Topic: DPA 4061 Question

[adrianf74]

Okay, I know I've asked enough questions on here about various mics setups and solutions.  I love my CA-14 omnis (and cards to a lesser extent) but I would like to try and get one good pair of omnis.  I was looking at various options (including open rig solutions) and a few people had said *NOT* to rule out the 4061's in either application.

The CA-14's are excellent mics and I've got some awesome captures to prove this, however, I sometimes find myself in situations where the 14's are *too big* and I'm not really sold on the CAFS.  I don't have $1000 to drop on a pair of CEBs and I was thinking I might try my luck off eBay and pick up a pair of mics, send 'em to Chris Church and them re-terminated to 1/8" for use with my 9100 preamp.  My other option is to consisder a pair of Countryman B3's but at that point, I'm debating just getting the 4061's. 

Does anybody have any words of caution here or should I just try my luck?  (or if somebody has a pair of 4061's they'd like to sell at a reasonable price, PM me).  I know that I can fix any major imbalance in post but I know that's not probably not the recommended route.

Thanks for any input on this one.

[Gutbucket]

It's no secret I like the miniature DPA omnis and prefer them over the B3 and CA-1.  I haven't run the CAFS, CA-14 omnis or the Nevatons.

I suggest the 4060 over the 4061 for greater sensitivity and lower noise.  For quieter material they are the obvious choice between the two.  With a max SPL of 135dB the 4060 can handle high SPLs fine as well in the ways we use them around here (I assume you are not clipping them direclty to the bell of a trumpet), yet because they are pretty sensitive they will output a pretty hot signal at that point which can clip gear that can't handle a hot input.   If recording very loud stuff you'll need gear with an input stage that can handle it.  I think the 9100 should be fine.  Same with a Sony M10 if that is what you are using. For most of what I record with 4060s I only use about 5dB of gain on CA-UGLYs > DR2d (or R-09) to keep loud clapping just under clipping with the recorders set near unity gain.

If you are always recording high SPL material and the noise floor is unimportant, than the less sensitive 4061 can be a better match for gear less tollerant of a hot input signal.  The 4061 is more common to find used, since it's lower output is a better match for wireless transmitters and that's how most stage and TV production uses them.

New 4060 or 4061 list for around $400 a piece, less if you dig for discounts.  A factory stereo set that comes with mounts and adapters is about $900 (the most useful extra bits in there are probably the mini windscreens and the XLR phantom adapters, but I prefer the Niant PFA phantom adapters which Jon can provide with a minijack input for use with a reterminated stereo mini plug on the mics).

You'll more easily find 4061s used on Ebay.  I picked up a few for $100 a piece a while back, terminated to binders, but have not reterminated or used them yet so I can't say how well they'll match, but  I bought a number of used B3s from the same seller and they were all good and close to each other.

If you have other questions just ask.

[adrianf74]

@Gutbucket: Thanks for the in-depth feedback.  Having run the CA-14's (as my personal fave right now), I really want something a little smaller when I need to.  At that point, considering what I'd be dropping, I'd likely just replace both of my omni mics with the DPAs.  The CAFS fit the bill but I know there are better options out there (hence why I've been looking at the B3 and 4061).  My input gear, as listed in my sig, consists of either a 9100 or an Ugly Battery Box (depending on my situation) along with an M10. 

Most of what I capture involves pop, rock and electronic music (and all sorts of stuff in-between) and it's always amplified and is, more often than not, in smaller venues (1000 or fewer) that are quite loud (always wear earplugs).   Occasionally I'll capture acoustic/folk stuff and I know that I have the ability to use the mic running on the mic input without incident when I need to.  Quite often, I'll just gain up on the preamp (as I did for an open situation at an outdoor festival I was at in August).  This said, am I still smart to consider the 4061 based on my needs?   I understand there's a higher noise floor if used in a less-loud scenario but I'm willing to "suck it up" since it's less often the case.

I've done a little "digging" on FleaBay and have come across the stereo kit you're referring to.  The mini-windscreens can be ordered online (along with mic clips, etc). and right now, none of my gear runs XLR (and I don't see me upgrading from the M10 any time soon).  That's not to say that it's always the case as a close buddy runs AKG 480's with a DR-680 and often manages a board feed plus his mics.  Since I'm clipping to his stand, I could just use the Naiant PFA's to his deck and go that way instead of running mine.  Would allow for easier matrix-work if I wanted to as well.  So, this is food for thought.

[mr qpl]

I've had great luck with quiet acoustic and loud amplified music with 4061's. Especially since I went 24 bit and can amplify without hiss. I think the 61's are pretty widely available on ebay for around 50-100 each. That's where I got mine 6 years ago, Broadway sellers, I had a local do the lemo-1/8" change.

[adrianf74]

I've had great luck with quiet acoustic and loud amplified music with 4061's. Especially since I went 24 bit and can amplify without hiss. I think the 61's are pretty widely available on ebay for around 50-100 each. That's where I got mine 6 years ago, Broadway sellers, I had a local do the lemo-1/8" change.

I usually try and run peaks around -8 to -10dB and then boost in post (again, running 24-bit naturally).  I haven't seen much on FleaBay over the past few months (trust me, I've been looking) because I'd just buy 'em and then terminate them in 1/8".

[yousef]

Another satisfied Ebay purchaser here.

Got 2x 4060s (in beige...) from a seller in Canada probably 6 years ago. One of them needed a soak in de-ionised water to get it clean but since then I've been very happy with them. Sometimes I need to give one of them a boost of less than 2dB in post, other times they're close enough to leave as-is. Never had any problems with the mics overloading, even when in front of the stacks at loud gigs.

I know people have been burned by the Broadway sellers in the past but for the price I thought it was well worth the gamble. Plus the fact that they were so cheap (and already a bit battered-looking) means that I'm a bit less precious about mounting them with tape and whatever else comes to hand in the heat of the moment.

One word of caution though - these mics have generally already been re-terminated from the original connector to a mini-Lemo thing and have often had the cable shortened at the same time. Not a problem for low-pro outings but you might struggle if you want to get them up high on a stand.

[Gutbucket]

In your case as described, you shouldn't have a problem with either the 60's or 61's. 

4060 > UGLY BATT BOX > M10 should not overload in the situations you describe.  I've only overloaded the input of the original R-09 with the 4060 output a few times- one was a way, way too loud festival arena show (even with earplugs), another was a club with massive subs under the entire front of the stage and I had the mics setup at stagelip directly over and very close to them.  But the input stage of the M10 can take a hotter signal without overload as I understand it.  So you needn't worry about overload with the more sensitive mic, and that extra sensitivity might allow you to just use the UGLY BATT BOX instead of the 9100 for more things than you would otherwise.

More often than overload, I've encountered the noise floor of the 4060, but mostly on nature recordings where a lot of gain is required.  Even on quiet material like classical string quartets and super low level 'threshold of hearing' segments in some modern percussion pieces, the HVAC noise of the room has been higher than the self noise of the 4060s.  I have yet to use the 4061s I picked up, so I can't say how much higher it's noise floor is, or how much of a problem it might be for typical music recording use.  Some have reported it as overly noisy for music with very quiet passages like classical or maybe acoustic folk, others say no problem.

Short and long is I still think 4060 would be preferable for you, but not so much as to keep you from jumping on a good deal on 4061s if you come across one.  If buying new the price should be identical, so go 4060.  This was my reasoning when I picked up a handful of used 4061s on the cheap a couple months back.

I've had great luck with quiet acoustic and loud amplified music with 4061's. Especially since I went 24 bit and can amplify without hiss.

I don't doubt it at all, but 24bit doesn't do anything to help the 4061's self noise.  It gives the recorder a wider dynamic range which allows you to cleanly boost the signal it records, including any noise that is already there from the from the room, mics, or preamp, whichever is loudest.  So recording more bits means a greater potential of revealing the self noise of the mic, which might have been hidden in a 16bit recording, depening on recording levels.  In that way, your not having noticed a problem with self noise of the 4061 is a good endorsement of it's higher noise not being too much of a problem.

One word of caution though - these mics have generally already been re-terminated from the original connector to a mini-Lemo thing and have often had the cable shortened at the same time. Not a problem for low-pro outings but you might struggle if you want to get them up high on a stand.

I regularly extend the ones I have terminated in miniplugs with a 6' stereo mini cable to either the UGLY pres or the Niant PFAs, which works fine without introducing noise as long as the connection is good.  I usually gaff tape that.  I'm getting ready to convert most of my miniplug/jack gear to mini-XLR for more secure locking connections.