Topic: 480 or 460 Owners; How Best Use Your Caps

[stevetoney]

I am now the proud owner of a full arsenal of caps for my 480 mics.  So, given that I've got options...now how best to use them?

Wondering if present or past 480 or 460 owners could give some thoughts about how you have obtained the best results with your capsules.

Beyond the obvious, is there any particular setups that people are really fond of with these microphones?

Here's what I consider to be 'the obvious' or at least 'rule of thumb' for use of each of these capsules.

  - hypers in boomy rooms
  - hypers when back a ways
  - cards outside
  - cards up close
  - omni's in a great sounding venue
  - omni's for intimate and/or acoustic settings

Thoughts?  Suggestions?

Any particular configuration of the above (ORTF, DIN, X-Y) more successful than others? 

[Shawn]

I like ck62s (and omnis in general) outdoors and on-stage.

[willndmb]

i like 63s in general and use them most of the time
inside/outside - clubs/amps/open air venues
close (10') far (sbd)
din(a) and ab

[grider]

for starters do not run XY, ever, then

hypers inside and in shitty sounding or boomy rooms
cards for most taping applications including outside, in good sounding rooms, on stage placement
split omni's spread as far as possible (I mean as many feet as possible), inside in good sounding rooms
     with quiet audiences, and on stage placement

that covers it

[JackoRoses]

I like the omnis alot but they have their limitations in a noisy crowd.
Cards are what I mostly use in noisy crowds and back a ways.
I just picked up the hypers and ran them for the first time over labor day.
I listened to a little of the recording but overall not impressed as much as I thought I would be.
I need to give it a more honest critical listening though. But first thoughts were I prefer the cards over hypers.
I just ran the healy method for the first time over the weekend about 3.5 4 feet spaced outside FOB
I'm looking forward to hear how that sounded. I usually run AB though on omnis and try and get whatever spacing I can. either on a T-Bar or one on my stand and another attached to something else.

[rowjimmytour]

Since Bean hasn't responded yet:
483> >Forever> >any where and any time accept when I run my 'Ho's.
Peace

[easy jim]

for starters do not run XY, ever

I beg to differ, but only with respect to either: (1) on stage, (2) as the center pair of a 4 mic mix, or (3) in combination w/ a SBD feed.

EDIT: to also add that they may be very useful for off-center positions that are still up close, yet outside of the sweet spot.

[grider]

I would agree with your (1) difference upon further contemplation

[stevetoney]

Since Bean hasn't responded yet:
483> >Forever> >any where and any time accept when I run my 'Ho's.
Peace

He he.  Cute.  Give Bean a break.  He's a positive guy and, obviously, he likes his mics.  I know you were just givin' him some love...TS.com style.

[datbrad]

I have been running 460s since '94, and have tried almost every kind of orientation. Over these many years, I have found the following works best for me:

CK 61 (Indoors FOB or at SBD, outside anywhere)
CK 63 (Indoors at or behind SBD, or any boomy/chatty room from the back, it's cleaner)
CK 62 (Don't own, but have friends that do, and seems best outside with no roof, split 6'-10')

1. XY is not good for regular PA taping from normal positions, FOB or at/behind SBD, but seems a great option for close direct stack taping (for example, bluegrass at places like Acoustic Stage in Hickory with the mics a couple of feet from one stack). Also, great for direct instrument recording like acoustic guitar within a foot or two. I would only use this pattern with the 61s, though.

2. 90 degree DIN is what I always use indoors, or outdoors at/behind SBD, both with the 61s. I have used this with the 63s, but you have to be careful as the narrower pattern is not as linear off axis, and can add coloration and a hollow center image that detracts from any benefit from the hyper pattern.

3. ORFT is what I use outdoors FOB, or indoors only in the most ideal position in the most ideal sounding rooms, so not very often inside. One benefit is the audience is canceled out better, as the music mono sums nicely, but the clapper on one side of you is muted more that if heard better by both mics.

4. NOS is what I use for the 63s, at about 80 degrees when I am in the back, or in a bad sounding place. I use the 63s NOS exclusively to make up for not so great places like the State Theater in Falls Church, VA.

Hope this helps.....Welcome to Team AKG!!!

[stevetoney]

for starters do not run XY, ever, then

Also considering easyjim and girders subsequent comments, getting comments on X-Y was one of the reasons I posted this question.  The reason I ask is that Oade says the following on his website...

****
Coincident Taping Methods  

Coincident techniques are the most popular type for stereo recording. These are most often implemented using directional microphones vertically aligned on a common axis and set at an angle to each other in the horizontal plane.

The advantages this method offers are minimum phase differences between the two capsules for sound sources lying within the horizontal plane. Another is the angular accuracy of the stereo image not being affected by the distance of the microphones from the sound source. All large diaphragm (1 inch and larger) microphones should be used in this manner for satisfying results. Some small diaphragm microphones , most notably the Schoeps Collette series, suffer from a lack of "sense of space" utilizing this method, due to the lack of interchannel delay time. The Microtech Geffel small diaphragm mics do not exhibit this problem. Near coincident techniques are recommended for microphones with these problems, where they can yield very good results.
 
*****

He goes on later to state...

X-Y Techniques for Hypercardiods & Cardioids  

The most commonly used technique is the x-y cardioid and hypercardioid. The microphone pair can be setup with an included angle between 60 and 120 degrees. The angle will determine the apparent width of the stereo image, the amount of reverberant sound and the bass response. The wider the angle the more natural the soundfield up to the point where the angle becomes too great and a hole appears in the center. 90 degrees provides good results with any cardioid or hypercardioid microphone.
 
*****

So, I guess the 480's fall in the same class as Schoeps in the above paragraphs.  If so, I find it interesting that Oade starts this discussion by saying that this technique is the most popular and that X-Y is the most commonly used technique.  

I know that we don't represent the whole world of recording here, but it does seem that these two statements are somewhat contradictory to other statements in his writeup, but also do not agree with the general concensus here on TS.com.  

Seems to me that very few people run X-Y.
 

[T.J.]

nice thread.

i started with the 483's and eventually added a set of 61's about a year ago. i find myself using "the obvious" setups for most situations:

far from stage/bad souding room/most other situations: 63's DINa

10' to 20' from stage/great sounding room: 61's DIN

to be honest with you, i find myself using the hypers 9 times outa 10. most shows i record are PA recordings of bands like moe., biscuits, widespread, etc... I stick with the hypers b/c i find them to be more 'forgiving' than the cards. i has to be a GREAT sounding room i.e. the World Cafe Live for me to break out the cards. or i have to REALLY close to the stage. surprisingly, sometimes i find even the hypers to pack a lot of lowend punch, which makes me want to experiment with bass rolloff at some of the louder shows. i'm too much of a whimp to try it tough  

 

[stevetoney]

split omni's spread as far as possible (I mean as many feet as possible), inside in good sounding rooms
     with quiet audiences, and on stage placement

Sorry if these are noob questions, but if I understand that when running split omni's the most important thing is to get the mics EXACTLY positioned so the source is in the exact center.  

OK, so what about when you're in a smallish room and there are right and left PA speakers?

Also, on split omni, where best to point the mics?

[stevetoney]

can a dpa guy comment in this thread?

Come on in, the waters fine, Moke.

The only reason I directed it to 480 and 460 owners was just that I was mostly interested in the nuances of the CK series capsules, but it's pretty obvious that the subject matter is generically applicable.

[easy jim]

Also, on split omni, where best to point the mics?

Being front address omnis, the ck62 caps should be pointed at the sound source since they are still somewhat directional in the higher frequencies.