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Author Topic: Schoeps or AKG ?  (Read 22231 times)

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Offline eclark

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Schoeps or AKG ?
« on: October 13, 2011, 09:29:16 PM »
I don't really want to start a shit storm on here- just hear some honest answers. What's the big difference?!?!

I've listened to a few comparisons on the LMA tonight, of some of my favorite bands, mostly shows I was in attendance, and even some comps where the mics were on the same stand. I've been also fair on the preamp and location, because I know that can influence sound.

IMO, the AKGs sound better in EVERY sample!!!

This is my take- Compared to the AKGs, the Schoeps can get muddy and loose LOTS of details. They don't have as much contrast in the highs or lows, resulting in less resolution.

STS9 2005-12-30 Tabernacle ATL:
Schoeps: http://www.archive.org/details/sts92005-12-30.mk41.flac16
AKG: http://www.archive.org/details/sts9-2005-12-30.akg_c480b.flac16
good comps: luma daylight, ramone & emiglio

Disco Biscuits 2006-08-25 Camp Bisco NY:
Schoeps: http://www.archive.org/details/db2006-08-25.mk4v_722.flac16
AKG: http://www.archive.org/details/db2006-08-25.akg481.flac16
good comps: 7-11, svenghali

Umphrey's McGee 2006-11-17 Tabernacle ATL
Schoeps: http://www.archive.org/details/um2006-11-17.mk4.flac16
AKG: http://www.archive.org/details/um2006-11-17.setII
good comps: GYMRH, push the pig, walletsworth


But I really want to know what YOU think!



akg 460b + ck61 (-10db) > MixPre-D > Sony PCM M10

Offline willndmb

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2011, 09:43:40 PM »
you are not going to get good answers on this because everyone hears differently
i like akg over schoeps in most cases
others will say schoeps are better
you have to see what your ars like and go that route, seems like you have figured it out already since you said the akg sound better to you in every sample you listened to
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline Chuck

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2011, 10:00:14 PM »
I favor the AKG sound  :coolguy:

...wait until Bean sees this thread... lol...
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
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Offline eclark

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2011, 10:10:40 PM »
calling bean...
akg 460b + ck61 (-10db) > MixPre-D > Sony PCM M10

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2011, 10:26:55 PM »
calling bean...

haha, yeah, bean just bought schoeps after running mbhos and akgs for 10+ years.

This is my take- Compared to the AKGs, the Schoeps can get muddy and loose LOTS of details. They don't have as much contrast in the highs or lows

I have 1 primary beef with the AKG house sound; The texture of the 8-11khz range (or there abouts) creates a "sizzle" that I think sounds like ass. It's just the color of the mics and not a tonal balance issue. Something about it just doesn't jive with my hearing. For example, I've found a grit somewhere around 6-8khz in the Neumann 100 line as well but that one is completely dependent on the playback. Sounded fine on my LCD-2s, pretty good on my Denon 7000s, and it made me want to poke my eye out with a set of etymotic ER-6s where as I hear the AKG house sizzle everywhere but to various degrees. The Schoeps color is unique, but it doesn't bother me with any playback system I've heard. Sometimes it's not great, but it doesn't make me look for another source to listen to, it's basically just a tonal balance issue there. Different playback setups will reveal different details.

I personally would run just about any other mic other than AKGs first, but there are folks here who really like them. I don't like the house sound/texture/color, regardless of their tonal balance (which I can fix if needed with either cap system). No harm in that. If you like how they sound, run them!  :)
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Offline hi and lo

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2011, 10:27:54 PM »
I believe there is more to this than simple A/B comparisons. Schoeps offers a product line and level of support that is really unmatched, except perhaps by DPA. I won't take a side on the debate of sonic qualities between AKGs and Schoeps; I love them both for different reasons. However, I do know which company offers a superior level of support or customizations and that is Schoeps.

Offline achalsey

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2011, 11:21:44 PM »
What's the big difference?!?!


I have no qualitative knowledge, but quantitatively I'm going to say the price tag is a pretty big difference.

Offline hi and lo

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2011, 11:22:58 PM »
What's the big difference?!?!


I have no qualitative knowledge, but quantitatively I'm going to say the price tag is a pretty big difference.

It's hard to put a price on reliability.

Online tim in jersey

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2011, 12:23:39 AM »
I own both. I like both for different reasons.

That being said, I give the Schoeps a slight edge.

Reason being that, due to size constraints, I can often get my active/Schoeps rig in to locations where I know damn good and well I would be denied otherwise.

Throw the nbox in the mix for those occasional stealth/no-stands-allowed venues/shows and it's a no-brainer for me. Not a cheap solution, by any means, but it feels good to know I can pull from the sweet spot no matter the condition...

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2011, 12:48:07 AM »
Its comparing apples and oranges really! I liked the 480s because I could afford thm back in 1999 w my HS graduation money, and had no clue what was what. We didnt have ts.com back then :P

Sonically, the 480s are a very bright mic, just like the MBHOs are. I loved running both and the HOs gave me a chance to run actives :) And since running atives, I will NEVER run full-bodied mics EVER again :P ;D I LOVE the size and weight of my mk41/lemosax combo and sonically it is just the right darkness and has just the right amount of detail for me. I wish I had this setup YEARS AGO, because back then I was making good recordings and now I am CONSISTENTLY making GREAT recordings :P ;D 8)

So to each his own. I think my rig is/will contend against ANY RIG OUT THERE, at least IMO. YMMV :) And going the mk41>KCY route, my rig CANNOT get any smaller.
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2011, 01:34:31 AM »
483's still kick the crap out of any other hyper out there > Cold Hard Truth   >:D

Offline jbou

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2011, 01:39:52 AM »
Sonically, the 480s are a very bright mic, just like the MBHOs are.

I thought people considered MBHOs to be darker sounding.... am I wrong?

Offline newplanet7

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2011, 02:38:19 AM »
You can't go wrong with either IMO. game.
1) Both companies products are reliable as hell and have great reputations for QUALITY. Loads and loads of old vintage AKG/Schoeps
still being used as main workhorses.
2) Both companies have great modular systems for their many individual SDC mics.
3) If going LDC route the AKG 414's are a taper fav.
4) While AKG does have a remote system(caps separate from bodies for low pro)
Schoeps has the market on active/remote set-ups.
5) If you go the AKG route you will save a buttload of cash at least in the SDC game.
However, Schoeps does have more polar pattern cap options but with a huge price difference
even without the active option, the body cap standard mic has a huge price gap.

NEITHER COMPANY WILL DISAPPOINT for what we do here.
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline newplanet7

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2011, 02:54:11 AM »
What's the big difference?!?!
I have no qualitative knowledge, but quantitatively I'm going to say the price tag is a pretty big difference.
It's hard to put a price on reliability.
Both products/companies are extremely reliable and will both be here for some time to come.
I haven't heard anything negative about either Companies service. Not ever.
What's great IMO, is you almost never hear about problems with either companies products
having to go back to the manufacturer.
So which has the upperhand? Not sure.
I've heard great things about Jerry from Posthorn, and also have heard great things about Richard Land
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline darby

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2011, 07:01:42 AM »
I have ran AKGs since 88 and love them
I have ran 41s thru a V3 and liked the sound as well, but for me the price tag isn't in my ballpark
even if I owned schoeps, I don't own a stereo nice enough to really take advantage of the subtle differences

Offline tgakidis

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2011, 08:06:44 AM »
Both great companies with lots of options.  As you can tell by my signature, I am an AKG man all the way.  For me, the value/performance vs. cost is a no brainer.  AKG's are a much better value then scheops, bottom line.  If you added up all my AKG Gear and purchased the comprable scheops products (even used) you would go bankrupt.
GAKables: Custom XLR, Digi & Batt Cables http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133186.0

Mics: Schoeps CMC6 x 4, Schoeps CMC1K x 2 / Schoeps KC 5G x 2 / Schoeps MK4,MK41,MK21,MK22 x 2 / Austrian Audio OC818 Dual Set+ / Telefunken TF-11 x 2 / Telefunken ELA M 260 x 4 / Telefunken M960FS x 2 / TK60,TK61,TK62 x 2 / Telefunken M60,TK60 x 2 / AKG c426b / AKG c34 / nBob AKG Actives>PFA x 4 / CK61,CK63,CK8 x 2 / AT853 4.7k Mod (Card,Sub)
Pres: Sonosax SX-AD8+ / Sonosax SX-M2D2 / Sonosax SX-M2 / Lunatec V3
Recs: Sonosax SX-R4+ / Sound Devices MixPre-6ii / Marantz PMD-661 / Roland R-07 / Zoom F3

My Recordings: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%28Gakidis%29&sort=-da

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2011, 09:10:05 AM »
483's still kick the crap out of any other hyper out there > Cold Hard Truth   >:D

If you intend to use the microphone solely as a hammer, then I agree.  But not if you intend to record.

What is the OPs playback system?  That makes a big difference in how a recording sounds.

Offline eclark

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2011, 09:16:53 AM »
I have 1 primary beef with the AKG house sound; The texture of the 8-11khz range (or there abouts) creates a "sizzle" that I think sounds like ass. It's just the color of the mics and not a tonal balance issue. Something about it just doesn't jive with my hearing.

Can you provide an example of this? I've heard this complaint as well, and have noticed it in one of my recordings (http://www.archive.org/details/db2007-06-30.akg451.flac16 about 7:30 into Digital Buddha note the guitar). Is this what you are talking about? I'm wondering if this is just a combination of a bad mix, me running the levels a bit too high, annoying disco biscuits trance, and bad playback. The highs are a little unlistenable at that part. BUT, now listen to the same show, and the Gamma Goblins jam. That has some room for potential sizzle!  If you listen to the Schoeps source, (http://www.archive.org/details/db2007-06-30.mk4.flac16) the guitar highs seem to be a bit more manageable at that same part (~7:30). Schoeps source, Gamma Goblins jam, actually I think sounds better than the AKGs, probably because the mics I were using were 20years old and weren't exactly "minty".. (let's just say I found them wrapped in duct tape, stored in a box with some other Shure SM58 mics). But maybe you could elaborate a bit more on the frequency range you were talking about. I'm not too sure about what the 8z-11k range sounds like... Note that this show was  outdoors, I was probably 100-150 ft from the stage, FOB, close to DFC.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 09:27:16 AM by eclark »
akg 460b + ck61 (-10db) > MixPre-D > Sony PCM M10

Offline eclark

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2011, 09:20:26 AM »
What is the OPs playback system?  That makes a big difference in how a recording sounds.

I have a pair of Sony MDR-V500 s headphones, not exactly high end. Some Bose Companion II desktop speakers, and mainly, the car stereo in my VW!
But not to say, I won't want to listen to these recordings (Phish) on a pair of MagnePans and a tube preamp, or Totems with a Audio Research power Amp  ;)
akg 460b + ck61 (-10db) > MixPre-D > Sony PCM M10

Offline page

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2011, 09:42:57 AM »
I'm not too sure about what the 8z-11k range sounds like...

mostly cymbal, some voice articulation shows up there as well. 12-14khz sounds like "air" in my experience for lack of a better description.

Can you provide an example of this?

I'll listen to the samples when I get home this evening but when I notice it most is in listening to someone ride a cymbal. I remember it's more promonant on the 480s than the 460s but I find it on both.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

Offline Myco

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2011, 09:49:27 AM »
If i was limited to only these two, I'd pick the AKG's. That being said, I'd say neither and stop wasting your time, go to the Microtech Gefell's. These would be examples of German's who actually know what they're doing.  ;D  ;)
Microtech Gefell M200: M20/M21/M27 caps> Bumblebee MiAGi-II/Darktrain silver cable's/"Chuck" Belden cables> Aerco MP-2 or Busman modded DR-680 pre-amps> Darktrain cables & interconnects> Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
AT853's(card's/hyper's)>AT8533x>Aerco MP-2>Sony M10

Offline Myco

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2011, 09:53:12 AM »
483's still kick the crap out of any other hyper out there > Cold Hard Truth   >:D

If you intend to use the microphone solely as a hammer, then I agree.  But not if you intend to record.

What is the OPs playback system?  That makes a big difference in how a recording sounds.

 :clapping:
Microtech Gefell M200: M20/M21/M27 caps> Bumblebee MiAGi-II/Darktrain silver cable's/"Chuck" Belden cables> Aerco MP-2 or Busman modded DR-680 pre-amps> Darktrain cables & interconnects> Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
AT853's(card's/hyper's)>AT8533x>Aerco MP-2>Sony M10

Offline raymonda

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2011, 10:34:03 AM »
I have AKG's, Neumann's, Schoeps and many, many others that I use. The AKG's are a good mic and one I use for particular purposes but rarely, if ever, now that I have a large selection of mics, do I use them for 2 point stereo. That's not to say that they don't make a great recording, they do.........and I would certainly recomend anyone to use them...........It is that they don't seem to create the same organic 3d soundfield as other mics I have, with the exception of the 414's and the C12's. That being said, often times the way you configure the pair for recording will have more of an impact on sound than the mic itself. Tony S., has his recording technique down to a science and gets consistantly the best sound from the mics he uses, and has so for a long time. He will sacrafice demensional soundfield for a tight, full sound, which has a strong appeal. He made during the 80's, some of the best recording with nak 300's that I have heard....and I'm not a big nak fan due to their coloration. But he knows how to use them and get the best out of them.

As for tonal balance, I find it a bit difficult to complain about this when recording PA systems, which are usually pretty colored to begin with. As long as the mic is within close tonal striking range, I can usually get acceptable results. The sound of the PA will bother me more than the sound of the mic. I think it is certainly more valid when disussing naturally mic'ed instruments in real space. That being said.......Scheops and Neumann and 414's seem more natural to my ear. However, situation may lend you to wanting a certain sound and thus reaching for that mic.

The old saying is, "Mic's are like crayons......Grab the color for the job that needs to get done".

Offline eclark

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2011, 10:47:02 AM »
The old saying is, "Mic's are like crayons......Grab the color for the job that needs to get done".
thanks for the input
akg 460b + ck61 (-10db) > MixPre-D > Sony PCM M10

Offline acidjack

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2011, 02:25:42 PM »
I myself own both (Schoeps Mk41s and AKG 414s) and I owned AKG ck91 and ck93 in the past.  Between me and the other nyctaper guys I get to hear a good bit of Schoeps (Mk41, Mk5, Mk4V), AKG (2 sets of 414s), DPA (3 sets of 4021s) and Neumann (KM150).  Let's just get this out of the way - in terms of pure value and bang for the buck, the AKG product line wins hands down, particularly in the LD mic that gives you every pattern for ~$1200-1400 used.

That said, obviously, the statement you made about "Schoeps" was a blanket statement that includes, potentially, a wide range of products.  I feel like the "Schoeps are boomy" comment applies primarily to the MK4 cap, recording PA systems.  Let's leave aside for a moment other applications, like onstage, etc.  To me, the MK4 and DPA 402x are pretty comparable in that they are both pretty accurate but also pretty dark.  When recording a boomy PA system, especially in a sub-optimum placement, they will let you know.  A steady and judicious hand with the EQ, however, can turn recordings with these mics consistently into gold, as they give you a very pure reproduction to work with.  AKGs are brighter off the bat - the 414 B-XLS being specifically built with an HF bump, just like the MK5 - so it is not surprising that an un-EQ'd recording with them that you heard on the LMA might be preferable to, say, the MK4.

If you're talking solely about stereo pairs, recording PA systems, before EQ, I'd say among what  my buddies and I have done, having the chance to compare different sources of the same show, I prefer the Schoeps MK5 the most often, the MK41 next, the AKG 414 after that, then the Neumanns (which can either be best or worst, depending on application, given their response pattern) and DPAs.  But again, that's a tight set of criteria - I (and the guys I record with) almost always use at least some EQ, and we don't do plain vanilla stereo all that often.   I suspect my feelings about the Schoeps MK4 would be closer to my feelings about the DPAs, based on the MK4 pulls I've heard.     

What raymonda said is the real truth, which is different mics have different ideal uses.   But I would say that, having had the chance to try out some of the high-end kinds, and not considering price, the Schoeps not only sound the best, but they offer by far the most diversity of possible setups with their wide range of capsule offerings, cablings, mounts, etc.  Obviously their customer service is excellent, although I would suggest DPAs is even better as they have a stateside office for servicing, whereas Schoeps requires you to go through a distributor back to Europe.

Price aside, I think Schoeps wins hands-down in sound quality, versatility and size.  If I were not considering size but was considering price, I don't see how you could do a lot better than the AKG 414s, and for an SDC, certainly, the 46x and 48x mics are a very high quality mic that costs less than Schoeps, DPA or Neumann.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 02:28:38 PM by acidjack »
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline Myco

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2011, 02:39:29 PM »
I can see you having the preferences you do in the other mic's, but Neumann's over Gefell's?!?! That's just blasphemy! I also don't know why Gefell's are not even in this discussion. The M21's & M27's smoke any other hyper or omni.  ;D
Microtech Gefell M200: M20/M21/M27 caps> Bumblebee MiAGi-II/Darktrain silver cable's/"Chuck" Belden cables> Aerco MP-2 or Busman modded DR-680 pre-amps> Darktrain cables & interconnects> Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
AT853's(card's/hyper's)>AT8533x>Aerco MP-2>Sony M10

Offline acidjack

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2011, 02:49:56 PM »
I can see you having the preferences you do in the other mic's, but Neumann's over Gefell's?!?! That's just blasphemy! I also don't know why Gefell's are not even in this discussion. The M21's & M27's smoke any other hyper or omni.  ;D

To be honest, I owned the MG210s that SmokinJoe now has (traded for his 414s).  For the bands I record and places I record I did not care for them AT ALL - every pull I did was just nasty and midrange-y.  I didn't do that many pulls with them, and I know how beloved they are, but they just didn't do it for me.  Again, speaking solely of what I recorded and where, I found they had the thin low-end of the 150s without the crisp high-end.  Again, this is speaking solely to my own situation, not to the great pulls others seem to get with them.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2011, 02:50:43 PM »
this is the first time i have ever seen someone disagree that the ck63 hypers are not the best
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
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Offline Chuck

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2011, 02:57:24 PM »
I can see you having the preferences you do in the other mic's, but Neumann's over Gefell's?!?! That's just blasphemy! I also don't know why Gefell's are not even in this discussion. The M21's & M27's smoke any other hyper or omni.  ;D

To be honest, I owned the MG210s that SmokinJoe now has (traded for his 414s).  For the bands I record and places I record I did not care for them AT ALL - every pull I did was just nasty and midrange-y.  I didn't do that many pulls with them, and I know how beloved they are, but they just didn't do it for me.  Again, speaking solely of what I recorded and where, I found they had the thin low-end of the 150s without the crisp high-end.  Again, this is speaking solely to my own situation, not to the great pulls others seem to get with them.

The Gefells do have a more pronounced mid-range. Which to my ears is a good thing sometimes when compared to the AKG's which I describe as having a more scooped mid-range sound. I find that scooped AKG mid-range sound often sounds good when recording PA systems.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
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Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
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Offline Myco

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2011, 03:03:11 PM »
I agree there is a more pronounced mid-range with the Gefells. One thing I do that helps alot with bringing in the low end is to use the right pre-amp. A transformer based pre-amp like the Neve Portico 5012 or Aerco MP-2 really brings in some great low end to the mix. A V3 is just too clean and didn't do it for me, but the transformer based pre's help out with that a lot. I'm about ready to post my pull from the Panic show in Boston, i'll post a link once it's done. If you don't think the Gefell's can give you the bottom end you want, check out my Jane's Addiction pull from the Vibes in the kickdown section.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 03:06:42 PM by Myco »
Microtech Gefell M200: M20/M21/M27 caps> Bumblebee MiAGi-II/Darktrain silver cable's/"Chuck" Belden cables> Aerco MP-2 or Busman modded DR-680 pre-amps> Darktrain cables & interconnects> Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
AT853's(card's/hyper's)>AT8533x>Aerco MP-2>Sony M10

Offline eclark

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2011, 03:05:36 PM »
Can anyone comment on the internals of the AKG vs Schoeps vs et al SD mics? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the stock 460s are transformer based (what does this mean?!), the 460 mod removes the transformer, and the 480s are transformer-less. What about Schoeps? I'm not too sure how these mics actually work, and what inside makes them unique.
akg 460b + ck61 (-10db) > MixPre-D > Sony PCM M10

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2011, 03:10:11 PM »
I still think it's better to think in terms of color/texture/character rather than tonal balance. You can generally fix that (but it would be nice if it wasn't required), but if you don't like the warmth/smoothness/grain/grit or color that comes across in a recording, you're SOL.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

Offline hi and lo

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2011, 03:15:40 PM »
I agree with everything Acidjack said, 110%.

Offline acidjack

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2011, 03:33:18 PM »
I agree there is a more pronounced mid-range with the Gefells. One thing I do that helps alot with bringing in the low end is to use the right pre-amp. A transformer based pre-amp like the Neve Portico 5012 or Aerco MP-2 really brings in some great low end to the mix. A V3 is just too clean and didn't do it for me, but the transformer based pre's help out with that a lot. I'm about ready to post my pull from the Panic show in Boston, i'll post a link once it's done. If you don't think the Gefell's can give you the bottom end you want, check out my Jane's Addiction pull from the Vibes in the kickdown section.

Yeah, like I said, I was only commenting on my own experience (which I guess everyone is) and not the mic generally.  There are obviously fewer Gefell pulls in general to make comparisons against than Schoeps/AKG, too.  I will listen to those samples.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline Todd R

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2011, 03:45:45 PM »
I agree with everything Acidjack said, 110%.

I respect most of what acidjack says, though I don't agree with it since I really don't care for the schoeps sound.  His attack on my beloved Gefells that I sold to him, well that was just uncalled for.  :P

Lots of good info and opinions in this thread, felt I could reply and respond to almost every post.  In general, I am ok with the AKG sound (esp the 460/480 sound since I owned them and know them), and I don't like the schoeps (small diameter) sound -- worse with the mk4's compared to the 41's or 4v's, but across the range, I'm just not a schoeps fan.  (Their product range is just to die for though -- man what options!).  So overall, I'd always choose AKGs over schoeps.

I agree with Page though on the 10k-ish Hz hash for the 460/480s.  It doesn't bother me as much as Page, since I still am ok with AKG sources, but I do hear it and notice it.

On the Gefells -- one of my favorite mics I've owned (which is a fair amount), and I like them right up there with DPAs and Milabs.  I agree though that they seem to emphasize the midrange.  Overall, I generally liked this for PA recordings since the subwoofers are almost always up too high so there is too much bass in the room/recording, and I think esp with line array systems, soundmen seem to really push the treble, so toning down the low and the highs of PA recordings and accentuating the mids helps to my ear.  Again, this is what works against the AKGs for me (though Chuck prefers it) -- there is a slight scooping of the mids on AKGs which I don't prefer.

My favorite mics of the typical taper mics?:  of my favorites, DPA, Milab, and Gefell first.  Followed by Neumanns, followed fairly closely by AKGs, and Audio Technicas for that matter (AT4041 which I owned, AT4022 which I own, AT4051's -- all very, very underrated in my book).  Schoeps and MBHOs -- really don't even make it in my list, I find I just don't like their sound all that much. (My apologies to the rather extensive MBHO and schoeps loving CO Crew.)


willdmb -- never heard anyone argue that AKG 483's aren't the best hyper?  Man, how could you miss all the Gefell m210 disciples and their fluffing?  :P
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 03:53:51 PM by Todd R »
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline Todd R

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2011, 03:52:12 PM »
Oh, I forgot -- I'd put Beyerdynamics right up there with Neumanns, or close anyway, and ahead of AKGs.  I've got Acidjack's old pair of Beyer mc950's that I really like.  They have a very different sound than DPAs, Milabs, or Neumanns, and are definitely in the dark sounding camp for me. 

I have never liked any of the mics that I would characterize as dark sounding, my ear is just not tuned to it, but the mc950s are dark sounding, but still I love them.  For mics in the midrange of expense level (as opposed to high cost schoeps, neumanns, DPAs, and Senns), I think more people should think about Beyers.  Esp on a value vs cost comparison, which seems to be where AKGs fall, I think the Beyers give AKGs a run for their money.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline Myco

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2011, 03:55:02 PM »
I agree there is a more pronounced mid-range with the Gefells. One thing I do that helps alot with bringing in the low end is to use the right pre-amp. A transformer based pre-amp like the Neve Portico 5012 or Aerco MP-2 really brings in some great low end to the mix. A V3 is just too clean and didn't do it for me, but the transformer based pre's help out with that a lot. I'm about ready to post my pull from the Panic show in Boston, i'll post a link once it's done. If you don't think the Gefell's can give you the bottom end you want, check out my Jane's Addiction pull from the Vibes in the kickdown section.

Yeah, like I said, I was only commenting on my own experience (which I guess everyone is) and not the mic generally.  There are obviously fewer Gefell pulls in general to make comparisons against than Schoeps/AKG, too.  I will listen to those samples.

This Panic from 9/16 will be the best one to check out. If you check out the jane's show, go to about the 3rd song in and from there on the soundguy was able to get his kick-drum mix under control, for the first two songs he had them way too high in the mix. Some other taper's did bass roll-off, but I didn't for that one, I just tried to manipulate it through the mixing percentages of the omni's & card's. I posted the show as a omni's & hyper's mix, but I didn't realize until later that I was actually running my card's instead of the hypers. D'oh!
Microtech Gefell M200: M20/M21/M27 caps> Bumblebee MiAGi-II/Darktrain silver cable's/"Chuck" Belden cables> Aerco MP-2 or Busman modded DR-680 pre-amps> Darktrain cables & interconnects> Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
AT853's(card's/hyper's)>AT8533x>Aerco MP-2>Sony M10

Offline Myco

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2011, 04:00:24 PM »
Oh, I forgot -- I'd put Beyerdynamics right up there with Neumanns, or close anyway, and ahead of AKGs.  I've got Acidjack's old pair of Beyer mc950's that I really like.  They have a very different sound than DPAs, Milabs, or Neumanns, and are definitely in the dark sounding camp for me. 

I have never liked any of the mics that I would characterize as dark sounding, my ear is just not tuned to it, but the mc950s are dark sounding, but still I love them.  For mics in the midrange of expense level (as opposed to high cost schoeps, neumanns, DPAs, and Senns), I think more people should think about Beyers.  Esp on a value vs cost comparison, which seems to be where AKGs fall, I think the Beyers give AKGs a run for their money.

I tend to agree with you on this.

Generally speaking though, when it comes down to it, it all depends on your preferences when listening to music. Some like darker sounding sources, some like a little brighter sounding sources, I like a nice clear sounding recording, with a little added thump. To say one is truly better than the other would be like saying the best flavor of ice cream is....., there will never be a consensus. Let your ears tell you what's right for you is what I think.
Microtech Gefell M200: M20/M21/M27 caps> Bumblebee MiAGi-II/Darktrain silver cable's/"Chuck" Belden cables> Aerco MP-2 or Busman modded DR-680 pre-amps> Darktrain cables & interconnects> Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
AT853's(card's/hyper's)>AT8533x>Aerco MP-2>Sony M10

Offline acidjack

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2011, 04:15:04 PM »
It seems to me that dark vs. bright is one of the most common distinctions in taste.  Also seems Gefell aficionados use the term "smooth" a lot.    I think what I may think of as "midrange-y" may be what others think of as "smooth" - and by the way, I suspect that smooth sound is much better for some kinds of music than others (FWIW I liked recordings Todd and Joe have made with that same pair of mics; just didn't like mine).   

To me Schoeps are not as "smooth" but have more "punch" to how they sound in the bottom and mid-bottom end.  I love how drums sound with them, for example.  For the music I often record, I find that to be a pleasing characteristic, but maybe if I were recording a lot of jazz, maybe not (like a lot of people, I checked out that old onstage comp of several flavors of Schoeps and one set of Gefells; in that comp, I'd agree the Gefells won). 

Part of why I like the Schoeps MK5 so much is that, to my ear, it retains that nice low end punch, but adds that brightness and sparkle up top.  I've heard those mics (well, hi and lo's set, specifically) sound great on NOLA jazz, indie rock, electronic music, etc.  They sound, un-EQ'd, about the way I am to get my DPA pulls post-EQ.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline Todd R

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2011, 04:23:39 PM »
On the Gefells, I should add:  for awhile, I had traded in my V3 for an EAA PSP2, and I think all of the recordings I made with the Gefells (or close to it) used the PSP2.  It might be that it was the m210>PSP2 pairing that worked best.  I think someone earlier noted that the Gefells pair well with a transformer preamp, that could be the case.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline hi and lo

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2011, 04:28:55 PM »

It seems to me that dark vs. bright is one of the most common distinctions in taste.

There are many ways to describe a microphone and this is, without question, my least favorite set of adjectives. They're thrown around far too often and do such a disservice to the nuances that make or break a live recording. You *might* get me to say that universally MBHO's and Neumann KM150's are bright, but there are no other microphones that I would call dark or bright.


Part of why I like the Schoeps MK5 so much is that, to my ear, it retains that nice low end punch, but adds that brightness and sparkle up top.  I've heard those mics (well, hi and lo's set, specifically) sound great on NOLA jazz, indie rock, electronic music, etc.  They sound, un-EQ'd, about the way I am to get my DPA pulls post-EQ.

 ;D

Having owned 4s, 4vs, 5s and 41s, I can confidently tell you that the 5s are my favorite. I appreciate that their HF bump is smoother than the 4vs and of course who can argue with two patterns in one! They always sound so much more natural and pleasing than the 41s and while they might not always be as appropriate in certain situations as the hypers, pound-for-pound I will appreciate a perfect 5 recording more than a 41 recording.

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2011, 04:36:54 PM »
On the Gefells, I should add:  for awhile, I had traded in my V3 for an EAA PSP2, and I think all of the recordings I made with the Gefells (or close to it) used the PSP2.  It might be that it was the m210>PSP2 pairing that worked best.  I think someone earlier noted that the Gefells pair well with a transformer preamp, that could be the case.

agreed, the psp2 can a nice compliment in color/texture to the gefell series. Texturally I find the gefell m2x series have a grit in the presence range which reminds me of a schoeps/sonosax or beyer/sonosax combo. The PSP2 adds a layer of butter smoothness to it to reduce that grit (whether warrented or not) and add some warmth in the low-mid range. Really a nice pairing depending on what your taping. Not sure which is easier anymore, finding a PSP2 or replicating the sound...  :P

I remember when you did the comp between a INA163 chipset (that the V3 uses) and the PSP2 with the gefells.
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Offline hi and lo

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2011, 04:45:35 PM »
The PSP-2 is lightyears ahead of every modern day 2-channel preamp. :)

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2011, 05:45:38 PM »
The PSP-2 is lightyears ahead of every modern day 2-channel preamp. :)

Agreed.   Still, there are still a lot of things I like the v3 for.

The psp-2 is a *very* sophisticated design in terms of what is in that little box.  There are four circuit boards. It's really well engineered and well packaged.  It's also extermely miserly in terms of power consumption.


Regarding Schoeps, the folks over on Gearslutz generally *love* them.  They love the mk2, mk21 and mk4 for classical music recording, and other live recording.  So say what you will about bloat or dark, or whatever; when it comes down to recording actual instruments in great rooms.........  I really like the mk21's. For cards and hypers, I prefer the Gefells.

Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2011, 05:51:44 PM »
The PSP-2 is lightyears ahead of every modern day 2-channel preamp. :)

Not biased, are you?  ;)

Regarding the OP's question, I've heard many great Schoeps pulls and many great AKG pulls.  Conversely, I've heard a lot of crappy pulls with both mics, too.  This is just my own experience, but there was a time where I would talk with tapers who bragged about running Schoeps and getting their "sick pulls", I would listen to them and they sounded like ass to my ears.  I realized after that there are/were a group of noob tapers who feel that just because they have the most expensive and regarded microphones, that automatically means they'll get the best recordings.  Tantamount to thinking that if you own a Ferrari, you'll automatically drive as well as Ben Collins or Mario Andretti.  The case was that they really didn't know what they were doing and that their bad results were due to the user and not the mics. 

All that said, my preferences run to AKG and DPA, but I wouldn't mind a set of MK41's or MK5's.

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2011, 06:33:12 PM »
It looks like in the original post that you answered the question for yourself already.  If the AKG's sounded better to you in every sample than you should buy AKG.  Everyone has their own opinion of what sounds good and if that is what sounded the best to you then go get them.  Personal preference is what influenced me to get my AKG's, I liked that sound the best. I didn't go for the "If it cost more, It must be better" way of thinking,  I listened like you did and bought what sounded good to me.

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2011, 07:22:23 PM »
It looks like in the original post that you answered the question for yourself already.  If the AKG's sounded better to you in every sample than you should buy AKG.

Ummm, no. You cannot listen to LMA sources in a vacuum to make these important buying decisions. It was better in the days of patching when you could be at the show and see first hand how a rig was run, but w/o any first hand knowlege of how the rig was run you are just asking for buyers remorse.

Offline eclark

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2011, 08:43:30 PM »
I've got an ISO in the Yard Sale right now.. I think the 460s fit my budget right now.. but I really want the 480s. Hope someone send me a sweet deal on the 480s! The purpose of this thread isn't to influence my buying decision, only to support it! haha j/k!

Hopefully other people can use this thread as a source of information. No one seemed to address my comment at the top of page 3 though.

What makes these mics unique? What about the internals? transformers vs transformer-less? What makes these mics SO unique?
akg 460b + ck61 (-10db) > MixPre-D > Sony PCM M10

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2011, 09:16:48 PM »
Last fall, I had bought a set of 460's with CK61 caps for around what I think you are looking to pay and then I had a sweet pair of 480's with CK61 fall into my lap for the same price as the 460's.  So, miracles do happen.
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Offline Scooter123

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2011, 10:08:34 PM »
AKG are full bodied, and there may be problems with Stealth
My Mk4 > Actives > Nbox are a small footprint solution

AKG, to me ears, sound "accurate" and "crisp"  A negative way of saying the same thing is they sound tinny. 
Mk4, to me sounds "warm".  A negative way of saying the same thing is "bassy" or boomy"

I used Church and SP mikes for over 18 months while I listened to, and evaluated, the best sounding shows I could find on The Dime.  I knew I was going to drop a bundle, and I wanted to be methodical about it.  And I drew up a list.  Out of about 100 shows which were fantastic, about 40 of them were Schoeps mk4, and another 30 of them were Neumanns KM140-150s, the rest were a hodge podge of DPA, AKGs and even some internal Zoom shows.  Once I looked at that list, I picked Schoeps for the smaller footprint vs Neumanns.  I've been running them for about 3 years now. 

On bass heavy shows, I just run highpass at 60htz sometimes 80htz, and that solves the problem 90% of the time. 

I can't afford two rigs, but if I could, my second rig would be KM150s > Preamp > Recorder. 

If you've already evaluated the mikes then you've probably made your decision.
Regards,
Scooter123

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #50 on: October 14, 2011, 11:01:37 PM »
It looks like in the original post that you answered the question for yourself already.  If the AKG's sounded better to you in every sample than you should buy AKG.

Ummm, no. You cannot listen to LMA sources in a vacuum to make these important buying decisions. It was better in the days of patching when you could be at the show and see first hand how a rig was run, but w/o any first hand knowlege of how the rig was run you are just asking for buyers remorse.

I'm going to split the difference and say that listening to the LMA is beneficial, but it won't tell you lots of things that you might expect. I thought the milab vm44s were bass anemic but every now and then I'd hear a tape that was the normal boom/bass that I was accustomed to, none were EQed, but it was a different environment. It took a lot of effort to figure out the sound signature and that takes experience.

I've heard recordings made with my beyers that were similarly bright and brittle, and recordings which have so much bass it makes your genitals rattle. Without being there to hear the environment and see the setup, it's tough (but do-able given enough recordings).

What makes these mics unique? What about the internals? transformers vs transformer-less? What makes these mics SO unique?

the 460s have transformers, but most professional SD mics nowadays are transformerless. The magic is in the caps.  ;)
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Offline burris

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2011, 03:15:37 PM »
If you can afford and live with the sound of either then you should get Schoeps.  For the sole reason that AKG doesn't make "active cables" to separate capsules from the bodies or make an equivalent to the CCM models.  Weigh the benefits of a lightweight, easy to setup and teardown rig, with comprehensive accessories available over a marginal improvement in sound at best.  No matter what you're trying to do, Schoeps makes capsules and accessories to do it discreetly and professionally.  A nice, tight, professional looking rig goes a long way with venue managers and other people that might want to shut you down.

Active cables and the specific stereo bars make setup and teardown way faster and easier than a pair of full mics on a generic stereo bar.  That can make the difference between getting the whole show and missing the first couple of minutes.  Either because you were late getting in because of a huge clusterfuck outside, or because you took too long tearing down from the previous show to get to the next one on time (Jazzfest!!)  Also consider the size and mass of mics on the top of your stand.  The bigger/heavier the mics the more likely your stand will go down when a drunkard stumbles into it and the more likely some busybody will notice it and make you move.  Also consider what will happen when you want to extend a stand out from the balcony or hang your mics from their cable.  Smaller is definitely better.

A smaller/lighter rig, because the mics and mounts are smaller, will be a huge blessing when you have to run to get a good spot.  Or when you must carry your rig around all day at a festival or on a European tour (I practically slept with my rig on phish euro tour '97.)  How about when you're walking down a sketchy street back to your car at 3am?  Definitely a time to have as small a target as possible.

Sometimes you have no choice but to clamp onto someone elses stand and that's a lot easier when your mics are small.  When you have big mics on a standard stereo bar you're probably going to have to clamp lower than you would with a small active setup.  If the stand isn't going very high you might be at head level or near the floor when taping downstage.

Get small mics, they give you options and help you avoid bad situations.

Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2011, 06:08:43 PM »
Not a bad argument, burris, but if having a small rig is of paramount importance, the OP should also check out the DPA 402x series of mics.  Very small and closer than Schoeps to the sonic signature of the AKG's, IMO, which the OP seems to prefer.

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2011, 09:44:55 AM »
Good argument burris, but it also emphasizes how it would be great if the designers focused more on getting us at least one active option for AKG's and Gefell's instead making an ever increasing array of options for Schoeps mic's. The reason many go with the Schoeps is exactly because the market is flooded with active options, but the rest of us get pushed to the side for new Schoeps options. Don't we have enough Schoeps options already? It's extremely frustrating. :P

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« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 09:47:07 AM by Myco »
Microtech Gefell M200: M20/M21/M27 caps> Bumblebee MiAGi-II/Darktrain silver cable's/"Chuck" Belden cables> Aerco MP-2 or Busman modded DR-680 pre-amps> Darktrain cables & interconnects> Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
AT853's(card's/hyper's)>AT8533x>Aerco MP-2>Sony M10

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2011, 09:57:53 AM »
I think the hard truth is there just isn't enough demand for actives to make it worth while for those companys, It takes time and money to develop and would likely not get there money back,   AKG has tried it a couple times and discontinued both(blueline and 460's), you guys have to remember us tapers are just a minute faction in the microphone world, your AKG and Gefell dreams will most likely come from custom jobs. Listen i know Gefell's are good, but reality is very few people have em, so to develop something for such a minor % of users makes very little business sense, unless the same development of say the AKG stuff in the "hopper" could be used for them.

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2011, 10:40:37 AM »
I think the hard truth is there just isn't enough demand for actives to make it worth while for those companys, It takes time and money to develop and would likely not get there money back,   AKG has tried it a couple times and discontinued both(blueline and 460's), you guys have to remember us tapers are just a minute faction in the microphone world, your AKG and Gefell dreams will most likely come from custom jobs. Listen i know Gefell's are good, but reality is very few people have em, so to develop something for such a minor % of users makes very little business sense, unless the same development of say the AKG stuff in the "hopper" could be used for them.

That's the thing, AKG's and Gefell's could be used interchangably in the same design, it's been done before and discontinued. The custom jobbers were what I was talking about also. Schoeps has their own setup, but the custom jobbers churn out more and more options for Schoeps, but totally disregard the AKG's & Gefell users who could be accomodated together with the same design. You can't say that people don't own AKG's also. AKG's & Gefell together could amount to a significant market if someone bothered to tap it. Most designers do not wait until there is actual orders for a product, they go out and build it and create demand for it. People can't buy what doesn't exist on the market.
Microtech Gefell M200: M20/M21/M27 caps> Bumblebee MiAGi-II/Darktrain silver cable's/"Chuck" Belden cables> Aerco MP-2 or Busman modded DR-680 pre-amps> Darktrain cables & interconnects> Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
AT853's(card's/hyper's)>AT8533x>Aerco MP-2>Sony M10

Offline acidjack

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2011, 10:46:14 AM »
The PSP-2 is lightyears ahead of every modern day 2-channel preamp. :)

Not biased, are you?  ;)

Regarding the OP's question, I've heard many great Schoeps pulls and many great AKG pulls.  Conversely, I've heard a lot of crappy pulls with both mics, too.  This is just my own experience, but there was a time where I would talk with tapers who bragged about running Schoeps and getting their "sick pulls", I would listen to them and they sounded like ass to my ears.  I realized after that there are/were a group of noob tapers who feel that just because they have the most expensive and regarded microphones, that automatically means they'll get the best recordings.  Tantamount to thinking that if you own a Ferrari, you'll automatically drive as well as Ben Collins or Mario Andretti.  The case was that they really didn't know what they were doing and that their bad results were due to the user and not the mics. 

All that said, my preferences run to AKG and DPA, but I wouldn't mind a set of MK41's or MK5's.

Much truth to that :)
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline acidjack

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2011, 10:50:23 AM »
I think the hard truth is there just isn't enough demand for actives to make it worth while for those companys, It takes time and money to develop and would likely not get there money back,   AKG has tried it a couple times and discontinued both(blueline and 460's), you guys have to remember us tapers are just a minute faction in the microphone world, your AKG and Gefell dreams will most likely come from custom jobs. Listen i know Gefell's are good, but reality is very few people have em, so to develop something for such a minor % of users makes very little business sense, unless the same development of say the AKG stuff in the "hopper" could be used for them.

That's the thing, AKG's and Gefell's could be used interchangably in the same design, it's been done before and discontinued. The custom jobbers were what I was talking about also. Schoeps has their own setup, but the custom jobbers churn out more and more options for Schoeps, but totally disregard the AKG's & Gefell users who could be accomodated together with the same design. You can't say that people don't own AKG's also. AKG's & Gefell together could amount to a significant market if someone bothered to tap it. Most designers do not wait until there is actual orders for a product, they go out and build it and create demand for it. People can't buy what doesn't exist on the market.

Taking a wild guess here, but I assume AKGs are more popular in total sales and use than Schoeps, no?  I'm assuming that just based on them being cheaper.  But, perhaps the applications for which 480s are most used are different than the common ones for Schoeps and DPAs, whose active designs are, I believe, primarily for use in hanging choir-type mounts or film sound effects where you need a little mic that's out of the way. 

That said, I can't imagine why an active option wouldn't be desirable for AKG since they must want a piece of that business.  But as Darktrain noted, they've tried and failed...
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2011, 12:54:03 PM »
Just get a pair of AKG Made vintage Telefunken ELAM 251's and call it a day!
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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2011, 01:24:06 PM »
I ran AKG480's (mostly 483's) for a little over 2 years, and I made hundreds of tapes with them.  This year I got Schoeps, and I've made probably 50 tapes with them.  I still own a pair of AKG460's, only with CK8's at the moment.

The AKG 460's and 480's have that "AKG sizzle".  Whether that's good or bad is a matter of opinion.  I will give the 483's a lot of credit in that when you are in a bad boomy place, they will cut through the mud and come back with a "decent" tape when most of my other mics wouldn't.  But that sizzle is fatiguing to me.  I don't know if I've ever sat down with a pair of headphones and listened to a whole show I made with my 480's... after a few songs I get itchy to do something else.  I'm not sure the sizzle "fixes" the boominess, so much as it covers it up by force.  If you put too much salt on your mashed potatoes, you can throw a bunch of pepper on there, and soon you can't taste the salt any more, all you taste is pepper.  Whether the overwhelming pepper is better than the overwhelming salt... that's a matter of personal opinion.

I've never gotten a muddy tape with my Schoeps, at least not thus far.  The Schoeps are "accurate"... and if the sound sucks in the room, you will hear that on your tape.  The AKG's are perhaps more forgiving of that.

For me it all comes down to this next statement, which is probably not going to make sense to a lot of people... to me the AKG's scream like a little kid "Look at me! Listen how awesome I sound!!", and they do sound awesome, but after a while I get tired of that screaming kid.   The Schoeps are like a calm voice saying "don't listen to the mics... listen to the music..." and I actually can relax and listen to he music.  No hype, no fatigue, enjoy the music.

What have continued to blow me away in the time that I've owned them are the Gefell hypers.  No overwhelming sizzle, great smoothness.  To me they sound "as good" as any other hypers I've used.  I like that fact that I have whole mics with caps and bodies for the same price as Schoeps caps, that allows me to run on 2 festival stages.

I definitely don't think anyone can make a blanket statement like "Gefells are better than AKG's, and Schoeps are better than Gefells".  Some nights this mic will sound better than that mic, another night it's the other way around.  And what you like this year, will probably change to something else you like better next year.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 01:25:52 PM by SmokinJoe »
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
Pres: V3 / ST9100
Decks: Oade Concert Mod R4Pro / R09 / R05
Photo: Nikon D700's, 2.8 Zooms, and Zeiss primes
Playback: Raspberry Pi > Modi2 Uber > Magni2 > HD650

Offline acidjack

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2011, 02:12:31 PM »

What have continued to blow me away in the time that I've owned them are the Gefell hypers.  No overwhelming sizzle, great smoothness.   To me they sound "as good" as any other hypers I've used.  I like that fact that I have whole mics with caps and bodies for the same price as Schoeps caps, that allows me to run on 2 festival stages.

I definitely don't think anyone can make a blanket statement like "Gefells are better than AKG's, and Schoeps are better than Gefells".  Some nights this mic will sound better than that mic, another night it's the other way around.  And what you like this year, will probably change to something else you like better next year.

Sounds like our trade worked out great on both ends. Glad to hear that  ;D
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline Myco

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2011, 02:38:36 PM »
I definitely don't think anyone can make a blanket statement like "Gefells are better than AKG's, and Schoeps are better than Gefells".  Some nights this mic will sound better than that mic, another night it's the other way around.  And what you like this year, will probably change to something else you like better next year.

I agree Joe. I think most of us are posting that kinda stuff "tongue-in-cheek". Location & the overall sound of the room can play an even bigger role than the mic's themselves. I've heard cheaper mics that sound awesome on some occassions, & I've heard expensive mics sound like absolute crap.
Microtech Gefell M200: M20/M21/M27 caps> Bumblebee MiAGi-II/Darktrain silver cable's/"Chuck" Belden cables> Aerco MP-2 or Busman modded DR-680 pre-amps> Darktrain cables & interconnects> Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
AT853's(card's/hyper's)>AT8533x>Aerco MP-2>Sony M10

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #62 on: October 19, 2011, 12:58:46 PM »
I definitely don't think anyone can make a blanket statement like "Gefells are better than AKG's, and Schoeps are better than Gefells".  Some nights this mic will sound better than that mic, another night it's the other way around.  And what you like this year, will probably change to something else you like better next year.

I agree Joe. I think most of us are posting that kinda stuff "tongue-in-cheek". Location & the overall sound of the room can play an even bigger role than the mic's themselves. I've heard cheaper mics that sound awesome on some occassions, & I've heard expensive mics sound like absolute crap.

The experienced guys know this.  But I think sometimes the newbies read what we write here and accept it as true wisdom.  If they only knew how full of shit we all are...
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 01:25:43 PM by SmokinJoe »
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
Pres: V3 / ST9100
Decks: Oade Concert Mod R4Pro / R09 / R05
Photo: Nikon D700's, 2.8 Zooms, and Zeiss primes
Playback: Raspberry Pi > Modi2 Uber > Magni2 > HD650

Offline hi and lo

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2011, 01:06:17 PM »
lol.. yes... we are all very much full of shit.  ;D

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2011, 02:51:04 PM »
lol.. yes... we are all very much full of shit.  ;D

but some of it's very high grade.  :D
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Offline skaggs

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #65 on: October 20, 2011, 08:32:57 PM »
It's Labrador......... ;D

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #66 on: October 20, 2011, 09:07:28 PM »
Lets see, if you had NO SPENDING LIMIT, I bet ALOT more people would buy/have Schoeps ;) :P ;D 8)
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

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Re: Schoeps or AKG ?
« Reply #67 on: October 20, 2011, 09:10:57 PM »
I ran AKG480's (mostly 483's) for a little over 2 years, and I made hundreds of tapes with them.  This year I got Schoeps, and I've made probably 50 tapes with them.  I still own a pair of AKG460's, only with CK8's at the moment.

The AKG 460's and 480's have that "AKG sizzle".  Whether that's good or bad is a matter of opinion.  I will give the 483's a lot of credit in that when you are in a bad boomy place, they will cut through the mud and come back with a "decent" tape when most of my other mics wouldn't.  But that sizzle is fatiguing to me.  I don't know if I've ever sat down with a pair of headphones and listened to a whole show I made with my 480's... after a few songs I get itchy to do something else.  I'm not sure the sizzle "fixes" the boominess, so much as it covers it up by force.  If you put too much salt on your mashed potatoes, you can throw a bunch of pepper on there, and soon you can't taste the salt any more, all you taste is pepper.  Whether the overwhelming pepper is better than the overwhelming salt... that's a matter of personal opinion.

I've never gotten a muddy tape with my Schoeps, at least not thus far.  The Schoeps are "accurate"... and if the sound sucks in the room, you will hear that on your tape.  The AKG's are perhaps more forgiving of that.

For me it all comes down to this next statement, which is probably not going to make sense to a lot of people... to me the AKG's scream like a little kid "Look at me! Listen how awesome I sound!!", and they do sound awesome, but after a while I get tired of that screaming kid.   The Schoeps are like a calm voice saying "don't listen to the mics... listen to the music..." and I actually can relax and listen to he music.  No hype, no fatigue, enjoy the music.

What have continued to blow me away in the time that I've owned them are the Gefell hypers.  No overwhelming sizzle, great smoothness.  To me they sound "as good" as any other hypers I've used.  I like that fact that I have whole mics with caps and bodies for the same price as Schoeps caps, that allows me to run on 2 festival stages.

I definitely don't think anyone can make a blanket statement like "Gefells are better than AKG's, and Schoeps are better than Gefells".  Some nights this mic will sound better than that mic, another night it's the other way around.  And what you like this year, will probably change to something else you like better next year.

VERY ACCURATE AND TRUE!!!! 100% agreed!
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

 

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