:33 AM »
the NT4 capsules are permanently attached to the body and can NOT be changed out with others like the NT5's can.


This is not true. You can remove the caps.

Offline choros

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Re: Rode NT4?
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2011, 01:20:55 PM »
Hmmm....I'm sorry if I'm wrong. I was trying to clarify something and now I've made it more confusing. I had an NT4 and sold it. I didn't see any way to remove the caps and was told that I could not. Even though the modular caps are listed on some store sites as for use with NT4 and NT5 I was told that they can't be used with the NT4. Have you removed the NT4 caps?

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Rode NT4?
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2011, 03:08:32 PM »
You just unscrew them.

As reported the SP C4 caps fit on perfectly. I have used the hypers on my NT5.

If the stereo spread is not enough due to the 90° pattern, Nick of Nickspicks recommends the following:
W/the NT4, you can take the stereo signal in post, encode it to raw M-S and then re-mix it w/the width of your desire and decode back to stereo. (The free Voxengo mid side plug in will do this with most audio editors).

AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline choros

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Re: Rode NT4?
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2011, 03:16:10 PM »
You just unscrew them.

As reported the SP C4 caps fit on perfectly. I have used the hypers on my NT5.

If the stereo spread is not enough due to the 90° pattern, Nick of Nickspicks recommends the following:
W/the NT4, you can take the stereo signal in post, encode it to raw M-S and then re-mix it w/the width of your desire and decode back to stereo. (The free Voxengo mid side plug in will do this with most audio editors).

I think I'm an idiot.  :(   I'm sorry for bringing this up. I got some bad info apparently and I never really tried hard enough to unscrew them I guess. And now after looking at pics of the NT4 it looks like they can be unscrewed. Can I delete my posts and go home now?  :-\ Again, I really apologize.

Jay

 

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