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Author Topic: R-09HR/LS-10/PCM-D50/PMD-620: WHICH IS BEST FOR YOU?  (Read 10547 times)

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Offline guysonic

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R-09HR/LS-10/PCM-D50/PMD-620: WHICH IS BEST FOR YOU?
« on: July 09, 2008, 05:21:21 AM »
Many, many considerations for what's best deck for your uses. 

Some decks have lower noise if mic power is NOT used. 

Some decks have a lot of high frequency type noise that might 'color' certain type sounds, and some decks have better sounding mics (which I DO NOT test). 

I would lean towards the R-09HR for likely having the best (user reported) for music mics, and if you are using a self powered mic, the mic powering noise is not an issue. 

However, for lowest high frequency type noise, the D50 and LS-10 are noteworthy. 

Ya, it's a tough decision.

Below is a collection of noise plots-to-ponder.






Links to deck model discussion threads/reviews at: www.sonicstudios.com/tips.htm

"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

DSM HRTF STEREO-SURROUND RECORDING SYSTEMS WEBSITE: http://www.sonicstudios.com

Offline flintstone

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Re: R-09HR/LS-10/PCM-D50/PMD-620: WHICH IS BEST FOR YOU?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2008, 12:31:16 PM »
Thanks for your efforts to examine these small recorders,
and organizing your web page so we can more easily find
the results.   

Now we need somebody to send a Tascam DR-1 to Guysonic
so he can put it through the same tests.

Flintstone

Offline Dede2002

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Re: R-09HR/LS-10/PCM-D50/PMD-620: WHICH IS BEST FOR YOU?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2008, 01:48:47 PM »
Guysonic, thanks for this  ;).
+T.
Mics..........................HLSC-1 and HLSO-MICRO
BB and Preamps........MM Micro bb / MM Custom Elite bb / Church 9100
                              
Recorders...................Edirol R-09 / Edirol R-09HR

Offline illconditioned

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Re: R-09HR/LS-10/PCM-D50/PMD-620: WHICH IS BEST FOR YOU?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2008, 02:21:47 PM »

Links to deck model discussion threads/reviews at: www.sonicstudios.com/tips.htm

Dear Guy,
I've got two questions.

1. It appears that Sony just inserts an attenuator on the line input.  This would explain the increased noise floor on line in, right?  By the way, many recorders do this, like the Edirol R4.  It is nice to see your analysis show this behavior though.

2. Do you know the voltage and (internal) source resistor for plug-in-power on the Sony?  You can figure out the internal source resistor by putting something like a 1k resistor on the output and seeing how much of the pip voltage shows up.  I'm sure you know this :).

Thanks again for the careful analysis!

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline guysonic

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Re: R-09HR/LS-10/PCM-D50/PMD-620: WHICH IS BEST FOR YOU?
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2008, 08:28:46 PM »

Links to deck model discussion threads/reviews at: www.sonicstudios.com/tips.htm

Dear Guy,
I've got two questions.

1. It appears that Sony just inserts an attenuator on the line input.  This would explain the increased noise floor on line in, right?  By the way, many recorders do this, like the Edirol R4.  It is nice to see your analysis show this behavior though.

2. Do you know the voltage and (internal) source resistor for plug-in-power on the Sony?  You can figure out the internal source resistor by putting something like a 1k resistor on the output and seeing how much of the pip voltage shows up.  I'm sure you know this :).

Thanks again for the careful analysis!

  Richard


1) REPLY: To tell you the truth, not really sure the cause for external preamp low and higher mid band noise using LINE input.  It is a significant difference with similar +6dB noise increase effect showing with LS-10, but in LS-10 case, the LS-10's low frequency noise is being rolled at 83 cycles on the mic input. So not as much a noise level difference from line input with preamplifier providing the gain having low bandwidth response to 10 cycles. 

Since noise sources in the same signal path are additive, and if it's true line input is more or less same signal path as the mic input, only with increased attenuation to accept line level signals, then the plots do give good argument for why line input with good low noise preamp shows a higher noise floor than mic input mode.

2) REPLY: 2.8 VOLTS no load.  .5 VOLTS w/1000 ohm load.
"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

DSM HRTF STEREO-SURROUND RECORDING SYSTEMS WEBSITE: http://www.sonicstudios.com

Offline illconditioned

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Re: R-09HR/LS-10/PCM-D50/PMD-620: WHICH IS BEST FOR YOU?
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2008, 10:14:18 PM »

Links to deck model discussion threads/reviews at: www.sonicstudios.com/tips.htm

Dear Guy,
I've got two questions.

1. It appears that Sony just inserts an attenuator on the line input.  This would explain the increased noise floor on line in, right?  By the way, many recorders do this, like the Edirol R4.  It is nice to see your analysis show this behavior though.

2. Do you know the voltage and (internal) source resistor for plug-in-power on the Sony?  You can figure out the internal source resistor by putting something like a 1k resistor on the output and seeing how much of the pip voltage shows up.  I'm sure you know this :).

Thanks again for the careful analysis!

  Richard


1) REPLY: To tell you the truth, not really sure the cause for external preamp low and higher mid band noise using LINE input.  It is a significant difference with similar +6dB noise increase effect showing with LS-10, but in LS-10 case, the LS-10's low frequency noise is being rolled at 83 cycles on the mic input. So not as much a noise level difference from line input with preamplifier providing the gain having low bandwidth response to 10 cycles. 

Since noise sources in the same signal path are additive, and if it's true line input is more or less same signal path as the mic input, only with increased attenuation to accept line level signals, then the plots do give good argument for why line input with good low noise preamp shows a higher noise floor than mic input mode.

2) REPLY: 2.8 VOLTS no load.  .5 VOLTS w/1000 ohm load.

Thanks for the answers!

From what i can see, it looks like the Edirol R09 (classic) is best for "hot" mics (like my Sennheiser KE4), while the Sony might be best for quieter mics.

Oh yeah, did you do an of min/max input levels for the Sony?  In particular, I'm wondering how much headroom there is on the mic level input.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline guysonic

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Re: R-09HR/LS-10/PCM-D50/PMD-620: WHICH IS BEST FOR YOU?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2008, 03:09:11 AM »
D50 REC adjust thumb-knob working range is #2.5 to #10

MIC input MAX (LOW)= +5.4 dBu

LINE input MAX = +24 dBu
"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

DSM HRTF STEREO-SURROUND RECORDING SYSTEMS WEBSITE: http://www.sonicstudios.com

Offline illconditioned

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Re: R-09HR/LS-10/PCM-D50/PMD-620: WHICH IS BEST FOR YOU?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2008, 01:22:21 PM »
D50 REC adjust thumb-knob working range is #2.5 to #10

MIC input MAX (LOW)= +5.4 dBu

LINE input MAX = +24 dBu

Thanks again!  OK, now I need to get one of these  >:D.

   Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline steven444

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Re: R-09HR/LS-10/PCM-D50/PMD-620: WHICH IS BEST FOR YOU?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2010, 02:18:33 AM »
great work keep it up
70-638 & 70-640  really worth full 70-642 and update you 70-643

Offline andol123

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Re: R-09HR/LS-10/PCM-D50/PMD-620: WHICH IS BEST FOR YOU?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2010, 07:14:08 AM »
Now we need somebody to send a Tascam DR-1 to Guysonic
so he can put it through the same tests.

Tascam DR-D2 as well.

 

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