Topic: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 4)

[jbosco]

Preliminary info from card testing:

Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC UHS-1 128GB + 64GB    class 10 U3
Sandisk Extreme SDXC UHS-1 64GB class 10 U3

For many cards we tested, we can put the card in a state where its write speed drops too low for full channel count at max FS.   Only these sandisk cards had worst case write speed that meets out needs.

Are you saying these cards are good?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1087560-REG/sandisk_sdsdxn_064g_g46_extreme_sdhc_uhs_1_u3.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/824149-REG/SanDisk_SDSDXPA_064G_A75_Extreme_Pro_64GB_SDHC_SDXC.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1082349-REG/sandisk_sdsdxp_128g_a46_128gb_extreme_pro_uhs_i.html

[ButchAlmberg]

I just completed the survey based on my (positive) experience from Lockn. Recorded 28 hours of 2ch. at 24/48 on a SanDisk micro 32g. NOT recently formatted. V1.11. Anker powered. Haven't heard a hiccup yet.

[tomuo]

Preliminary info from card testing:

Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC UHS-1 128GB + 64GB    class 10 U3
Sandisk Extreme SDXC UHS-1 64GB class 10 U3

For many cards we tested, we can put the card in a state where its write speed drops too low for full channel count at max FS.   Only these sandisk cards had worst case write speed that meets out needs.

Are you saying these cards are good?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1087560-REG/sandisk_sdsdxn_064g_g46_extreme_sdhc_uhs_1_u3.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/824149-REG/SanDisk_SDSDXPA_064G_A75_Extreme_Pro_64GB_SDHC_SDXC.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1082349-REG/sandisk_sdsdxp_128g_a46_128gb_extreme_pro_uhs_i.html

Yes, those are the ones.

The DR-70D is certainly buffering several seconds of data to write to the card, but our preliminary tests don't measure for how long the write speed goes under the limit for the cards that don't meet spec.
If it only drops for a brief second, then jumps back to full speed, the buffer would smooth over the problem.   So, being overly cautious we don't recommend any card that drops under the minimum speed at any moment.   (We can't keep testing it for days on end to see if the write speed dropout is only a second, or it might be 5 seconds in some case)...
We can say with confidence, with the tested OK cards, you won't run into a problem.

[voltronic]

Thanks for the update, Tom.  It's good to see that Tascam is still testing cards, and your explanation helps us understand why the recommended media list is so short.

Please know that we really appreciate your being here (at least most of us do).  I wish Tascam's customer service over email was as responsive; I still have never gotten a reply from them.  Is there any progress on the service email problems?

[stevetoney]

Preliminary info from card testing:

Sandisk Extreme Pro SDXC UHS-1 128GB + 64GB    class 10 U3
Sandisk Extreme SDXC UHS-1 64GB class 10 U3

For many cards we tested, we can put the card in a state where its write speed drops too low for full channel count at max FS.   Only these sandisk cards had worst case write speed that meets out needs.

Are you saying these cards are good?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1087560-REG/sandisk_sdsdxn_064g_g46_extreme_sdhc_uhs_1_u3.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/824149-REG/SanDisk_SDSDXPA_064G_A75_Extreme_Pro_64GB_SDHC_SDXC.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1082349-REG/sandisk_sdsdxp_128g_a46_128gb_extreme_pro_uhs_i.html

Yes, those are the ones.

The DR-70D is certainly buffering several seconds of data to write to the card, but our preliminary tests don't measure for how long the write speed goes under the limit for the cards that don't meet spec.
If it only drops for a brief second, then jumps back to full speed, the buffer would smooth over the problem.   So, being overly cautious we don't recommend any card that drops under the minimum speed at any moment.   (We can't keep testing it for days on end to see if the write speed dropout is only a second, or it might be 5 seconds in some case)...
We can say with confidence, with the tested OK cards, you won't run into a problem.

OK thanks for that explanation about buffer.  Two followup questions, if you don't mind. 

First question is, when the write speed falls under the minimum speed during your testing, what is the resulting effect on the resulting recording?  Digi-noise?  Skipping?  I just want to confirm with 100% certainty that what you're seeing when the speed drops too low is the same as what I'm experiencing in my unit.  Thanks.

The second question is just the engineer in me that's curious...I think some people have commented in this thread that a certain card works fine in their DR680 but not in the DR70D.  Is it a logical conclusion then that there's more buffering memory in the 680 and that's why they're not seeing the same issues on the 680? 

It might make sense that there's more buffering in the 680 since it's got more channels...but it's still strange to think that a 680 writing 6 or 8 channels might not have an issue writing data when the DR70D does.

[tomuo]

OK thanks for that explanation about buffer.  Two followup questions, if you don't mind. 

First question is, when the write speed falls under the minimum speed during your testing, what is the resulting effect on the resulting recording?  Digi-noise?  Skipping?  I just want to confirm with 100% certainty that what you're seeing when the speed drops too low is the same as what I'm experiencing in my unit.  Thanks.

As far as I'm aware, cards that don't meet this threshold are dropped from further testing, so I don't know what the end-world result is of continuing to record in this case.
We are looking at improving this, though I'm not privy to the potential details.

The second question is just the engineer in me that's curious...I think some people have commented in this thread that a certain card works fine in their DR680 but not in the DR70D.  Is it a logical conclusion then that there's more buffering memory in the 680 and that's why they're not seeing the same issues on the 680? 

Unfortunately I don't know, I've not seem the design docs for either products, and no other cases of increased recording failure has been reported so far, so there's no failure report doc yet.   Given that the DR-680 does more channels to start with, it makes sense that it would have a bigger buffer though.
Circumstantial evidence though still points at the card having slowed down since being used previously.  If someone has a card from that exact test, they should do an erase format and try it again, and let us know what card it was (if it was on the DR-680 tested media list).

[willndmb]

I just completed the survey based on my (positive) experience from Lockn. Recorded 28 hours of 2ch. at 24/48 on a SanDisk micro 32g. NOT recently formatted. V1.11. Anker powered. Haven't heard a hiccup yet.

report back when you have done that with 4 ch please

[stevetoney]

Ok guys.  I give up.  It's obvious where this is going with Tascam.  I can't even get a straight answer to the simplest questions without him falling  back to the stock response.

Clearly the only thing we're gonna get out of tascam is to use approved cards and then when those fail they're going to fall back on the response that the approved cards slowed down strategy and tell you to buy a new card. 

Time for me to throw this piece of shit recorder in the garbage.  I can't play this game of hoping my recording came out ok every time I use it.  Especially when tascam has no interest in even helping answer some simple questions to help give me some more information to help me find some silver linings in this situation.  Maybe it's stupid of me to expect such a low cost recorder to operate with a high confidence factor, but that's not too much to ask when this hasn't been an issue for other products in the past.  Tasman SHOULD be considering a product recall. Awards?.  That's laughable. 

Anyway, I have no choice but to buy specific cards, but what happens after i start getting errors with those?. Clearly tascam is then going to say it's old so buy a new one.  I'm not going to pay this game of feeding new cards to this thing only to discover those don't work and getting excuses back about how the reason is that they slowed down. 

Sorry tascam, im the judge and jury and, as of the above response to my simple questions, you blew it with your crappy response to this issue.

Conclusion of this for me is that i wouldn't give this piece of shit to someone else because it's unreliable.  Tascam will NEVER see another dollar of my business.  I'm glad it only cost me $200.

[voltronic]

Ok guys.  I give up.  It's obvious where this is going with Tascam.  I can't even get a straight answer to the simplest questions without him falling  back to the stock response.

Clearly the only thing we're gonna get out of tascam is to use approved cards and then when those fail they're going to fall back on the response that the approved cards slowed down strategy and tell you to buy a new card. 

Time for me to throw this piece of shit recorder in the garbage.  I can't play this game of hoping my recording came out ok every time I use it.  Especially when tascam has no interest in even helping answer some simple questions to help give me some more information to help me find some silver linings in this situation.  Maybe it's stupid of me to expect such a low cost recorder to operate with a high confidence factor, but that's not too much to ask when this hasn't been an issue for other products in the past.  Tasman SHOULD be considering a product recall. Awards?.  That's laughable. 

Anyway, I have no choice but to buy specific cards, but what happens after i start getting errors with those?. Clearly tascam is then going to say it's old so buy a new one.  I'm not going to pay this game of feeding new cards to this thing only to discover those don't work and getting excuses back about how the reason is that they slowed down. 

Sorry tascam, im the judge and jury and, as of the above response to my simple questions, you blew it with your crappy response to this issue.

Conclusion of this for me is that i wouldn't give this piece of shit to someone else because it's unreliable.  Tascam will NEVER see another dollar of my business.  I'm glad it only cost me $200.

Jeez, calm down.  You're starting to sound like someone else here.  Hasn't there been enough flipping out and hyperbole around here the past week already?  Go back and read your response again.  To me, Tom responded to your recent questions as completely as he could given the knowledge he personally has.  That response wasn't the complete one you were looking for - deal with it.  One representative from a company replies that he doesn't know the answer to your engineering question, and you go full out nuclear?  You must be fun at parties.

[Life In Rewind]

Voltronic - your peace keeping is admirable...but Im with tonedeaf on this...I think his take is more reason than rant.

It seems like TASCAM is setting the table for more excuses (your approved card is "worn out")

I'm going to have to go back to my friggin JB3...until something gets ironed out...

Has anyone found any reports of the approved cards failing? (yet)

[Life In Rewind]

So what's everybody doing about the card corrupted recordings?

I'm getting 8 or so spikes per recording (in a 90 minute set for example)

They sound like a CD skip or DAT glitch - and are identical on both channels

So far I've been using Audacity - zooming in on the spike and selecting from the last good sample to the next good one - and just cutting it out.

For the most part, this seems pretty transparent - at least with rock music. Other material may be more revealing.

Im pretty sure some music is being missed in the spike - and not just an interruption.

[aaronji]

Maybe it's stupid of me to expect such a low cost recorder to operate with a high confidence factor, but that's not too much to ask when this hasn't been an issue for other products in the past.  Tasman SHOULD be considering a product recall. Awards?.  That's laughable.

I don't think it is stupid of you at all, and I think your irritation is justified.  Why wouldn't you expect the recorder to operate as advertised?  It has seemed kind of obvious to me, for a while, that Tascam was "excusifying" here, and I posted as much.  The R44 came out in 2008, or maybe 2009, and can record four channels to SD.  Tascam released the DR680 a couple of years later, maybe 2010, and it can record even more channels (also kind of a rocky roll-out there, though).  Sure, it seems that most recorders dislike the occasional card, but I think that the majority of cards of the proper size/speed should work.  If not, that is clearly a case of defective design. 

[ButchAlmberg]

I posted yesterday that my Lockn recordings (2ch 24/48, etc.) appeared good. Check that. At least one file corrupt.

Willndmb, if this data gathering exercise is for 4ch users only, please advise.

[Ozpeter]

What seems significant is the way this recorder has gone from flavour of the month through to rant of the month in a shortish period of time.  That does make one think that something has changed, presumably in the firmware.  The notion that it's down to the cards getting older just doesn't seem likely.  We've all been using memory card multitrack recorders for long enough to know what limitations to expect and what degree of reliability is reasonable.

[stevetoney]

What seems significant is the way this recorder has gone from flavour of the month through to rant of the month in a shortish period of time.  That does make one think that something has changed, presumably in the firmware.  The notion that it's down to the cards getting older just doesn't seem likely.  We've all been using memory card multitrack recorders for long enough to know what limitations to expect and what degree of reliability is reasonable.

That's exactly correct.  I used the recorder quite a bit without problem when I first got it.  Then I installed the latest firmware and I had a couple of glitches, but since this was a new problem that was unreported at the time, I thought the issue was with my USB cable.  So I sold the unit when I decided to buy the Zoom F8 but the new owner immediately had problems with the cards he was using.  After he tried to suss through the issue and got nowhere for about a month, I issued him a refund in good conscience because there's no way I'm selling junk to another ts.com member.  Now I have a recorder that I have no confidence in that's sitting on the shelf with a 0% chance of being used, unless the company that made it tries to actually team up with and help its customers sort through and find the root of this problem to solve this issue, instead of basically bailing out behind stock answers that are IMHO obviously designed to minimize any accountability or acknowledgement of potential fault in design.  I could care less about figuring out if Tascam screwed up...I just want a functioning, reliable recorder and right now Tascam isn't acknowledging that an issue even exists.