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Author Topic: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4  (Read 18261 times)

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Offline Busman Audio

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BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« on: September 01, 2006, 07:31:34 PM »
Busman mics of all kinds>some type of busman modified recorder.

"Just Mod It"

Offline Ryan Sims

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2006, 10:52:33 AM »
Thank you sir.  I look forward to hearing this.
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Offline mmmatt

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2006, 07:53:00 PM »
sorry I'm jumping on this so late.  can somebody open their torrent again?  I am only part way done.

thanks

matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




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Offline mmmatt

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2006, 08:03:56 PM »
rockin now!!!  thatnks to whomever jumped back in for me!!

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




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Offline mmmatt

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2006, 09:25:53 PM »
Chris,
What configs were used on the mics?  There is a huge differnce in the soundstage/image.  almost like NOS (stock) vs DIN (bm).  It is hard to put my finger on it, partly because the sources aren't similarly ballanced l/r but the stock source feels like a slightly larger spread to me, and seems to oscelate some.  Either that or your mods really seem to have a positive impact on the soundstage!  The bm soundstage felt taller too.  Like jeff's voice was about 10 deg higher with the mod... odd comment, I know.
     I thought your mod really brought thoes 140's to life.  Almost a presence bump, but most likely just the neumann's as they are supposed to be.  Same with the low end.  More detail and more meat with your mod.  Both are a little sloppy but for a section recording either isn't too bad really in that regard.  The strings seems to sparkle more with your mod.  A much more realistic responce from the crowd.  You can more easily position cheers and whistles, and the voices seem more clear with your mod.  Seems to be a lot more "air" in the recording too.  Did your mod produce a higher frequency responce?

Overall... night and day Chris.  You did a really nice job!  Makes me regret even MORE selling my r4.  If these are identical configs, then I'm blown away.

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

Offline Shawn

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2006, 09:37:21 PM »
the difference in the vocals is jaw-dropping.

Offline poorlyconditioned

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2006, 04:35:44 AM »
rockin now!!!  thatnks to whomever jumped back in for me!!

Matt

Can someone (?) please seed again?  I need to get this...

Thanks,
  Richard
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Offline bgalizio

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2006, 07:33:22 AM »
I posted this in the other comp thread... the busman R-4 sample is at 24bit, while the stock is at 16bit. I don't think it's valid to compare like that.

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2006, 07:57:22 AM »
rockin now!!!  thatnks to whomever jumped back in for me!!

Matt

Can someone (?) please seed again?  I need to get this...

Thanks,
  Richard


I have it open if you didn't get it yet. 

I posted this in the other comp thread... the busman R-4 sample is at 24bit, while the stock is at 16bit. I don't think it's valid to compare like that.

I also noticed some just funkiness between the two sources on playback.  The stock source is very high in the left channel, while the Busman source is very high in the right, like a total channel reversal.  I also wonder about the whole 24 bit thing, considering both of the files are very nearly the same size, and the Busman file is actually smaller.  My computer does also see it as a 24 bit file, but I wonder what really is going on.
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Offline mmmatt

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2006, 09:24:25 AM »
I didn't catch the 24 bit vs 16 when I reviewed... sorry about that guys.  I really just used my ears.  They are both still 44.1  though.  I'm thinking there is a much greater difference than 24 vs 16 regardless.  I also noted the ballance difference, but for me it is a matter of extending my arm about 18" and turning the ballance knob on my system so nbd.  I would have really liked to see him use a mic splitter also for a true direct comp.  I'm 99% sure that my thoughts would be about the same anyways.  The yonder boys also had a mini-trainwreck in that track too so I was a little surprised he picked that song, although the intro is very revealing.  I'm going to normal both channels of each and convert and then compare again.  It has always been my opinion that a 16bit source is at it's best when recorded in 16 bit, so we'll see if some post processing abuse can make this competition a little more neck and neck.

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

Offline mmmatt

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2006, 10:18:51 AM »
yeah... this comp isn't so good... looking at the wav's makes me think the left channel mic on the stock source is having some issues.  If you look at the wav form on the stock source at 3:02 - 3:12 you can see that the right chanel responded with a lot more dynamics to the heavy bass than the right chanel did.  On the busman source it is very similar left to right.  Maybe the stock pre's aren't very consistant (I never noticed anything like that with mine) but most likely it is the mic IMO.  Chris I think you should split the signal from one pair of  mics to both r-4s and do it right.  Here again I doubt my opinion will change but if that left chan mic on the stock source is bunk, then that would make a big difference.  That might also account for the oscelation I'm hearing.

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

Offline bgalizio

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2006, 10:40:07 AM »
yeah... this comp isn't so good... looking at the wav's makes me think the left channel mic on the stock source is having some issues.  If you look at the wav form on the stock source at 3:02 - 3:12 you can see that the right chanel responded with a lot more dynamics to the heavy bass than the right chanel did.  On the busman source it is very similar left to right.  Maybe the stock pre's aren't very consistant (I never noticed anything like that with mine) but most likely it is the mic IMO.  Chris I think you should split the signal from one pair of  mics to both r-4s and do it right.  Here again I doubt my opinion will change but if that left chan mic on the stock source is bunk, then that would make a big difference.  That might also account for the oscelation I'm hearing.

Matt

Agreed. I noticed this too. A true comp (which we're all waiting for!) would be splitting the mic signal. The same processing would need to be done to each file (ie: 24bit or 16bit with the same dithering scheme). I'd like to hear the difference at 24bit recorded, 16bit dithered, and 16bit recorded if at all possible.

Offline mmmatt

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2006, 11:37:56 AM »
Chris,
If this is a pain to get done, I would suggest contacting brian ska and send the unit out to him.  Brian is the comp King and he has an OADE mod r4 that would be a nice comp also... I think he has now had the mod done??? .  There are a lot of trustworthy r4 owners on this board who would be willing also I'm sure.  Just a suggestion incase you are really busy.  Not to imply you would ever fudge but a impartial 3rd party would be the ultimate in validity.  No question in my mind still that your mods are a HUGE improvement BTW.

matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

Offline bgalizio

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2006, 11:44:38 AM »
No question in my mind still that your mods are a HUGE improvement BTW.

matt

Seconded. If this is anything like the UA-5 mod difference, then we're in great hands!

Offline Busman Audio

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2006, 06:10:07 PM »
Hey guys I have been out of town for a few days but to clarify.

Oops on forgetting the dither but it won't make THAT much of a difference. These were both recorded at 24 bit and as stated pretty much the exact same location and same config. I will try to get some other comps from the weekend. We ran everything for Fri and Sat to do the comps so I have a lot more I can release.


On another note wait until you hear my 4 mic mix with split ADK stpros 15' and 140s ORTF in the center. WOW I think I will have a hard time ever running just 2 channels from now on.

If I can get some time that I don't need the R4 for a while I would be willing to send it to Brain Skalinder if he wants to run comps. I can assure you there is no doctoring done for these though.
Busman mics of all kinds>some type of busman modified recorder.

"Just Mod It"

Offline mmmatt

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2006, 07:17:18 PM »
I can assure you there is no doctoring done for these though.

I tried to make it clear in my post that I believe this whole heartedly.  I've never doubted your integrety Chris.

Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




Canon 24-70 f2.8L, Canon 135 f2L, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 50 f1.8, > Canon 5D or Canon xt (digi) and Canon 1N (film)

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2006, 09:10:25 PM »
I can assure you there is no doctoring done for these though.

I tried to make it clear in my post that I believe this whole heartedly.  I've never doubted your integrety Chris.

Matt

Same here. I think we just wanted to have a clear comp so the listener can say exactly what they do/don't like about the mod/unmod.

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2007, 03:27:30 AM »
hello can somebody help me please. I am searching Busman E mail adress to by a new Edirol R 4 Pro modded from him.  Thanks

Offline OOK

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2007, 07:18:20 AM »
hello can somebody help me please. I am searching Busman E mail adress to by a new Edirol R 4 Pro modded from him.  Thanks

Call cascade media and talk with Frank.  He sells the R4pro and busman does all their mod work.

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Offline OFOTD

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2007, 12:05:16 PM »
FWIW,  Doug Oade is also modding the R4 Pro.  My warm mod R4 Pro should be here next week.   ;D

Busman has gotten great reviews on his work but I would be remiss if someone did not also suggest Doug's excellent work as well.

www.oade.com

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2007, 12:09:17 PM »
Here is a comparison.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?p=423190&torr=true

Can you explain your method to me so I understand exactly what you did to get this test result..

Thanks
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Offline eric.B

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2007, 12:20:23 PM »
2 tracks, same show, same song...

source 1: Neumann AK40s>LC3>KM100 > BusmanR4
source 2: Neumann AK40s>LC3>KM100>stock R4

The mics were flown just a few inches apart on the same stand.

Here is a comparison.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?p=423190&torr=true

Can you explain your method to me so I understand exactly what you did to get this test result..

Thanks

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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2007, 12:28:42 PM »
2 tracks, same show, same song...

source 1: Neumann AK40s>LC3>KM100 > BusmanR4
source 2: Neumann AK40s>LC3>KM100>stock R4

The mics were flown just a few inches apart on the same stand.

Here is a comparison.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?p=423190&torr=true

Can you explain your method to me so I understand exactly what you did to get this test result..

Thanks


That does not help me. Was it the same pair of mics? what was the source a live band playing the same song twice? I need to know the exact method used in order to evaluate how accurate the test was.
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Offline willndmb

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2007, 12:34:08 PM »
2 tracks, same show, same song...

source 1: Neumann AK40s>LC3>KM100 > BusmanR4
source 2: Neumann AK40s>LC3>KM100>stock R4

The mics were flown just a few inches apart on the same stand.

Here is a comparison.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?p=423190&torr=true

Can you explain your method to me so I understand exactly what you did to get this test result..

Thanks


That does not help me. Was it the same pair of mics? what was the source a live band playing the same song twice? I need to know the exact method used in order to evaluate how accurate the test was.

my understanding is that they were recorded the same time
1 song
2 sets of mics
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
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Offline eric.B

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2007, 12:37:28 PM »
2 tracks, same show, same song...

source 1: Neumann AK40s>LC3>KM100 > BusmanR4
source 2: Neumann AK40s>LC3>KM100>stock R4

The mics were flown just a few inches apart on the same stand.

Here is a comparison.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?p=423190&torr=true

Can you explain your method to me so I understand exactly what you did to get this test result..

Thanks


That does not help me. Was it the same pair of mics? what was the source a live band playing the same song twice? I need to know the exact method used in order to evaluate how accurate the test was.

my understanding is that they were recorded the same time
1 song
2 sets of mics

Yonder Mountain String Band 
8-25-2006
Horning's Hideout North Plains OR

live source..  they only played the song once during the show..  two sets of mics... etc  (see above)..  whats not to understand?
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2007, 12:41:20 PM »
2 tracks, same show, same song...

source 1: Neumann AK40s>LC3>KM100 > BusmanR4
source 2: Neumann AK40s>LC3>KM100>stock R4

The mics were flown just a few inches apart on the same stand.

Here is a comparison.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?p=423190&torr=true

Can you explain your method to me so I understand exactly what you did to get this test result..

Thanks


That does not help me. Was it the same pair of mics? what was the source a live band playing the same song twice? I need to know the exact method used in order to evaluate how accurate the test was.

my understanding is that they were recorded the same time
1 song
2 sets of mics

If that's the case this test shows nothing. Because two sets of mics will sound different. Also if the position of the mics is not exactly the same ( And that is impossible ) with two sets of mics to occupy the same space between them It now becomes impossible to know, if it was the difference in mic position or if it was modifications done to the preamp..
In order to do an objective test we have to have ground rules and I would say the first one is you can not use two sets of mics..... You must use a speaker because the only way to change out two preamps is to make sure A- THE PREAMPS outputs are calibrated acoustically between the two sets of preamps and that you simply press play again on the playback system and everything is exactly the same volume with the exact same mic placement then you can tell what the preamps are really doing.


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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2007, 12:42:41 PM »
2 tracks, same show, same song...

source 1: Neumann AK40s>LC3>KM100 > BusmanR4
source 2: Neumann AK40s>LC3>KM100>stock R4

The mics were flown just a few inches apart on the same stand.

Here is a comparison.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?p=423190&torr=true

Can you explain your method to me so I understand exactly what you did to get this test result..

Thanks


That does not help me. Was it the same pair of mics? what was the source a live band playing the same song twice? I need to know the exact method used in order to evaluate how accurate the test was.

my understanding is that they were recorded the same time
1 song
2 sets of mics

Yonder Mountain String Band 
8-25-2006
Horning's Hideout North Plains OR

live source..  they only played the song once during the show..  two sets of mics... etc  (see above)..  whats not to understand?
Two sets of mics = a flawed test with unrealiable resaults... for the reasons I listed above.
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2007, 12:48:01 PM »
Two sets of mics = a flawed test with unrealiable resaults... for the reasons I listed above.

While not ideal, I still think this is a reasonable test.  Not perfect, but reasonable.  Even though not ideal, that doesn't mean the test provides -no- value.  Rather, we need to take it with a grain of salt and acknolwedge the circumstances as part of our evaluation.  I for one find this comp useful, but obviously no single comp is the be-all, end-all and we must evaluate multiple tests, in multiple scenarios, in as controlled an environment as possible (in addition to our "perfect world" test we're trying to sort out in the other thread re cables).
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Offline eric.B

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2007, 12:49:24 PM »
2 tracks, same show, same song...

source 1: Neumann AK40s>LC3>KM100 > BusmanR4
source 2: Neumann AK40s>LC3>KM100>stock R4

The mics were flown just a few inches apart on the same stand.

Here is a comparison.

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?p=423190&torr=true

Can you explain your method to me so I understand exactly what you did to get this test result..

Thanks


That does not help me. Was it the same pair of mics? what was the source a live band playing the same song twice? I need to know the exact method used in order to evaluate how accurate the test was.

my understanding is that they were recorded the same time
1 song
2 sets of mics

Yonder Mountain String Band 
8-25-2006
Horning's Hideout North Plains OR

live source..  they only played the song once during the show..  two sets of mics... etc  (see above)..  whats not to understand?
Two sets of mics = a flawed test with unrealiable resaults... for the reasons I listed above.


and..  you better make sure the barometric pressure and relative humidity are exactly the same for both tests or it is completely flawed and completely useless..   
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2007, 12:55:35 PM »
Two sets of mics = a flawed test with unrealiable resaults... for the reasons I listed above.

While not ideal, I still think this is a reasonable test.  Not perfect, but reasonable.  Even though not ideal, that doesn't mean the test provides -no- value.  Rather, we need to take it with a grain of salt and acknowledge the circumstances as part of our evaluation.  I for one find this comp useful, but obviously no single comp is the be-all, end-all and we must evaluate multiple tests, in multiple scenarios, in as controlled an environment as possible (in addition to our "perfect world" test we're trying to sort out in the other thread re cables).

If your going to do a test to see what preamp is better. You cant use two different sets of mics. I would never dream of doing a test like that never mind that the mics are not in position. This is a basic principal of doing an evaluation you must have the same source and the mics must be the same in order to really know what the preamps are doing. Placing mics even centimeters apart produces a difference in sound quality. So how can you know if the differences that are being heard are the differences in mic placement or the differences in the microphones or the differences in the preamps?? You cant... So the test is not valid. It might show that two different sets of mics sound different and two different sets of mics placed close together sound different but dont we already know that? so why do a test where the results are already known? we know that if we use two different sets of mics its going to sound different. So I rest my case I am not trying to pick on anyone I am just stating a simple fact.

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Offline Brian

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2007, 12:58:02 PM »
oh good god it's just hobby taping for the sake of pete!

i think skalinder's post points out why taper's like these comps

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2007, 01:14:00 PM »
If your going to do a test to see what preamp is better. You cant use two different sets of mics. I would never dream of doing a test like that never mind that the mics are not in position. This is a basic principal of doing an evaluation you must have the same source and the mics must be the same in order to really know what the preamps are doing. Placing mics even centimeters apart produces a difference in sound quality. So how can you know if the differences that are being heard are the differences in mic placement or the differences in the microphones or the differences in the preamps?? You cant... So the test is not valid. It might show that two different sets of mics sound different and two different sets of mics placed close together sound different but dont we already know that? so why do a test where the results are already known? we know that if we use two different sets of mics its going to sound different. So I rest my case I am not trying to pick on anyone I am just stating a simple fact.

Chris, I'm well aware of how to contruct a well controlled comparison.  The fact is that doing so - for many of us - is difficult to do because of lack of access to all the necessary gear and proper environment.  We must compromise on -something- no matter what - whether it's precise controls or the environment in which we would prefer to perform the test.  So we do the best we can with what we have, in the environments available to us.  For many of these tests, we're talking about Good Enough quality / control, not Perfect.  Even Good Enough tests can help inform us as long as we take into consideration the variables in play.

Totally rough analogy, I know it's not perfect, but it still illustrates one point I'm trying to make:  Think of the NASA missions to Mars.  By landing robots in two locations on Mars, and moving them around a bit, we capture a limited amount of information about the Mars environment.  Even though the data capture methods we use aren't as good as they could be due to various compromises, we still use the data as best we're able - acknowledging the compromises we've made - to draw conclusions about the broader Mars environment, both current and historical.  It's not perfect, but it's the best we can do at a point in time.

These types of comps, while not perfect, are the best we can do at a point in time and as long as we acknolwedge the compromises we must make and take them into consideration when forming our opinions.
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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2007, 01:43:57 PM »
maybe someone could use these and due a comp
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,64289.0.html
that would be legit in this situation correct?
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2007, 01:50:26 PM »
maybe someone could use these and due a comp
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,64289.0.html
that would be legit in this situation correct?

Its not ideal but it would work. The reason I say its not ideal us because your loading down the preamps inputs with another preamp. That being said they ARE BOTH getting loaded down, so I think that the negative effects of the splitter would not create an uneven playing field because they would effect both preamps the same way. I think that would be a good start. The only thing left to do would be to calibrate the outputs of the preamp so they were exactly the same. And conduct the test with a live band or a cd what ever.
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Offline Brian

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2007, 02:07:16 PM »
i think what chris is really getting at is that if people are going to making money on modifying gear or selling boutique cables(referencing the hydra/van de haul thread), their tests should be bullet proof to ensure validity.

HOWEVER......

all we need to do is listen and make the decision ourselves.  since this is a board about taping, in-field comps are genuinely good for us.  I would still prefer that modified gear or boutique cables be thoroughly tested with the results and specs published.   

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2007, 03:01:18 PM »
i think what chris is really getting at is that if people are going to making money on modifying gear or selling boutique cables(referencing the hydra/van de haul thread), their tests should be bullet proof to ensure validity.

HOWEVER......

all we need to do is listen and make the decision ourselves.  since this is a board about taping, in-field comps are genuinely good for us.  I would still prefer that modified gear or boutique cables be thoroughly tested with the results and specs published.   

I hardly ever get a chance to make and sell cables anymore and I've stopped doing mods, so hopefully people won't take this as some sort of way-biased comment, but:

I don't agree with you here.  People on the board trying to make mods available or sell good cables at a good cost do not have the resources to make perfectly scientifically valid comparisons.  And they almost certainly will not have the resources to publish any kind of meaningful specs.  I can't get that level of information from a huge company like Monster Cable, why should I expect it from someone here?

As Brian Ska says, try to make the tests as valid as possible, let people know how they were done, and let people make their own judgements.  Easier to make controlled living room tests, but people often like to hear tests done in the field -- meaning of PA recordings, so having those comps available makes sense.  I'd rather 2 sets of high end mics be used rather than splitter cables and the ensuing effects on impedence, etc, but that's just me.

Not perfect, but still better than what you get from Monster Cable.  Use the comps, seller reputation, word of mouth, feedback on ts.com and make a decision on whether to buy.  Plus borrow a set of cables or a modded recorder and try them out for yourself.  I know I've got a set of loaner cables somewhere floating around as part of the gear loaner library for people to try out, and I think others have done the same.

I think whatever comps we can get are a nice bonus, but it seems unrealistic to me to think we should have access to the results of scientifically valid tests and published specs, esp when you can't get the same from major cable making corporations. :)
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2007, 03:46:28 PM »
i think what chris is really getting at is that if people are going to making money on modifying gear or selling boutique cables(referencing the hydra/van de haul thread), their tests should be bullet proof to ensure validity.

HOWEVER......

all we need to do is listen and make the decision ourselves.  since this is a board about taping, in-field comps are genuinely good for us.  I would still prefer that modified gear or boutique cables be thoroughly tested with the results and specs published.   

I hardly ever get a chance to make and sell cables anymore and I've stopped doing mods, so hopefully people won't take this as some sort of way-biased comment, but:

I don't agree with you here.  People on the board trying to make mods available or sell good cables at a good cost do not have the resources to make perfectly scientifically valid comparisons.  And they almost certainly will not have the resources to publish any kind of meaningful specs.  I can't get that level of information from a huge company like Monster Cable, why should I expect it from someone here?

As Brian Ska says, try to make the tests as valid as possible, let people know how they were done, and let people make their own judgements.  Easier to make controlled living room tests, but people often like to hear tests done in the field -- meaning of PA recordings, so having those comps available makes sense.  I'd rather 2 sets of high end mics be used rather than splitter cables and the ensuing effects on impedence, etc, but that's just me.

Not perfect, but still better than what you get from Monster Cable.  Use the comps, seller reputation, word of mouth, feedback on ts.com and make a decision on whether to buy.  Plus borrow a set of cables or a modded recorder and try them out for yourself.  I know I've got a set of loaner cables somewhere floating around as part of the gear loaner library for people to try out, and I think others have done the same.

I think whatever comps we can get are a nice bonus, but it seems unrealistic to me to think we should have access to the results of scientifically valid tests and published specs, esp when you can't get the same from major cable making corporations. :)

Great points all the way around Todd.  +T

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2007, 04:42:44 PM »
Since we are a "live" audio recording community I thought this was an ideal "real world" test that made perfect sense.

Mr. Church I am sorry you think that Neumann makes a bunch of 140s that sound as different as these sounded.

This is not a scientific test as was never advertised as that.  Do you have a anechoic  chamber to test your mics and pres in? didn't think so.
You really tend to come off a little rude to me most of the time.

 
I do this as a service for people and I deserve to be paid for my research, time, and parts just like any one else. If opinions of people are what spreads the news of my service to be deemed as worth the money is that not ok. 

Again I just wanted people to hear the difference of the stock Vs mod R4. These mics were maybe 2 inches apart from each other on the same stand in the same config so make of it what you will but it certainly doesn't need to be an argument over how exact of a comp this is.
Busman mics of all kinds>some type of busman modified recorder.

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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2007, 04:46:05 PM »
i think what chris is really getting at is that if people are going to making money on modifying gear or selling boutique cables(referencing the hydra/van de haul thread), their tests should be bullet proof to ensure validity.

HOWEVER......

all we need to do is listen and make the decision ourselves.  since this is a board about taping, in-field comps are genuinely good for us.  I would still prefer that modified gear or boutique cables be thoroughly tested with the results and specs published.   

I hardly ever get a chance to make and sell cables anymore and I've stopped doing mods, so hopefully people won't take this as some sort of way-biased comment, but:

I don't agree with you here.  People on the board trying to make mods available or sell good cables at a good cost do not have the resources to make perfectly scientifically valid comparisons.  And they almost certainly will not have the resources to publish any kind of meaningful specs.  I can't get that level of information from a huge company like Monster Cable, why should I expect it from someone here?

As Brian Ska says, try to make the tests as valid as possible, let people know how they were done, and let people make their own judgements.  Easier to make controlled living room tests, but people often like to hear tests done in the field -- meaning of PA recordings, so having those comps available makes sense.  I'd rather 2 sets of high end mics be used rather than splitter cables and the ensuing effects on impedence, etc, but that's just me.

Not perfect, but still better than what you get from Monster Cable.  Use the comps, seller reputation, word of mouth, feedback on ts.com and make a decision on whether to buy.  Plus borrow a set of cables or a modded recorder and try them out for yourself.  I know I've got a set of loaner cables somewhere floating around as part of the gear loaner library for people to try out, and I think others have done the same.

I think whatever comps we can get are a nice bonus, but it seems unrealistic to me to think we should have access to the results of scientifically valid tests and published specs, esp when you can't get the same from major cable making corporations. :)

Todd with all due respect there is nothing scientific about placing a single mic in front of a speaker and not moving it and then switch cables and recording the same playback I know we wont get the emf and emi from the scr's but we will get an idea of the cables overall performance.. This test does not take anything special to do. Half of you guys have a better stereo then I do. So it should not be hard to place a mic in front of a speaker and not move it so we can hear the difference between cables right? I think we are trying to shroud my method in science maybe because no one wants to hear this test for some reason? maybe we wont hear a difference? maybe we will. So lets find out! Lets hear this simple easy to do test! I cant wait for the results!! One last thing Todd please explain to me how you can have two different sets of mics that will sound the same when A- they are not the same B- they are not in the same position in the room? How can you use that test to determine sound quality of a cable? Please help me to understand this? I wish people would actually listen to what I am trying to say. I am not here trying to sell anything I am just saying if you want to sell high end cables great! sell them but I think doing a simple test like this would surly show the benefits of the high end cable vrs the regular cable right?
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2007, 04:55:15 PM »
Since we are a "live" audio recording community I thought this was an ideal "real world" test that made perfect sense.

Mr. Church I am sorry you think that Neumann makes a bunch of 140s that sound as different as these sounded.

This is not a scientific test as was never advertised as that.  Do you have a anechoic  chamber to test your mics and pres in? didn't think so.
You really tend to come off a little rude to me most of the time.

 
I do this as a service for people and I deserve to be paid for my research, time, and parts just like any one else. If opinions of people are what spreads the news of my service to be deemed as worth the money is that not ok. 

Again I just wanted people to hear the difference of the stock Vs mod R4. These mics were maybe 2 inches apart from each other on the same stand in the same config so make of it what you will but it certainly doesn't need to be an argument over how exact of a comp this is.


With all due respect no one makes microphones that all sound the same. I have never come across any in 20 years. But they sound similar. But when your doing a test and you have "similar" sounding microphones how do you remove that from the equation? You cant. Unless you have a method that tries to find all these little problems and eliminate them. I dont have a anaholic chamber the reason is I dont publish my frequency response graphs.. And why is that I wonder? because I dont have an accurate way of testing a microphone. Nobody does actually Not even Neumann as hard as that is to believe. And I have used many KM  140's or KM 82's Many many times and they do sound different why is that? because not all capsules age the same way ask anyone that makes microphones for a living they will say the same thing. This is not a personal attack I would love to really hear the differences between you modded preamp and none modded I bet there is a huge difference! But with this test I would not be able to know for sure. That was my point. I think its great that you took the time to do it, but I think you need to try and remove all the variables if you can. That's my opinion. I have software I use it tells me what the performance of my preamps are gives me a bunch of numbers and graphs. But in the end we have to use our ears if we are hearing the sound from two different locations of mic placement and two different sets of mics how will we know what is actually making the difference in sound that we are hearing?

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2007, 04:57:06 PM »
I wish people would actually listen to what I am trying to say.

Chris - it doesn't seem to me that anyone disagrees that your very controlled test will provide value.  But I am (and perhaps others are) suggesting it's not the be-all, end-all test that will for once and ever make up everyone's mind with respect to audible differences between cables.  I am (and I think others are) suggesting that - in addition to your very controlled comp - there's still value in comps that make a very limited number of compromises.

Feel free to disagree.  I think we're going in circles at this point.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 05:01:44 PM by Brian Skalinder »
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2007, 05:00:04 PM »
I wish people would actually listen to what I am trying to say.

off the top of my head......

Maybe we're all just sick of hearing the dribble that comes out of your mouth most of the time before you delete those comments or threads. 

Maybe people just want you to build affordable stealth packages and leave the gear talk to people that work on and use gear like Busman.

Maybe people are sick of having to correct you on topics you have no clue about.

Maybe people are sick of you having a condescending attitude towards everyone save for your own ticket begging thread.

Maybe we trust what a taper has to say more than what you have to say.








Offline Church-Audio

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2007, 05:29:35 PM »
I wish people would actually listen to what I am trying to say.

off the top of my head......

Maybe we're all just sick of hearing the dribble that comes out of your mouth most of the time before you delete those comments or threads. 

Maybe people just want you to build affordable stealth packages and leave the gear talk to people that work on and use gear like Busman.

Maybe people are sick of having to correct you on topics you have no clue about.

Maybe people are sick of you having a condescending attitude towards everyone save for your own ticket begging thread.

Maybe we trust what a taper has to say more than what you have to say.









I am not a taper its true. I am a sound engineer. I work on all kinds of gear. I think you just dont like me so your going to try and make everything personal its really to bad that you cant just leave me alone you have to push me and push me every chance you get, keep going keep talking. I am not going to get sucked into your shit. I think your wrong about me. I am not going to stoop to calling you names. Thank you for your kind words.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 05:49:45 PM by Church-Audio »
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2007, 05:32:27 PM »
Chris, Dave - take it to PMs, please.  Let's not pollute yet another thread with your personal blathering back and forth.
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2007, 06:03:39 PM »
Chris, Dave - take it to PMs, please.  Let's not pollute yet another thread with your personal blathering back and forth.

Agreed Brian.  I don't ever mean to pollute threads.  I tried to take it to PM but Chris prefers things in public apparently. 

I know I know something about a dead horse.  I get it. 

back to our regularly scheduled programming.........

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2007, 06:11:47 PM »
One last thing Todd please explain to me how you can have two different sets of mics that will sound the same when A- they are not the same B- they are not in the same position in the room? How can you use that test to determine sound quality of a cable? Please help me to understand this? I wish people would actually listen to what I am trying to say. I am not here trying to sell anything I am just saying if you want to sell high end cables great! sell them but I think doing a simple test like this would surly show the benefits of the high end cable vrs the regular cable right?


Ok, along with Brian, I think we are going in circles here and I don't have much new to add, so this'll hopefully be the end of responses from me.  But a few things:  1)  I hear what you're saying Chris, but I really am getting the feeling you're not hearing what I'm saying.  Which is again, no test, no matter what, will be perfect, so I use all the information available to me and make judgements based on that information, extrapolating where I can, making assumptions based on my own knowledge and experience as to what I think is causing what I hear.  And the more testing and experience, the more I'm confident I am with my judgements. 

(2) I'd like to make clear that I am not trying to justify anything to anyone or sell anyone anything, I'm just commenting on the value of comparisons and what can be gleaned from them -- no hidden agendas.  I haven't sold any mic cables in months, and I'm still trying to decide if I'll continue to make cables at all in the future.  (And if I do, it'll only be until I use up my current cable stock.)  I've never made any comparisons of the cables I did make available to people, whether flawed or not.  I don't think that is necessarily a good way of showing my cables are/were worth the $, and for that matter, I don't think "proving" anything is needed.  People need to decide for themselves, and in that vein I long ago placed a set of my cables into the gear loaner program so that people could use them and test them however they wanted and come to their own conclusions.  As I said before, buying decisions are made on lots of bases, not just sound.  Product quality, sellers reputation, service, re-sale value, look and feel, sound quality, who knows what all.  Why does does sound quality have to be proven so badly? 

I've got to say, you really sound like you've got a chip on your shoulders about cables in particular.  Do you spend that much time making controlled tests of your mics vs. schoeps and neumanns available to your potential customers, or your preamps to Grace Lunatecs?  Or if you want to go the other direction, controlled tests of your preamps to the internal preamp of the iRiver h120 or Edirol R09?  Not trying to slam you, but why is rigorous testing of cables so important and seemingly a moral requirement when you don't feel the need to do similar types of tests of the equipment you sell?
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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2007, 06:18:49 PM »
Do you spend that much time making controlled tests of your mics vs. schoeps and neumanns available to your potential customers, or your preamps to Grace Lunatecs?  Or if you want to go the other direction, controlled tests of your preamps to the internal preamp of the iRiver h120 or Edirol R09?  Not trying to slam you, but why is rigorous testing of cables so important and seemingly a moral requirement when you don't feel the need to do similar types of tests of the equipment you sell?

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2007, 06:26:34 PM »
I wish people would actually listen to what I am trying to say.

off the top of my head......

Maybe we're all just sick of hearing the dribble that comes out of your mouth most of the time before you delete those comments or threads. 

Maybe people just want you to build affordable stealth packages and leave the gear talk to people that work on and use gear like Busman.

Maybe people are sick of having to correct you on topics you have no clue about.

Maybe people are sick of you having a condescending attitude towards everyone save for your own ticket begging thread.

Maybe we trust what a taper has to say more than what you have to say.


 :clapping:

way to piss in the cheerios church... while there were some issues with the comp, at least someone took the fargin time to do it.  i found it in spirit to be very useful.

now lets bring the stock, busman, and oade shootout to the table... whos got my heady 3 way splitter...

 :tomato:
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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2007, 07:23:29 PM »
One last thing Todd please explain to me how you can have two different sets of mics that will sound the same when A- they are not the same B- they are not in the same position in the room? How can you use that test to determine sound quality of a cable? Please help me to understand this? I wish people would actually listen to what I am trying to say. I am not here trying to sell anything I am just saying if you want to sell high end cables great! sell them but I think doing a simple test like this would surly show the benefits of the high end cable vrs the regular cable right?


Ok, along with Brian, I think we are going in circles here and I don't have much new to add, so this'll hopefully be the end of responses from me.  But a few things:  1)  I hear what you're saying Chris, but I really am getting the feeling you're not hearing what I'm saying.  Which is again, no test, no matter what, will be perfect, so I use all the information available to me and make judgements based on that information, extrapolating where I can, making assumptions based on my own knowledge and experience as to what I think is causing what I hear.  And the more testing and experience, the more I'm confident I am with my judgements. 

(2) I'd like to make clear that I am not trying to justify anything to anyone or sell anyone anything, I'm just commenting on the value of comparisons and what can be gleaned from them -- no hidden agendas.  I haven't sold any mic cables in months, and I'm still trying to decide if I'll continue to make cables at all in the future.  (And if I do, it'll only be until I use up my current cable stock.)  I've never made any comparisons of the cables I did make available to people, whether flawed or not.  I don't think that is necessarily a good way of showing my cables are/were worth the $, and for that matter, I don't think "proving" anything is needed.  People need to decide for themselves, and in that vein I long ago placed a set of my cables into the gear loaner program so that people could use them and test them however they wanted and come to their own conclusions.  As I said before, buying decisions are made on lots of bases, not just sound.  Product quality, sellers reputation, service, re-sale value, look and feel, sound quality, who knows what all.  Why does does sound quality have to be proven so badly? 

I've got to say, you really sound like you've got a chip on your shoulders about cables in particular.  Do you spend that much time making controlled tests of your mics vs. schoeps and neumanns available to your potential customers, or your preamps to Grace Lunatecs?  Or if you want to go the other direction, controlled tests of your preamps to the internal preamp of the iRiver h120 or Edirol R09?  Not trying to slam you, but why is rigorous testing of cables so important and seemingly a moral requirement when you don't feel the need to do similar types of tests of the equipment you sell?

I do test my products.. Actually but I am not out here saying that a cheap $24 mic cable is not as good as a $250 mic cable. I am not saying my preamp compares to a Grace as a matter of fact I have never said my products are better then anyone's. That's why I dont have a moral issue and never will. PS every single preamp I sell and mic is tested before it ships how do you test your cables? before you ship them do you listen to each one?

EDIT....

This was unnecessary. And immature and I owe some of the people in this thread an apology even though I was not ment to be directed at any one person it does not matter. I should never have said this it was wrong to get so worked up over a cable! I am sorry. I still stand by my method for testing but its so silly to get this stupid over a dumb test.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 11:47:17 PM by Church-Audio »
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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2007, 07:44:44 PM »
Wow.  I'm pretty speechless.  I just found this thread.

Chris

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2007, 11:00:11 PM »
Original post pulled since I don't even want to remember how much this has all pissed me off.  I've got to remember I hang out on ts.com for fun. :)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 11:19:19 PM by Todd R »
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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2007, 03:02:41 AM »
Tough day on the board for sure.  Luckily I got to take a break for a little bit to step away from the computer, take a deep breath and get my head and thoughts straight.  It always seems like the strangest of threads that the crazy stuff happens.

First I want to thank ToddR and Chris Shepard for their patience and them just being a part of the community.  I appreciate their work and contributions even when threads get crazy.  ToddR in fact has helped me indirectly so many times on this site that I lost count.

Now as far as Chris Church is concerned I have many issues as it seems others do too with him.  I have never questioned his products, their quality or their place in the taping world.  What I have questioned is his honesty, integrity and demeanor.  I am somewhat concerned  at all of the editing and deleting of posts he has made that were derogatory towards me personally as well as others once he was taken to task for those derogatory posts.  Once and its defending yourself, twice its a mistake in the heat of the moment but three or more in a week is a pattern and a personality trait and tells alot to me about ones character.

Obviously I missed the latest post that was edited in this thread as the number of PM's and strangely enough the amount of emails I received that all pretty much started the same "I can't believe what he just posted......".  If someone has copied or quoted that post or otherwise knows its contents I would appreciate a PM or email only as to its contents and not a public post as Brian Ska kindly asked that we both "stop your personal blathering back and forth."  in public.


now on to the fun stuff........

I don't think there is any real debate on the sonic qualities that do exist with different types and qualities of cables.  How much or how little is subject to endless debate obviously.  For me I know what my rig sounds like.  I tape and I listen and i've grown pretty used to what my setup sound like.  I feel with my experience as a taper as well as my familiarity with my rig that I could tell the difference between different types of cables.  At the end of the day though I know that there are many other factors within my control that will have a greater effect on my tapes than cables.

For those who are just starting to explore the world of cables and the world of modded gear ask those people who have the gear you're interested in about them.   Listen to people who use the equipment you're interested not just those that talk about it.  In the end only you can decide what improvement or upgrades are worth your money.  My gear is in my sig line and i'd be happy to publicly or privately discuss any and all of it.  Just ask.

Thanks busman for starting this crazy thread and I look forward to running some real world comps with the Oade R4's and your Busman R4's soon.  It ought to be fun!

Happy taping friends!

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2007, 09:00:16 AM »
Tough day on the board for sure.  Luckily I got to take a break for a little bit to step away from the computer, take a deep breath and get my head and thoughts straight.  It always seems like the strangest of threads that the crazy stuff happens.

First I want to thank ToddR and Chris Shepard for their patience and them just being a part of the community.  I appreciate their work and contributions even when threads get crazy.  ToddR in fact has helped me indirectly so many times on this site that I lost count.

Now as far as Chris Church is concerned I have many issues as it seems others do too with him.  I have never questioned his products, their quality or their place in the taping world.  What I have questioned is his honesty, integrity and demeanor.  I am somewhat concerned  at all of the editing and deleting of posts he has made that were derogatory towards me personally as well as others once he was taken to task for those derogatory posts.  Once and its defending yourself, twice its a mistake in the heat of the moment but three or more in a week is a pattern and a personality trait and tells alot to me about ones character.

Obviously I missed the latest post that was edited in this thread as the number of PM's and strangely enough the amount of emails I received that all pretty much started the same "I can't believe what he just posted......".  If someone has copied or quoted that post or otherwise knows its contents I would appreciate a PM or email only as to its contents and not a public post as Brian Ska kindly asked that we both "stop your personal blathering back and forth."  in public.


now on to the fun stuff........

I don't think there is any real debate on the sonic qualities that do exist with different types and qualities of cables.  How much or how little is subject to endless debate obviously.  For me I know what my rig sounds like.  I tape and I listen and i've grown pretty used to what my setup sound like.  I feel with my experience as a taper as well as my familiarity with my rig that I could tell the difference between different types of cables.  At the end of the day though I know that there are many other factors within my control that will have a greater effect on my tapes than cables.

For those who are just starting to explore the world of cables and the world of modded gear ask those people who have the gear you're interested in about them.   Listen to people who use the equipment you're interested not just those that talk about it.  In the end only you can decide what improvement or upgrades are worth your money.  My gear is in my sig line and i'd be happy to publicly or privately discuss any and all of it.  Just ask.

Thanks busman for starting this crazy thread and I look forward to running some real world comps with the Oade R4's and your Busman R4's soon.  It ought to be fun!

Happy taping friends!

I agree, far too many apologies being made on a routine basis by a certain individual. I read Todd's deleted post and felt he had every right to say what he did.
mics: Soundfield ST450, JW mod Milab VIP-50's, Milab VM-44 Links (Matched Cards, Matched S-Cards), BR mod Nak 700's
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Offline Brian

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #53 on: March 15, 2007, 03:13:07 PM »
well damn.....i suppose i'll save my reply for the pm's. todd made some great points and didn't get a chance to reply until now.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #54 on: March 15, 2007, 03:27:25 PM »
well damn.....i suppose i'll save my reply for the pm's. todd made some great points and didn't get a chance to reply until now.

If your points are relevant to the intended content of the discussion, post 'em.  If it's personal schlock, go PMs.  $0.02
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Offline Brian

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #55 on: March 15, 2007, 03:47:50 PM »
basically,

i realized after Todd's reply to my last post, that i should have left out cables in my end of the discussion.  Hell even i own cables made by todd, deadheaded, and leegeddy ;)  making cables is one thing....modifying microphones, preamps, recorders, and the like are a different story.  If somebody is going to be modifying another company's product for a profit, then should at least be prepared to do the basic tests necessary to ensure a consistent product from unit to unit.  Further, if somebody is going to perform a serious mod like, lets say the rebuilding of the analog input stage of a preamp, then i'm of the opinion that person should be willing and able to perform basic electrical testing in addition to aural analysis through a speaker or visual analysis through software on a computers.

i realize these points veer away from the discussion about comparisons, but like what i thought chris was referencing, i think it's important these tests be done before we get comparisons.  many peole have stated why comparisons like these are good for the taping community so no need to reiterate that.

i think that was it.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2007, 03:49:31 PM by Brian Sax »

Offline poorlyconditioned

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #56 on: March 15, 2007, 04:17:57 PM »
basically,

i realized after Todd's reply to my last post, that i should have left out cables in my end of the discussion.  Hell even i own cables made by todd, deadheaded, and leegeddy ;)  making cables is one thing....modifying microphones, preamps, recorders, and the like are a different story.  If somebody is going to be modifying another company's product for a profit, then should at least be prepared to do the basic tests necessary to ensure a consistent product from unit to unit.  Further, if somebody is going to perform a serious mod like, lets say the rebuilding of the analog input stage of a preamp, then i'm of the opinion that person should be willing and able to perform basic electrical testing in addition to aural analysis through a speaker or visual analysis through software on a computers.

i realize these points veer away from the discussion about comparisons, but like what i thought chris was referencing, i think it's important these tests be done before we get comparisons.  many peole have stated why comparisons like these are good for the taping community so no need to reiterate that.

i think that was it.

Not everyone agrees with me on this point, but, if I am a *paying customer* for gear/mods, I would like to know what is inside.  I don't need a schematic, but exact chips/parts replaced and part #s, are important to me.  Sure, there are some DIY types who may copy this stuff, but IMO there is still room here for both for-profit and DIY types.  I would even hazard to guess that DIY types (like myself) have contributed some ideas, direclty or indirectly to the for-profit types.

  Richard
Mics: Sennheiser MKE2002 (dummy head), Studio Projects C4, AT825 (unmodded), AT822 franken mic (x2), AT853(hc,c,sc,o), Senn. MKE2, Senn MKE40, Shure MX183/5, CA Cards, homebrew Panasonic and Transsound capsules.
Pre/ADC: Presonus Firepod & Firebox, DMIC20(x2), UA5(poorly-modded, AD8620+AD8512opamps), VX440
Recorders: Edirol R4, R09, IBM X24 laptop, NJB3(x2), HiMD(x2), MD(1).
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Offline Brian

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #57 on: March 15, 2007, 04:40:59 PM »
oh and lastly.....we all know reputation can go lot further than the ability to publish specs when modifying gear and i realize this.

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2007, 05:11:29 PM »
Not everyone agrees with me on this point, but, if I am a *paying customer* for gear/mods, I would like to know what is inside.  I don't need a schematic, but exact chips/parts replaced and part #s, are important to me.  Sure, there are some DIY types who may copy this stuff, but IMO there is still room here for both for-profit and DIY types.  I would even hazard to guess that DIY types (like myself) have contributed some ideas, direclty or indirectly to the for-profit types.

  Richard


I'm torn on this issue.  Sharing the design of circuits I think is great, and I think it helps the real modder/DIY types to think about things and hopefully make even more revisions and changes to improve things.

I'm a bit more afraid that sharing specifics on parts used, esp for instance op amps, might put a damper on experimentation.  People might instead say, oh Doug Oade uses this op amp in his warm mod, so I'm going to use it.  Op amps can impart a definite flavor to the sound of gear, and it's great to have people try different amps to see what they do for the sound rather than blindly following other people's lead.  There's already lots of info on the potential candidates -- been awhile since I've looked into it, but eg. AD712, LM6174, OP2134, THAT1510, INA217, etc. 

It seems better to me to discuss the already known various candidates that might be used.  And also discuss what types of op amp parameters can be used to determine if the amp will work at all as a replacement (not just basic functionality, but current draw/supply, etc) and discuss how various parameters might be expected to affect the sound -- eg., slew rate, voltage induce noise, CMRR, etc.  All this seems like it would be better to spur DIYers experimentation rather than essentially saying -- go use this particular op amp as a replacement, it'll make your gear sound better.

I'm not positive about this, but I guess that's the direction I'm leaning.

Edit to say:  Not to suggest this is what you would do with the info, Richard.  We all you are a tinkerer extraordinairre.  :)  But in general, I fear that providing specific part numbers would dampen experimentation, not enhance it.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2007, 05:15:06 PM by Todd R »
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline poorlyconditioned

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2007, 05:37:18 PM »
Not everyone agrees with me on this point, but, if I am a *paying customer* for gear/mods, I would like to know what is inside.  I don't need a schematic, but exact chips/parts replaced and part #s, are important to me.  Sure, there are some DIY types who may copy this stuff, but IMO there is still room here for both for-profit and DIY types.  I would even hazard to guess that DIY types (like myself) have contributed some ideas, direclty or indirectly to the for-profit types.

  Richard


I'm torn on this issue.  Sharing the design of circuits I think is great, and I think it helps the real modder/DIY types to think about things and hopefully make even more revisions and changes to improve things.

I'm a bit more afraid that sharing specifics on parts used, esp for instance op amps, might put a damper on experimentation.  People might instead say, oh Doug Oade uses this op amp in his warm mod, so I'm going to use it.  Op amps can impart a definite flavor to the sound of gear, and it's great to have people try different amps to see what they do for the sound rather than blindly following other people's lead.  There's already lots of info on the potential candidates -- been awhile since I've looked into it, but eg. AD712, LM6174, OP2134, THAT1510, INA217, etc. 

It seems better to me to discuss the already known various candidates that might be used.  And also discuss what types of op amp parameters can be used to determine if the amp will work at all as a replacement (not just basic functionality, but current draw/supply, etc) and discuss how various parameters might be expected to affect the sound -- eg., slew rate, voltage induce noise, CMRR, etc.  All this seems like it would be better to spur DIYers experimentation rather than essentially saying -- go use this particular op amp as a replacement, it'll make your gear sound better.

I'm not positive about this, but I guess that's the direction I'm leaning.

Edit to say:  Not to suggest this is what you would do with the info, Richard.  We all you are a tinkerer extraordinairre.  :)  But in general, I fear that providing specific part numbers would dampen experimentation, not enhance it.

OK, let's get this party started!

I have been using AD8512 (fet input) opamps in the R4, both the first (instrumentation amp) and second (buffer) stages.  These run off +/-5V.  The stock unit, NJM2068 can go in the dumpster!  I'm pretty happy with these.  Perhaps I could get lower noise, but they are fine for now.  Oh yeah, I removed the series 10k resistor that is used for the line/mic attenuator.  My inputs are fixed to mic input only now.

OK, the problem I have now is that there are ADC drivers that must run off only +5V (single sided).  The stock unit has NJM2100D.  I tried OP262, which I think works pretty well, but I'm open to suggestions.  Another alternative would be a CMOS chip, like AD8656.  This is a bit noiser, though.  And I don't know how good CMOS sounds for audio.  On my TODO list...

Oh yeah, some people have suggested using very high speed "video type" opamps, but I am not comfortable with this.  In fact, I tried using these for ADC drivers, but got oscillation problems.  Not recommended IMO.

  Richard

PS: Whoever is stealing tickets.  Knock it off!  I'm providing valueable information and discussion here.  If you don't like it, go away.
Mics: Sennheiser MKE2002 (dummy head), Studio Projects C4, AT825 (unmodded), AT822 franken mic (x2), AT853(hc,c,sc,o), Senn. MKE2, Senn MKE40, Shure MX183/5, CA Cards, homebrew Panasonic and Transsound capsules.
Pre/ADC: Presonus Firepod & Firebox, DMIC20(x2), UA5(poorly-modded, AD8620+AD8512opamps), VX440
Recorders: Edirol R4, R09, IBM X24 laptop, NJB3(x2), HiMD(x2), MD(1).
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2007, 05:59:09 PM »
Back to comp methodology for a moment..

2 tracks, same show, same song...

source 1: Neumann AK40s>LC3>KM100 > BusmanR4
source 2: Neumann AK40s>LC3>KM100>stock R4

The mics were flown just a few inches apart on the same stand.

I read the part above about the comp and the problems with it & then skipped several pages of hooha, so forgive me if someone else suggested this already, but how about this simple procedure to effectively eliminate the variables in the comparison:

Run the test as stated above for one song (or set), then switch the cabling at the input to the recorders and record a second song (or set). 

You'd then have 4 samples total. Compare the two versions of the first song, realizing that the mics/position/cables etc. are not perfectly identical, then compare the two versions of the second (same caveat).  Between the two sets of samples you can eliminate any bias other than the recorder itself.. If you prefer the one version of the recorder both times you've eliminated the other differences.
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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2007, 06:20:51 PM »
OK, let's get this party started!

I have been using AD8512 (fet input) opamps in the R4, both the first (instrumentation amp) and second (buffer) stages.  These run off +/-5V.  The stock unit, NJM2068 can go in the dumpster!  I'm pretty happy with these.  Perhaps I could get lower noise, but they are fine for now.  Oh yeah, I removed the series 10k resistor that is used for the line/mic attenuator.  My inputs are fixed to mic input only now.

OK, the problem I have now is that there are ADC drivers that must run off only +5V (single sided).  The stock unit has NJM2100D.  I tried OP262, which I think works pretty well, but I'm open to suggestions.  Another alternative would be a CMOS chip, like AD8656.  This is a bit noiser, though.  And I don't know how good CMOS sounds for audio.  On my TODO list...

Oh yeah, some people have suggested using very high speed "video type" opamps, but I am not comfortable with this.  In fact, I tried using these for ADC drivers, but got oscillation problems.  Not recommended IMO.

  Richard

PS: Whoever is stealing tickets.  Knock it off!  I'm providing valueable information and discussion here.  If you don't like it, go away.

Or don't listen to me.  :P  Excellent, Richard, thanks for all the info! +t as always.   I've read on other boards that the high speed amps really need good circuit design and board layout or oscillation and ringing is a strong possibility.  Maybe that means they could be good for original designs, but they appear more problematic for modding.

All this is in the wrong thread I suspect, but I don't know where it should go.  All this great info is getting buried in threads that will get lost I'm afraid.  I think it was mentioned before, but we need to bug Bri to see if he can set up a Hacker's Corner.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline poorlyconditioned

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #62 on: March 15, 2007, 06:31:07 PM »
OK, let's get this party started!

I have been using AD8512 (fet input) opamps in the R4, both the first (instrumentation amp) and second (buffer) stages.  These run off +/-5V.  The stock unit, NJM2068 can go in the dumpster!  I'm pretty happy with these.  Perhaps I could get lower noise, but they are fine for now.  Oh yeah, I removed the series 10k resistor that is used for the line/mic attenuator.  My inputs are fixed to mic input only now.

OK, the problem I have now is that there are ADC drivers that must run off only +5V (single sided).  The stock unit has NJM2100D.  I tried OP262, which I think works pretty well, but I'm open to suggestions.  Another alternative would be a CMOS chip, like AD8656.  This is a bit noiser, though.  And I don't know how good CMOS sounds for audio.  On my TODO list...

Oh yeah, some people have suggested using very high speed "video type" opamps, but I am not comfortable with this.  In fact, I tried using these for ADC drivers, but got oscillation problems.  Not recommended IMO.

  Richard

PS: Whoever is stealing tickets.  Knock it off!  I'm providing valueable information and discussion here.  If you don't like it, go away.

Or don't listen to me.  :P  Excellent, Richard, thanks for all the info! +t as always.   I've read on other boards that the high speed amps really need good circuit design and board layout or oscillation and ringing is a strong possibility.  Maybe that means they could be good for original designs, but they appear more problematic for modding.

All this is in the wrong thread I suspect, but I don't know where it should go.  All this great info is getting buried in threads that will get lost I'm afraid.  I think it was mentioned before, but we need to bug Bri to see if he can set up a Hacker's Corner.

Yeah, there should be a hackers' corner!  Great idea.

  Richard
Mics: Sennheiser MKE2002 (dummy head), Studio Projects C4, AT825 (unmodded), AT822 franken mic (x2), AT853(hc,c,sc,o), Senn. MKE2, Senn MKE40, Shure MX183/5, CA Cards, homebrew Panasonic and Transsound capsules.
Pre/ADC: Presonus Firepod & Firebox, DMIC20(x2), UA5(poorly-modded, AD8620+AD8512opamps), VX440
Recorders: Edirol R4, R09, IBM X24 laptop, NJB3(x2), HiMD(x2), MD(1).
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Offline Brian

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2007, 06:32:12 PM »
can we request a mod to move all the valuable info to a thread in the archive?  maybe a member with a little more time can create thread with quotes attached?

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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #64 on: March 17, 2007, 10:58:11 AM »
wow!  quite the pissing match we have going on here!   Here is my opinion on comps.  2pr same brand mics are not close enough for a comp.  mics sent through a consumer grade splitter not good enough.  2 pr identical mic cables not good enough.  Setting levels by eye or via software to peak not good enough, living room taping not nearly good enough unless you plan on taping in your living room.
     Here is what would make the test with all of these variables completely scientific and valid.  Switch the variables!  Run a couple of songs with mic a, and cable a into preamp a, and mic b cable b into preamp b, then after a couple of songs switch mic and cable a to pre b, then after a couple of songs mic a cable b into pre a and so on.  There are 3 variables (4 if you include positioning which could never be repeated exactly, but could more easily be lumped into the mic variable)
    If what you like about the comp is consistent across the board it is a completely valid and scientific comp IMO.  If your favorite changes with the cable/mic switches then we know that the comp is tainted.  It would be my guess that only thoes with very nice playback systems and impressive ears would hear much difference between the mic cable switches but it would be proof positive of the difference between the pre's.
    Switching mic cables could potentially reposition the mics so I would say forgo that step as long as the cables were the same length and type.  Another good wrinkle would be to use another brand of mic during the same show so that we could see the difference with different flavors of mics.  Radical differences like ld's vs sd's, or the Neumans vs a very flat mic for example, or maybe just a very popular mic like the c-4's or whatever Chris feels is a common mic for his sales demographic.  Using a single pair of mics and a splitter would be even better but I say still switch the outputs because the splitter or a cable in the chain could have some impact.  As for setting levels, IMO one of the biggest differences between quality and average preamps is the transient response.  One pre may record a far greater dynamic range than the other and it will show a peak far higher over the "meat" of the music than a lesser pre.  When listening, each person would have to be able to make the determination between the two even though one seemed louder (this would probably be the lesser pre... in this regard anyway) and one would have to be able to make determinations despite this difference.  Maybe two sets should be made for people to listen to... one with both sources normalized to a set rms level so they sound the same, and one set untouched.
    Doing all of this would provide a comp that is real world, scientific, and easy to compare because they will seem at similar volume and utilize the gain settings representing the meat of the pre.
    Take good notes, and snap pictures of the setup and IMO nobody could bitch about validity.

my .02


Matt
I do think taping is the reality of the business..it is also an impetus for artists to create studio CDs that are ART, not just another recording...    Fareed Haque  2-4-2005




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Re: BusmanR4 VS. Stock R4
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2007, 09:53:23 AM »
ahhhh, an argument with Mr. Church that doesn't involve me.

/how refreshing
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again, your showing your cluelessness.


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