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Author Topic: 'Warm' mic recommendations?  (Read 5947 times)

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Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: 'Warm' mic recommendations?
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2012, 12:34:47 PM »
Sounds to me like you need better cardioid mics. Frankly, CSC's just don't sound that great. I assume the Church Audio cards would sound a lot better, but I haven't used them myself.

CA's seem to get a lot of love here. I may need to look into them.

So if the Tinybox is not the solution for warmth , then what are the main benefits to using it?

Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: 'Warm' mic recommendations?
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2012, 01:36:11 PM »
The main benefit to tinybox is powering microphones of any type, second benefit is gain, lastly is output options such as the capability to drive high or low impedance headphones, decode/encode mid-side, etc.


Thanks.
I don't want to clog up the thread with my questions on tinybox since the main question was 'warm mics'
I can post over on the pre-amp page or Team Naiant page.


Still on topic, does anyone know what happened to marcsounds mics?

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: 'Warm' mic recommendations?
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2012, 06:26:17 PM »
The main reason I moved off of CSBs right now is I mainly do FOB outdoors these days with my mics connected to the front of the table\stand what have you that the engineers are using.
The CSBs picked up their conversations between songs. Haven't had the same experience with CSCs.
So I do think some of what I miss is the warmth of CSBs (and my old Sony D7 and D8), I'd like to offset that somehow.

As others have mentioned "warmth" is simply too vague a term to prove helpful.  Any number of factors could contribute to your dissatisfaction with the recordings:  mics, location, configuration, etc.  (If your'e attaching the mics to a table, odds are their low placement will significantly and negatively impact the sound.)

From your description above, I suspect you're missing the CSB's flatter frequency response and more open, natural polar pattern.  Relative to the the CSB's, the CSC's aren't as flat, rolling off on the low end, having a "slight frequency rise" across the 40 Hz - 18 kHz range, and including a small high frequency peak of ~2 dB between 9 - 12 kHz.  (This per the CS website.)  A bit hard to tell how different the frequency response is between the two since as far as I can tell CS doesn't publish frequency response graphs, and it's difficult to define "slight frequency rise".  Additionally, the CSCs have a more closed polar pattern, which will impact their sonic characteristics.  FWIW, the CSCs are probably my least-favorite cardioid (to put it politely).

How about posting a sample of a CSB recording you like, and one of a CSC recording you don't like?  I suspect many TSers here have heard more than their share of recordings from both sets of mics and may be able to provide input like:  "yep, typical CSB / CSC sound", or "nope, your CSB / CSCs shouldn't sound that way", etc.

Also, check out sample recordings of other mics in your price range -- perhaps the AT853s, Church Audio CA-11s and -14s. -- and see how you like them.

Ultimately, for me it boils down to:  I do not think a preamp or recorder will address the differences you hear between the CSB and CSC, so I'd skip thinking about spending money on anything other than an alternative pair of mics.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 06:27:57 PM by Brian Skalinder »
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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: 'Warm' mic recommendations?
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2012, 08:16:52 PM »
There is nothing vague about it - if you want the warmest rig around, crotch a 722.

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Offline Scooter123

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Re: 'Warm' mic recommendations?
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2012, 11:59:57 PM »
Get on the Dime or another BT, and listen to current recordings and develop a list of your favorite mics. 
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Re: 'Warm' mic recommendations?
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2012, 01:57:54 AM »
Get on the Dime or another BT, and listen to current recordings and develop a list of your favorite mics.

Archive is another good resource...

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Offline jlykos

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Re: 'Warm' mic recommendations?
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2012, 11:33:34 AM »
I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't think that the Church Audio and Audio-Technica mics are "light years" better than the CSBs.  In fact, I think that they sound much more similar than different.  I think that a lot of the difference is due to the fact that the CA and AT mics can have cardioid patterns, but the CSBs are omnis and the CSCs are cardioid but sound awful.  It all depends on how you use them and on what capsules you use.  In my view, the only mics that are a significant step up from the CSB, AT, and CA are the dpa 4060/4061 and Countryman B3 (I haven't heard too many Nevaton recordings), and those cost two to three times as much as the other three options.

For the open-air music festivals that that the OP says that he tapes, the CSBs may be better than the other two options because he does not have do deal with the directionality and frequency response issues of a club.  At least I always prefer the sound of omnis outside to that of cardioids; others will have different opinions (and theirs will be, of course, wrong).

Stealthing presents a different sort of challenges, however.  In clubs, cardioids may be a better choice, but you can make perfectly good recordings with omnis if you can roll off the bass and process the recording a little bit afterwards.  In arenas, cardioids are definitely the better choice.

I would suggest looking on DIME and etree for recordings made with the various microphone choices and in recording situations similar to the ones in which you intend to tape.  After listening to them, you can approach the situation with more information.

Personally, if I wanted to throw a little bit of cash at the problem to get "warmer" recordings, I would keep the CSBs while selling the CSCs and the recorder, and pick up a Sony M10.  The M10 has a good microphone preamplifier, an excellent A/D converter, and would likely be a warmer-sounding device than the current recorder.  If you have your heart set on keeping the recorder, you may want to see if you can pick up a Church Audio preamplifier instead.
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: 'Warm' mic recommendations?
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2012, 05:56:30 PM »
I'd like to take a step back for clarification.  I think one of the reasons you're getting suggestions all across the board:  there isn't common understanding of what it is you like and dislike with your current gear.  In some posts, you're very happy with your recordings from both the CSBs and CSCs.  And in others, you find them lacking.  As I re-read all of your posts in the thread, I think what you're saying is roughly the following:
  • You're generally pleased with your CSBs.
  • You don't like that the CSBs pick up relatively close-proximity environmental sounds (like nearby sound engineers / people talking).
  • You added CSCs to your gear to address the issue above (#2), and are pleased with the way the CSCs minimize relatively close-proximity environmental sounds.
  • However, when using the CSCs, you miss the "warmth" (as yet undefined) of the CSBs.
Have I summarized your perspective reasonably well?

If no, please clarify?

But if yes, I don't think the core issue in #4 is related to preamp or ADC / recorder.  It's the CSCs.  So consider:
  • Keeping your current preamp / ADC / recorder.
  • Keeping the CSBs for situations in which omnis are appropriate (e.g. when you're not terribly concerned about people talking loudly nearby).  After all, you quite like them aside from when they pick up talking nearby.
  • Switching to a better pair of cardioids for situations in which cardioids are appropriate (e.g. when you're more concerned about people talking loudly nearby).  Whether or not they'll deliver the "warmth" you find missing, no one can answer until we've defined "warmth".  But I bet there's pretty broad agreement a pair of cardioids better than the CSCs -- while minimizing nearby environmental sounds, as desired -- will provide substantially better results.
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Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: 'Warm' mic recommendations?
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2012, 03:11:57 PM »
Yes. Exactly. You summed it up perfectly.

I love my DR-2D and would only consider parting with it if a better machine with the same options came along.
So, it sounds like better carioids are the way top go.

Everyone seems to really like the CAs, maybe thats how I should go.
Or maybe have a non-stealthy type of mic for those times where I have permission to tape.
And use the CSBs in those other type of situations
Decisions....

Offline raymonda

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Re: 'Warm' mic recommendations?
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2012, 06:26:56 PM »
The later is the way to go. Pick up some nicer full size mics.

Offline MJ

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Re: 'Warm' mic recommendations?
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2012, 12:02:27 AM »
I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't think that the Church Audio and Audio-Technica mics are "light years" better than the CSBs.  In fact, I think that they sound much more similar than different.  I think that a lot of the difference is due to the fact that the CA and AT mics can have cardioid patterns, but the CSBs are omnis and the CSCs are cardioid but sound awful.  It all depends on how you use them and on what capsules you use.  In my view, the only mics that are a significant step up from the CSB, AT, and CA are the dpa 4060/4061 and Countryman B3 (I haven't heard too many Nevaton recordings), and those cost two to three times as much as the other three options.

For the open-air music festivals that that the OP says that he tapes, the CSBs may be better than the other two options because he does not have do deal with the directionality and frequency response issues of a club.  At least I always prefer the sound of omnis outside to that of cardioids; others will have different opinions (and theirs will be, of course, wrong).

You are not the only one to feel that the Church Audio and Audio-Technica mics sound more similar than different.  I believe that you can’t go wrong with DPA4061!!
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Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: 'Warm' mic recommendations?
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2012, 11:03:33 AM »
Thanks everyone for their suggestions. I think I am leaning towards the AT853 at this time. The DPA4061 seems to be a great microphone but since it is an omni, I feel I will likely running into the same gripe I have with the CSBs.

The AT853 configurations kinda confuse me and I do not see anything on their website about it?

Is the hanging version 'configurable' (for lack of a better word) enough that I could make it work in 'non-hanging' situations?

There seems to be several different versions of the 853, I would prefer the full size version as I would be using them for non-stealth recording.
Which one do people recommend?

I also don't see any on the loaner page. Anyone willing to loan?

Offline acidjack

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Re: 'Warm' mic recommendations?
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2012, 11:17:15 AM »
Thanks everyone for their suggestions. I think I am leaning towards the AT853 at this time. The DPA4061 seems to be a great microphone but since it is an omni, I feel I will likely running into the same gripe I have with the CSBs.

The AT853 configurations kinda confuse me and I do not see anything on their website about it?

Is the hanging version 'configurable' (for lack of a better word) enough that I could make it work in 'non-hanging' situations?

There seems to be several different versions of the 853, I would prefer the full size version as I would be using them for non-stealth recording.
Which one do people recommend?

I also don't see any on the loaner page. Anyone willing to loan?

If you are not stealthing, why would you get AT853s?  They're fine mics, but for the price, you can get all manner of full size mics that are better.

That said, for configs of 853s that are pre-made for recording the way we do it, try www.soundprofessionals.com  Look at the model "SP-CMC-4" which is what they cal the AT853.
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Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: 'Warm' mic recommendations?
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2012, 12:44:16 PM »
They were one of the suggested mics for what I am looking for (warmer carioids).
They seem to come in a variety of configurations, so, in cases where I am not stealthing, I would like to use something other than minis.

Offline acidjack

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Re: 'Warm' mic recommendations?
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2012, 01:26:06 PM »
They were one of the suggested mics for what I am looking for (warmer carioids).
They seem to come in a variety of configurations, so, in cases where I am not stealthing, I would like to use something other than minis.

If you want them for stealth and non-stealth, then they're a good choice. For non-stealth only, they are not, since cheap SDCs can be had that sound better.

There is really only one "real" config which is the standard 3-wire config made by Audio Technica, which can be paired with their phantom power adapter.

For what you are doing, I would go to Sound Professionals, have each mic terminated in 3-wire.  Or have both mics custom-terminated in a single 6pin mini-XLR and get a tinybox to work with it - but you'd need to check with Naiant that that's possible.

I would not recommend the miniplug configuration unless you're buying a used set. I had that config, and it worked fine with the 4.7k mod, but it's preferable to power them as intended rather than achieve the high SPL tolerance required by having a mod done. 

Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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