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Author Topic: Which high-end cardioids?  (Read 31745 times)

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Offline John Willett

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Re: Which high-end cardioids?
« Reply #75 on: June 01, 2012, 07:46:58 AM »
Currently, I record everything I go to with DPA 4060 > MMA6000 > R-09HR. The omnis are fine for most of my purposes, because almost everything is a standing gig and I record with my head in the stack. Crowd noise and boominess aren't really issues.

This year, however, I've got a number of arena shows coming up. Some of those are assigned seating and I can't pick and choose my recording location. Omnis won't excel there, so this is the perfect time to purchase some high-end cardioids.

The obvious choice, given my experience with DPA and my dearth of experience with anything else high-end, is the 4021/2/3 range. I know the cabling differences between the three, but I'm still not sure which to pick. When might it be useful to have LEMO connectors, for example? And if I'm pinning these mics to my jacket, do I want a rear connector, or would a side connector make it easier to aim the mics?

To avoid the need for a new battery box to interface between the mics and the R-09HR, I'm also looking to invest in a new recorder. The Roland R-44 is an obvious choice, but rather large and stealth is of paramount importance here. Given that requirement, the pick of the bunch seems to be the Marantz PMD-661. If anyone has any strong feelings about that choice, pro or con, I'd be interested in hearing them, but maybe I should start a second thread for that. I mention it here, because the purchase is directly related to the mic purchase. If I do get the PMD-661, I'll probably order through Oade and get their concert mod. They don't ship to Europe, though, so I'd have to use a freight forwarder and risk being slapped with massive import duties when the package gets here. It's probably still worth doing, though, to get that mod. I sometimes record acoustic music, so maybe the Super mod would be applicable, too. Opinions?

None of these decisions is set in stone at the moment. I'd consider Schoeps instead of DPA if I thought there was a good reason, but I've heard that Schoeps mics tend to colour the sound, producing warmth, which I'm not sure I want, as I'm someone who favours transparency. I have no experience with Schoeps, though. I suppose the equivalent of the 4021/2/3 is the CCM 4. Is that right? I believe those contain amps and could thus be plugged straight into the PMD-661.

Lots of new ground for me to break here and some potentially very expensive mistakes to avoid.  :)

Any help navigating the minefield would be very much appreciated.

Back to the OP.

The Sennheiser MKH 8040 are well worth considering - and, if you use the remote cable, can be very small indeed.

The Schoeps and DPA you have already mentioned.

The new Neumann KM-A/D series with KK184 heads is also worth a thought (again, remote cables are available).

The Gefell M300 stereo set is a very nice set of cardioids and comes complete with stereo bar and riser.

The Gefell SMS2000 series is also worth thinking about and there is another thread here where someone is designing remote cables for them.

I hope this helps.

Offline ianmacd

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Re: Which high-end cardioids?
« Reply #76 on: June 09, 2012, 05:12:39 PM »
Following up again, I picked up my new pair of factory-matched CCM 41V microphones Friday afternoon. They look impressive in their wooden boxes with certificate of matching, but It'll take more than that to convince my wife. I'd better come home with some pretty impressive recordings once I start using them.

Now I have to figure out exactly how I'm going to secrete these in some discreet headgear. They're small, but compared to my DPA 4060s, they're gargantuan, of course.

A new Marantz PMD-661 with Oade concert mod also arrived from the States yesterday, courtesy of visiting in-laws, and a Naiant Tinybox came in this afternoon via a separate mule from the U.S.

In short, I have a lot of new equipment to get to grips with and learn, but the first task is to figure out how exactly to wear those mics for stealth use.
Factory-matched Schoeps CCM 41V microphones -> Marantz PMD661 recorder with Oade Concert Mod
Factory-matched DPA 4060 microphones -> DPA MMA6000 amplifier -> Edirol R-09HR

Offline acidjack

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Re: Which high-end cardioids?
« Reply #77 on: June 09, 2012, 08:03:50 PM »
Following up again, I picked up my new pair of factory-matched CCM 41V microphones Friday afternoon. They look impressive in their wooden boxes with certificate of matching, but It'll take more than that to convince my wife. I'd better come home with some pretty impressive recordings once I start using them.

Now I have to figure out exactly how I'm going to secrete these in some discreet headgear. They're small, but compared to my DPA 4060s, they're gargantuan, of course.

A new Marantz PMD-661 with Oade concert mod also arrived from the States yesterday, courtesy of visiting in-laws, and a Naiant Tinybox came in this afternoon via a separate mule from the U.S.

In short, I have a lot of new equipment to get to grips with and learn, but the first task is to figure out how exactly to wear those mics for stealth use.

If you haven't PM'd hi and lo yet, now would be the time.  He had a very nice setup for 4Vs.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Which high-end cardioids?
« Reply #78 on: June 09, 2012, 10:36:11 PM »
Following up again, I picked up my new pair of factory-matched CCM 41V microphones Friday afternoon. They look impressive in their wooden boxes with certificate of matching, but It'll take more than that to convince my wife. I'd better come home with some pretty impressive recordings once I start using them.

Now I have to figure out exactly how I'm going to secrete these in some discreet headgear. They're small, but compared to my DPA 4060s, they're gargantuan, of course.

A new Marantz PMD-661 with Oade concert mod also arrived from the States yesterday, courtesy of visiting in-laws, and a Naiant Tinybox came in this afternoon via a separate mule from the U.S.

In short, I have a lot of new equipment to get to grips with and learn, but the first task is to figure out how exactly to wear those mics for stealth use.

I would think the regular CCM41 woukldve been easier to stea*&h, but the side address of the 41V may make it easier once you get a system down. And if you have to practice at home, do IT!!!!!!!!!!!
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Offline ianmacd

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Re: Which high-end cardioids?
« Reply #79 on: June 10, 2012, 07:44:24 AM »
If you haven't PM'd hi and lo yet, now would be the time.  He had a very nice setup for 4Vs.

I've just sent him a message. Thanks.
Factory-matched Schoeps CCM 41V microphones -> Marantz PMD661 recorder with Oade Concert Mod
Factory-matched DPA 4060 microphones -> DPA MMA6000 amplifier -> Edirol R-09HR

Offline ianmacd

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Re: Which high-end cardioids?
« Reply #80 on: June 10, 2012, 07:50:04 AM »
I would think the regular CCM41 woukldve been easier to stea*&h, but the side address of the 41V may make it easier once you get a system down.

It was hard to decide ahead of time whether I'd want to have the mics mounted on either side of a hat, pointing forwards, or at the front of a hat, lying on their side, angled towards one another. I eventually decided on the latter, which I hope I'm going to be able to make work and not regret.
Factory-matched Schoeps CCM 41V microphones -> Marantz PMD661 recorder with Oade Concert Mod
Factory-matched DPA 4060 microphones -> DPA MMA6000 amplifier -> Edirol R-09HR

Offline ianmacd

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Re: Which high-end cardioids?
« Reply #81 on: June 10, 2012, 08:59:48 AM »
It was hard to decide ahead of time whether I'd want to have the mics mounted on either side of a hat, pointing forwards, or at the front of a hat, lying on their side, angled towards one another. I eventually decided on the latter, which I hope I'm going to be able to make work and not regret.

Following up on myself here for a moment, I assume that you can actually use a CCM V on its side, rather than vertically. Or does that mess with its pattern too much? If so, the end-addressed CCM 41s would, indeed, be easier for my purposes.
Factory-matched Schoeps CCM 41V microphones -> Marantz PMD661 recorder with Oade Concert Mod
Factory-matched DPA 4060 microphones -> DPA MMA6000 amplifier -> Edirol R-09HR

Offline kubacheck

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Re: Which high-end cardioids?
« Reply #82 on: June 10, 2012, 11:06:55 AM »
I'm kinda curious how this is all gonna work out.....  when is the first time you'll be trying out the new setup??

Offline ianmacd

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Re: Which high-end cardioids?
« Reply #83 on: June 10, 2012, 11:44:49 AM »
I'm kinda curious how this is all gonna work out.....  when is the first time you'll be trying out the new setup??

If I'm ready in time, this coming Tuesday with Stone Roses in HMH, but I doubt I'll have be ready to roll by then, so that one may still have to go through the old rig.

Actually, I'd ideally run both rigs there, but the HMH can be tricky to get gear into and two rigs would be pushing my luck.
Factory-matched Schoeps CCM 41V microphones -> Marantz PMD661 recorder with Oade Concert Mod
Factory-matched DPA 4060 microphones -> DPA MMA6000 amplifier -> Edirol R-09HR

Online aaronji

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Re: Which high-end cardioids?
« Reply #84 on: June 10, 2012, 04:28:13 PM »
Following up on myself here for a moment, I assume that you can actually use a CCM V on its side, rather than vertically. Or does that mess with its pattern too much? If so, the end-addressed CCM 41s would, indeed, be easier for my purposes.

I think that getting the spacing and angle right might be more of a problem than messing with the pattern (although not really an issue, if my mental image is at all close, your head will block the rear lobes)...

In short, I have a lot of new equipment to get to grips with and learn, but the first task is to figure out how exactly to wear those mics for stealth use.

It's also worth considering trying to get some open permissions.  With the amount of cash you've already spent, the extra money for stand/bar/clips will be a drop in the bucket.  HMH is probably difficult, but some of the other venues might be fairly easy.  Melkweg, for example, allows open taping at the Jam in the Dam, so they are aware of taping and at least somewhat open to it.  I would guess that if you had the artist's approval, they would let you run a stand there...

Offline ianmacd

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Re: Which high-end cardioids?
« Reply #85 on: June 11, 2012, 02:11:43 AM »
Following up on myself here for a moment, I assume that you can actually use a CCM V on its side, rather than vertically. Or does that mess with its pattern too much? If so, the end-addressed CCM 41s would, indeed, be easier for my purposes.

I think that getting the spacing and angle right might be more of a problem than messing with the pattern (although not really an issue, if my mental image is at all close, your head will block the rear lobes)...

Well, I'm imagining having them at the front of the hat, so pretty much in a straight line, on their sides, pointing at each other.

This being my first experience of mics like these, I'm just not sure what happens to the pattern when you turn the mic through 90 degrees. Obviously, these are intended to be vertically mounted on a bar, and I'll be tipping them on their side. Your suspicion that the pattern won't be too negatively influenced is encouraging, but I'll feel better when more people weigh in to say the same.

But yeah, getting the angle right will be tricky, too; and learning the discipline to keep my head still. I don't currently hat-mount, so I'm free to move my head with no ill effects.

I don't imagine that the spacing will matter much, because I'm not going for much of a stereo image. I stack-tape, so any notion of stereo is pretty much out the window.

Quote
It's also worth considering trying to get some open permissions.  With the amount of cash you've already spent, the extra money for stand/bar/clips will be a drop in the bucket.  HMH is probably difficult, but some of the other venues might be fairly easy.  Melkweg, for example, allows open taping at the Jam in the Dam, so they are aware of taping and at least somewhat open to it.  I would guess that if you had the artist's approval, they would let you run a stand there...

I probably should start moving in that direction for some of the recordings, I make, yes.
Factory-matched Schoeps CCM 41V microphones -> Marantz PMD661 recorder with Oade Concert Mod
Factory-matched DPA 4060 microphones -> DPA MMA6000 amplifier -> Edirol R-09HR

Offline johnw

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Re: Which high-end cardioids?
« Reply #86 on: June 11, 2012, 08:37:11 AM »
There are a lot of people here (maybe most) using the 4v or 41v caps on their side in both open and less than open recording techniques. It sounds great although I've never done a direct comparison.
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Offline Todd R

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Re: Which high-end cardioids?
« Reply #87 on: June 11, 2012, 11:02:58 AM »
The main relevant question is whether the 4v's use a circular diaphragm, which I'm almost certain they do.  If so, then the diaphragm is symmetrical and whether the mics are oriented vertically or horizontally won't make a difference -- you can picture the circular diaphragm not changing in orientation at all as you move the mic from vertical to horizontal.

The microphone housing can perhaps have some very, very (very) slight effect leading to differences, but the housing is designed to be transparent to the sound getting to the capsule.  After all, you wouldn't want the housing having an effect on the incoming sound from different angles such that different positions in an orchestra you're recording have some kind of different timbre or mic sensitivity -- that's no way to capture a soundstage.

The main area where this would be a difference to worry about -- mics oriented horizontally vs vertically -- is for mics that use a rectangular diaphragm such as those made by Pearl and Milab.  The rectangular diaphragm is not symmetrical by design, and the resulting sound capture is meant to have different characteristics depending on how you orient the mic relative to the sound source.
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Offline ianmacd

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Re: Which high-end cardioids?
« Reply #88 on: June 12, 2012, 06:06:43 AM »
The main relevant question is whether the 4v's use a circular diaphragm, which I'm almost certain they do.  If so, then the diaphragm is symmetrical and whether the mics are oriented vertically or horizontally won't make a difference -- you can picture the circular diaphragm not changing in orientation at all as you move the mic from vertical to horizontal.

Ah, of course! Thanks for pointing that out.

Yes, if you hold the capsules up to the light, you can see the circular diaphragm behind the grille. As you rotate that through 90 degrees, the circle naturally remains a circle. I didn't want to assume that the microphone's pattern was symmetrical across more than one plane, but your explanation makes perfectly clear why that is, indeed, the case with the CCM 41V.
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Offline kingkita

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Re: Which high-end cardioids?
« Reply #89 on: June 12, 2012, 07:06:42 AM »
There are a lot of people here (maybe most) using the 4v or 41v caps on their side in both open and less than open recording techniques. It sounds great although I've never done a direct comparison.

I think Dr John Nailed This question!

 

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