Topic: Schoeps beginner?

[udovdh]

Hello,

For someone interested in using Schoeps (not me), what is the entry level setup for (stealth) concert taping with Schoeps?
What capsules would be nice, what A/D and/or pre to get with that without spending too much but still having a decently balanced setup?

Please post...

[Brian Skalinder]

Heh...Schoeps "without spending too much".  lol

For stealth, I'd have to say:

MK4 (cardioid) or MK41 (supercardioid)
custom actives + NBox or KCY cable + Sonosax SX-M2/LS2
Sony D100 / M1 or maybe even Edirol R1

[creekfreak]

schoeps and entry level are 2 words that don't go together too well.

I would recommend the mk41's first...mk4's second. Brian highlighted the rest of your options nicely.

[udovdh]

Thanks for the replies. Where can I find more info on the nbox (brand?) and active cables?

[F.O.Bean]

Thanks for the replies. Where can I find more info on the nbox (brand?) and active cables?

do a search here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?action=search

[udovdh]

Thanks for the replies. Where can I find more info on the nbox (brand?) and active cables?

do a search here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?action=search

Thanks, did search but the source for nbox remains a bit vague. Will relay the info to the `beginner` 

[Lengthwise]

yeah, I would stay start with the 4's, I see them as having more applications than the 41's.
I sold my 41's when phish stopped playing, just never really used them outside of an arena

[Brian Skalinder]

Where can I find more info on the nbox (brand?) and active cables?

NBox is a custom box with custom actives.  Contact Alex, he has the info you want.

[todd e]

Where can I find more info on the nbox (brand?) and active cables?

NBox is a custom box with custom actives.  Contact Alex, he has the info you want.

or you could get a vms02ib, it was on ebay last week (not mine..)

another active setup that uses stock kcy (active cable) without modifications and is self-powered.

[creekfreak]

interesting...I used my 41's way more than my 4's when I had both..something about the mk4 I never really liked...hard to put my finger on, made some good pulls with them, but always liked the 41's better....

[udovdh]

BTW: Nbox is the most compact solution for powering Schoeps?

[Craig T]

BTW: Nbox is the most compact solution for powering Schoeps?

You could use the CMBI battery powered mic body.  I don't think the active cables are compatible with the CMBI.
http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/cmbi.html

NBox gives you active cables, power, and preamp gain.

[Brian Skalinder]

BTW: Nbox is the most compact solution for powering Schoeps?

AFAIK, yes, though the Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 (i.e. Lemosax) isn't much bigger and isn't difficult to get into venues, past patdowns, IME.

[prof_peabody]

Check out this for a nice example (with pics) of a Schoeps starter rig:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=47950.0

[Cooker]

what about the CCM series? i don't know anything about schoeps pricing, and i realize you lose the possibility of changing capsules, but, isn't there a significant price difference between MK4s, KC5s, and CMC6s vs. a set of CCM4's? 

[Swanny]

BTW: Nbox is the most compact solution for powering Schoeps?

Yes it is, and I'll sell mine for $850 check the yardsale. CCM4's are still around $3000 and you cant change caps.

[kidtexas]

Yes it is, and I'll sell mine for $850 check the yardsale. CCM4's are still around $3000 and you cant change caps.

Buy his Nbox so he can buy my mics. 

[it-goes-to-eleven]

This thread might help a bit.. It at least summarizes the prices for various Schoeps active setups.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=46242.0

[tfs8271]

  here

So if I want to go with Schoeps (can't make up my mind on what I want Neumanns/Schoeps/MBHOs) I don't need a mic amplifier when I run with the Oade ACM 660, do I? It has a phantom +48V switch for condenser mics.

I will be taping 50% stealth and 50% open mic. I would like the ability to change caps in the future.

I was thinking of.....MK4>KCY 250>KS 5 IU>AK SU/2U>Oade ACM 660 (~$2100 for the Schoeps setup). Am I on the right track? Other Suggestions that are about the same price or slightly less?

[F.O.Bean]

microtech geffels and akg's

schoeps acpsules are a hefty chunk of change for a pair, bout a thousand bucks

you could get all 3 sets of caps for the 480's (hyper/cards/omni) and they would cost ya about 1900 for all 3 sets of caps and the 480 bodies(at least what ive spent on acquiring all of thayt) or you could easily get the mg 200 bodies and get the hypers/cards for about the same as the akg's, maybe a tad less by a couple hundred

[Brian Skalinder]

I was thinking of.....MK4>KCY 250>KS 5 IU>AK SU/2U>Oade ACM 660

The setup you listed runs the MK4 caps effectively directly into the 660 with a few cable connector changes.  However, the MK4 (or any of the MKx caps) require mic bodies (like the CMC6), or a custom box that replaces the mic bodies.  The two custom boxes I know of that replace the mic bodies are the Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 and NBox.

So, your choices are roughly:

[1]  MK4 / KC5 (active cables) / CMC6 > ACM 660 or other pre/ADC w/ phantom power
[2]  MK4 / KCY 250Ig > Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 > ACM660 or other ADC
[3]  MK4 / custom actives > NBox > ACM660 or other ADC

For ~$2,000, I'd go with something like [3].  Options [1-2] will push you over budget.  Other options to the ACM660 include the M-Audio MicroTracker 2496 (assuming M-Audio works out the bugs, which I suspect they will), or Sony M1 or D100.  For a few bucks more, I personally prefer the Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 over the NBox.  But it also costs ~$400+ more new.  The NBox will save you some cash if bought new, and much more if bought used.

[tfs8271]

Ok maybe I'm alittle confused the CMC6 has XLR 3-pin male connection? If I was to buy a used set
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=46355.0
I would need to add the active cable for stealthing and without if I wanted for a tripod stand recording (unless I went with the 5 meter active. Wow am I starting to understand this stuff...like those actives cost a lot of $$$$

Any one know of a good connector or adaptor that is right angle XLR 3-pin Male  to Female so my 660 can sit flat in my fanny pack while adjusting the levels? I don't want the weight resting on the cables..that would be bad

[Brian Skalinder]

Ok maybe I'm alittle confused the CMC6 has XLR 3-pin male connection?

Yes.  Most mic bodies have a male 3-pin XLR connector into which one plugs the female 3-pin XLR from the mic cables.  Exceptions to this rule are some of the mini mics that run on bias power, not phantom power.  They usually use an 1/8" mini stereo connector.

If I was to buy a used set
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=46355.0
I would need to add the active cable for stealthing and without if I wanted for a tripod stand recording (unless I went with the 5 meter active.

For stealthing, yes, you'd need the KC5 active cables.  For open taping, you could run the MK4 / CMC6 in shockmounts, on a stereo or T-bar, on a stand, with standard mic cables.

like those actives cost a lot of $$$$

Everything Schoeps is expensive, more so now that the exchange rate stinks.

Any one know of a good connector or adaptor that is right angle XLR 3-pin Male  to Female

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=2463.0

[tfs8271]

Brian
Thanks
+T for you when I get there...like you need one you've been around here a while I see

[noam]

I am in the process of ordering this rig: mk4's> KCY 250/01> VST 62 IUg  Phantom-powered Stereo Amplifier> a stereo 1/8" unbalanced phone  jack> unbalanced inputs of HiMD line in. Anyone has experience with this combination? I need it for stealthing and will use the MK4's in croakies (yes, in croakies.)

(The HiMD line in works the same as the D7 or D8 line in, that is, I get good signal with a 9v battery box into it, unlike the M1, which doesn't give adequate signal with a 9v battery box. I currently use MM Sennheiser cardioids or omnis>SP-SPSB-1>D7/D8/HiMD line in) - Noam

[Brian Skalinder]

I am in the process of ordering this rig: mk4's> KCY 250/01> VST 62 IUg  Phantom-powered Stereo Amplifier> a stereo 1/8" unbalanced phone  jack> unbalanced inputs of HiMD line in.

I believe the VST 62IUg requires phantom power to operate.  In your lineage above, there is no phantom power source.

[Brian Skalinder]

Okay, it seems there's some misunderstanding or confusion around what Schoeps gear is required for making a functional rig.  In the hopes of clarifying, these are the necessary components in order to run Schoeps mics:

[1] mic caps
The mic caps, designated MKx, provide different pickup patterns.  MK4 = cardioid, MK4V = vertically oriented cardioid, MK41 = supercardioid, MK21 = subcardioid, etc.

[2] active cables ¹
Active cables provide the ability to run the mic caps [1] remotely from the mic bodies [3].  The active cables chosen - from the Schoeps list - will depend on the mic bodies [2] used.

[3] mic bodies (aka mic amplifiers)
Mic bodies amplify the signal from the mic caps [1] and pass the signal along to the next device in the chain.  Mic bodies require power to function, either <a> phantom power from an external phantom power supply (like the Denecked PS-2 or most microphone preamps), or <b> an internal power supply, i.e. battery.  Mic bodies - one of those listed at Schoeps - are required, unless using custom gear containing their equivalent, like the NBox or Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 preamps.  (If someone knows of an alternative solution to the Schoeps mic bodies and NBox / SX-M2/LS2, please let us all know).

¹Note:  active cables are NOT required in all cases.  For example, one could attach the MKx caps directly to the CMC6 mic bodies, without the active cables.  But this thread seems focused on active cable solutions, so...I've included them.

Edit to add...

After [1-3] above, the other components of gear listed in the Where To Begin forum's Start Here! thread are still required:

[2]  Mic Power (unless using an internally powered Schoeps mic body)
[3]  Gain
[4]  Analog-to-Digital Converters (ADC)
[5]  Storage Devices

[noam]

Mic bodies amplify the signal from the mic caps [1] and pass the signal along to the next device in the chain.  Mic bodies require power to function, either <a> phantom power from an external phantom power supply (like the Denecked PS-2 or most microphone preamps), or <b> an internal power supply, i.e. battery.  Mic bodies - one of those listed at Schoeps - are required, unless using custom gear containing their equivalent, like the NBox or Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 preamps.  (If someone knows of an alternative solution to the Schoeps mic bodies and NBox / SX-M2/LS2, please let us all know).

Does using the Scoeps VMS 5 U Microphone Preamplifier require also using the microphone bodies in the modular line? Is this lineage possible: MK4's>KCY 250/01>VMS 5 U Microphone Preamplifier>stereo 1/8" unbalanced phone  jack> unbalanced inputs of HiMD line in?

http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/specs-vms5.html

Noam

[Brian Skalinder]

Does using the Scoeps VMS 5 U Microphone Preamplifier require also using the microphone bodies in the modular line? Is this lineage possible: MK4's>KCY 250/01>VMS 5 U Microphone Preamplifier>stereo 1/8" unbalanced phone  jack> unbalanced inputs of HiMD line in?

http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/specs-vms5.html

Noam

The VMS5U preamp allows running of mics via the standard XLR inputs, i.e. mics > XLR mic cables > VMS5U.  It also allows for use of the KCY active cable to run MKx > KCY 250/N Ig > VMS5U (where N is the cable length in meters).  However, based on the pics, the only outputs available are 2 x XLR.  So, you'd have to get a 2 x XLR > 1/8" stereo adapter.

Personally, I like the Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 better.  Others prefer the NBox, in part because it's less expensive but still very functional and sounds very good.  Both the Sax and NBox will allow you to run without the 2 x XLR > 1/8" stereo adapter:

MKx > KCY 250/N Ig > Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 1/8" stereo output > ADC / recorder
MKx > custom actives > NBox 1/8" stereo output > ADC / recorder

Have you taped before?  If not, have you considered (or shall I say:  you should consider) a less expensive setup to determine first whether it's something about which you're serious?

[noam]

MKx > KCY 250/N Ig > Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 1/8" stereo output > ADC / recorder
MKx > custom actives > NBox 1/8" stereo output > ADC / recorder

The VMS 5 U Microphone Preamplifier is 6-2/3" × 2-1/3" ×6-3/4", still doable for stealthing... What is the size of the Sonosax and of the NBox?

Have you taped before?  If not, have you considered (or shall I say:  you should consider) a less expensive setup to determine first whether it's something about which you're serious?

See my original question you had responded to. I have taped dozens of concerts using MM Sennheiser cardioids or omnis>SP-SPSB-1>D7/D8/HiMD line in, and am looking to upgrade - Noam

[Brian Skalinder]

The VMS 5 U Microphone Preamplifier is 6-2/3" × 2-1/3" ×6-3/4", still doable for stealthing... What is the size of the Sonosax and of the NBox?

http://www.sonosax.ch/SXM2/sxm2.html

SX-M2/LS2 has the same dimensions as the SX-M2, the /LS2 designation simply adds a factory mod to the innards to replace the mic bodies and changes the input connectors from 2 x XLR to 2 x lemo + 1 5-pin binder (for the KCY cable).  NBox is custom, and I don't know of any officially published specs.  Use the Search feature to find some comparison pics of the Sax and NBox in the Rig Pics forum for reference.

See my original question you had responded to. I have taped dozens of concerts using MM Sennheiser cardioids or omnis>SP-SPSB-1>D7/D8/HiMD line in, and am looking to upgrade - Noam

Whoops!  Sorry about that - I either forgot about it or missed it in my reading of the post.

[Swanny]

picture of my nbox. http://swanny.20m.com/nbox.htm It sounds excellent, like a VMS without all the extra stuff.

[noam]

picture of my nbox. http://swanny.20m.com/nbox.htm It sounds excellent, like a VMS without all the extra stuff.

Looks nice. Did you actually compare it to the sound of the VMS? Do you unbalance the outputs into an 1/8" jack? Where do you order it, how long do the batteries last and what size is it? - thanks, Noam

[Brian Skalinder]

Noam - I have a head-to-head comp somewhere of the NBox v. SX-M2/LS2.  I can dig it up and re-seed/FTP/burn if you want to hear it.

[Swanny]

picture of my nbox. http://swanny.20m.com/nbox.htm It sounds excellent, like a VMS without all the extra stuff.

Looks nice. Did you actually compare it to the sound of the VMS? Do you unbalance the outputs into an 1/8" jack? Where do you order it, how long do the batteries last and what size is it? - thanks, Noam

I haven't heard a direct comp. I have heard alot of VMS tapes though. Most of the parts are borrowed from a VMS from what I understand. Just less wiring and knobs to cause noise. You can order a new one from Alex. I do have my used one up for sale too. I made rca > xlr cable for mine since I run it into the AD1000, but you can find rca > mini cable if you run into an M1/D100

[noam]

How about the Sound Devices MixPre ($665)? (I mean MK4's>KCY 250/01>MixPre>stereo 1/8" unbalanced phone  jack> unbalanced inputs of HiMD line in)


Is there ANY portable mic preamp with phantom power balanced in and unbalanced outputs (other than CS 2496, because I need ANALOG signal out; digital signal into the HiMD line in will get me into trouble with the SONY copyright management) - Noam

[Brian Skalinder]

How about the Sound Devices MixPre ($665)? (I mean MK4's>KCY 250/01>MixPre>stereo 1/8" unbalanced phone  jack> unbalanced inputs of HiMD line in)

Nope.  No mic bodies (or their equivalent) in that lineage.  Remember:  mic bodies or their equivalent are *required*.

Is there ANY portable mic preamp with phantom power balanced in and unbalanced outputs (other than CS 2496, because I need ANALOG signal out; digital signal into the HiMD line in will get me into trouble with the SONY copyright management) - Noam

The NBox has unbalanced (I believe) outputs in the form of RCAs.  The SX-M2/LS2 has both balanced (XLR) and unbalanced (1/8" mini) outputs.  Neither offers phantom power.  But you don't need phantom power in this setup, unless you plan on powering a different pair of mics than the Schoeps actives.

[noam]

  Neither offers phantom power. 

Both I believe offer phantom power. The sonosax web site has SX-M2 as having phantom power.

But you don't need phantom power in this setup, unless you plan on powering a different pair of mics than the Schoeps actives. 

Now I am totally confused. The Schoeps do not need phantom power? - Noam
 

[it-goes-to-eleven]

They both supply phantom to the capsules.

[Brian Skalinder]

Now I am totally confused. The Schoeps do not need phantom power?

It's confusing, and I should clarify.  Think of it this way...there are two delivery mechanisms for phantom power:

preamp > mic bodies > KC5 cables > MKx caps
preamp / mic body equivalent > KCY cables > MKx caps

The CMC6 bodies require phantom power from an external device, i.e. preamp a la the VMS, stock SX-M2, Sound Devices MixPre, etc.  But the SX-M2/LS2¹ and NBox have the equivalent of the CMC6 bodies *inside* the preamp, so they effectively provide phantom to the CMC6 equivalent circuitry internally.  All that's left to do is hook up the active cables (KCY for the /LS2, custom for the NBox) to provide connectivity between the MKx caps and the mic body equivalent inside the preamp.

¹ The /LS2 modification removes the XLR connectors and replaces them with 2 x lemo connectors and 1 x 5-pin binder for the KCY cables.  Hence, the /LS2 is incapable of providing standard phantom power to a pair of mic bodies, but rather can only deliver power to the mic caps directly.

I think the VMS is the only preamp that will support both a body and body-less setup with the same preamp:

MK4 > KC5 > CMC6 bodies > VMS via the XLR connectors, or
MK4 > KCY > VMS via the 5-pin binder connector

[noam]

Now I am totally confused. The Schoeps do not need phantom power?

It's confusing, and I should clarify.  Think of it this way...there are two delivery mechanisms for phantom power:

preamp > mic bodies > KC5 cables > MKx caps
preamp / mic body equivalent > KCY cables > MKx caps

The CMC6 bodies require phantom power from an external device, i.e. preamp a la the VMS, stock SX-M2, Sound Devices MixPre, etc.  But the SX-M2/LS2¹ and NBox have the equivalent of the CMC6 bodies *inside* the preamp, so they effectively provide phantom to the CMC6 equivalent circuitry internally.  All that's left to do is hook up the active cables (KCY for the /LS2, custom for the NBox) to provide connectivity between the MKx caps and the mic body equivalent inside the preamp.

¹ The /LS2 modification removes the XLR connectors and replaces them with 2 x lemo connectors and 1 x 5-pin binder for the KCY cables.  Hence, the /LS2 is incapable of providing standard phantom power to a pair of mic bodies, but rather can only deliver power to the mic caps directly.

I think the VMS is the only preamp that will support both a body and body-less setup with the same preamp:

MK4 > KC5 > CMC6 bodies > VMS via the XLR connectors, or
MK4 > KCY > VMS via the 5-pin binder connector

Wow, thanks for clarifying that! Noam

[noam]

Anyone knows a dealer that carries the Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 (the lemo mod, not the standard one) in stock, as opposed to a special order (special orders are not covered by the regular return policy)? - Noam

[Brian Skalinder]

Anyone knows a dealer that carries the Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 (the lemo mod, not the standard one) in stock, as opposed to a special order (special orders are not covered by the regular return policy)? - Noam

I know of none.  At the time I got mine, the only retailer I found who knew precisely what I was talking about re the factory mod /LS2:  Posthorn.  I know at least one other TSer who got his from Cascade Media.  I doubt anyone stocks them since there isn't a huge demand.  Sonosax occasionally has used gear on their site (though a phone call's probably best, don't know how often they update their site).  You may find a used / demo one there.  Or perhaps they'd mod a used unit for you.

[noam]

I cannot buy a $1200 item that is not covered by a return policy.

 I am thinking of an alternative.

Does anyone tape Schoeps CCM4> DENECKE DEN-PS2-MINI – (WITH 1/8” unbalanced MINI PLUG OUTPUT)> line in.

 I need to know how hot the signal is. HiMD line in behaves like D7 or D8 line-in. - Noam

[sygdwm]

am i the only one who think shwepz>himd is like having bike tires on a porsche? not hating, just curious.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

The PS2 provides no gain.

I usually run somewhere between 13 and 55 dB of gain with my Schoeps.

[noam]

am i the only one who think shwepz>himd is like having bike tires on a porsche? not hating, just curious.

Maybe on paper, but the HiMD preamp is a porsche. There is a thread about it here and some professor actually took some measures and compared it to the 722 - I did not see any advantage to the 722. There is a link in the thread to sound files and signal waves - Noam

[Brian Skalinder]

I cannot buy a $1200 item that is not covered by a return policy.

Have you contacted Posthorn or Cascade Media to see if they do not allow returns on special orders?  I didn't find anything indicating that's the case on either website.  Might be worth calling to find out.

[Brian Skalinder]

Maybe on paper, but the HiMD preamp is a porsche. There is a thread about it here and some professor actually took some measures and compared it to the 722 - I did not see any advantage to the 722. There is a link in the thread to sound files and signal waves - Noam

This post?  I haven't watched the clip, but FWIW low noise does not necessarily equate to high quality.  In other words, I could have the lowest self-noise preamp in the world, but it still might sound like moose flop.

Edit to add:  I just watched / listened to the MOV and IMO it's absolutely no contest between the 722 and HiMD.  However, if we're talking strictly value (price/performance), then I can understand why one would go for the HiMD.  But in terms of high performance, it's no contest.  Of course, different brains may intepret the comp differently as listened through different ears using different playback systems.

[sygdwm]

am i the only one who think shwepz>himd is like having bike tires on a porsche? not hating, just curious.

Maybe on paper, but the HiMD preamp is a porsche. There is a thread about it here and some professor actually took some measures and compared it to the 722 - I did not see any advantage to the 722. There is a link in the thread to sound files and signal waves - Noam

the 722 supports higher bit depth/sampling rate. that is a clear advantage.

[noam]

I cannot buy a $1200 item that is not covered by a return policy.

Have you contacted Posthorn or Cascade Media to see if they do not allow returns on special orders?  I didn't find anything indicating that's the case on either website.  Might be worth calling to find out.

Thanks, that's an idea; but everyone is away at the AES exhibition in NY right now. Maybe I should go check this exhibition myself - Noam

[noam]

am i the only one who think shwepz>himd is like having bike tires on a porsche?

I've been discussing this with a friend: what other options do I really have for stealthing? The 722 is a solid metal brick, it weighs a ton and may get too hot if worn in a tight brace. - Noam

[Brian Skalinder]

am i the only one who think shwepz>himd is like having bike tires on a porsche? not hating, just curious.

Considering the mics have the biggest impact on the quality of our recordings, and if one has a limited budget (though it can't be too limited, else no Schoeps), I think Schoeps > preamp > HiMD is a reasonable way to go for stealth.  The mics are excellent.  Using a quality preamp for gain will minimize the impact from the HiMD's analog stage.  Then you've got the HiMD ADC recording to 16/44 WAV.  I haven't heard a direct comparison of HiMD ADC v. other portable, stealthable recorders (M1/D100 v. JB3), but even if it's junky - while it may have less detail and soundstaging and such relative to other in-recorder ADCs, it's probably not going to decimate the sound.   And...once more fundss are available (if unhappy with the HiMD ADC), one can always replace it with a better ADC/recorder down the road, e.g. M1/D100, or the MT2496 if it works out.  So, in my mind:  nothing at all wrong with Schoeps > preamp > HiMD for stealth.

I cannot buy a $1200 item that is not covered by a return policy.

Have you contacted Posthorn or Cascade Media to see if they do not allow returns on special orders?  I didn't find anything indicating that's the case on either website.  Might be worth calling to find out.

Thanks, that's an idea; but everyone is away at the AES exhibition in NY right now. Maybe I should go check this exhibition myself - Noam

Do you need the gear *immediately*?  If so, you're in trouble with the /LS2, anyway, since it'll take some time to [1] do the factory mod if they don't have any sitting around, and [2] get it from Europe.  If not, just wait til AES is over.

I've been discussing this with a friend: what other options do I really have for stealthing? The 722 is a solid metal brick, it weighs a ton and may get too hot if worn in a tight brace. - Noam

Rather than hash through every flavor of every potential option, let's go back and start at the beginning:  what's your budget?

[noam]

Rather than hash through every flavor of every potential option, let's go back and start at the beginning:  what's your budget?

My budget is a moving target - as I get seduced by better options, I am willing to shed more $$$. I thought $3200 was my budget. I think I am certain I won't spend $6000 on the SONOSAX  MINIR82, but I will spend in excess of $3200 for a proven and tried perfect solution for stealthing with MK4 capsules -Noam

 

[Brian Skalinder]

My budget is a moving target - as I get seduced by better options, I am willing to shed more $$$. I thought $3200 was my budget. I think I am certain I won't spend $6000 on the SONOSAX  MINIR82, but I will spend in excess of $3200 for a proven and tried perfect solution for stealthing with MK4 capsules -Noam

If you want 100% tried and true, then:

MK4 > custom actives > NBox > M1/D100
MK4 > KCY > SX-M2/LS2 > M1/D100

Or maybe throw a modSBM-1 between the pre and deck, though I don't think it adds *that* much to the sound.

[noam]

 Here is where things stand right now. I want to make the order with Frank from Cascademedia. He spoke with Schoeps at Redding Audio and came up with the following problems: the Schoeps active cables end with a 5 pin Binder miniature plug, and cannot fit into the lemo connection on the Sonosax. Additionally, there is a power problem. They really work on 60V, not 48v - read below:

"1. From what we see, there is no way to get around a custom cable for input
to the LEMOs on the Sonasax.  This is likely to be in the $500 range

2. Even if we do get you this type of cable built, it is going to reduce the
specs of the Schoeps microphones because you will only be supplying 48 volts
and not 60 volts which the capsules require.    You ultimately will lose
sensitivity and will add more noise because you will have to crank up the
Sonasax.   
 ...
Ultimately, however, I think you may want to consider a different preamp. "

Schoeps will send me MK-4 capsules, to see if they fit in croakies, because this is absolutely the only way I can use them (no Hat!). If they fit, I'll see. I alerted Frank to this thread - he feels the MK4 > KCY > SX-M2/LS2 will not work, neither does Scott from Schoeps, but Frank will research it further - Noam

[sygdwm]

i swear Nick Graham and others successfully run this combo, not sure how they are wired. ive never seen it personally.

[Brian Skalinder]

He spoke with Schoeps at Redding Audio and came up with the following problems: the Schoeps active cables end with a 5 pin Binder miniature plug, and cannot fit into the lemo connection on the Sonosax.

This is false.  There are two factory mods offered by Sonosax:

• SX-M2/LS - this mod includes only lemo connectors, and true:  the 5-pin binder mini plug will not fit.
• SX-M2/LS2 - this mod includes the lemo connectors AND a 5-pin binder mini female plug.  It *will* fit the KCY cables, I've used it myself.

.

2. Even if we do get you this type of cable built, it is going to reduce the specs of the Schoeps microphones because you will only be supplying 48 volts and not 60 volts which the capsules require.    You ultimately will lose sensitivity and will add more noise because you will have to crank up the Sonasax.

You should to have a chat with the folks at Sonosax, or Jerry Bruck at Posthorn.  I don't know the specs of the SX-M2/LS2.  I do know that Sonosax replaces the mic body circuitry with components they add inside the SX-M2/LS2.  I bet Redding / Schoeps are unaware of this and are thinking it's merely a connector swap:  XLR for lemo and/or 5-pin binder.  There's more to it than a simple connector swap, as I understand it.  Jerry Bruck at Posthorn's probably the best guy to go to - there's sometimes a language barrier with the folks at Sax, and they're not great about returning phone calls / emails.  But Jerry knows his shit and can sort this out.

I'll see. I alerted Frank to this thread - he feels the MK4 > KCY > SX-M2/LS2 will not work, neither does Scott from Schoeps, but Frank will research it further

It works.  I've used that exact gear combo before.  Now, whether the /LS2 is sending 48v or 60v to the Schoeps caps, I do not know - I never tested for specs when I had my /LS2.  I do know, however, that the combo worked quite well.  I don't feel like I ever had to crank the gain on the Sax- usually ran between 20-30 dB for rock concerts, which is about what I've run for most mic > preamp combos. 

Bottom line:  call Jerry Bruck and/or the folks at Sonosax to sort it out, I suspect the folks at Redding Audio and Schoeps don't have all the information about the /LS and /LS2 factory mods.

Edit to add:  This is one of the reasons I originally went with Jerry Bruck and Posthorn for my purchase, even though his prices were slightly higher - no one else had any clue what I was asking about.

[mmedley.]

First time I've ever heard of Schoeps requiring 60V.

I've used the Sonosax with the 4V's, but not actives. The Sonosax provides ample power to Schoeps via actives or not. Promise.

Brian is right.

[Josephine]

Anyone having a hard time envisioning a Schoeps cap fitting inside a croakie besides me?  I don't think it will work.

[KingReptile]

Anyone having a hard time envisioning a Schoeps cap fitting inside a croakie besides me?  I don't think it will work.

Through a croakie mounted on sunglasses on top of your head..It has been done with other cardiod mics..

[mmedley.]

Anyone having a hard time envisioning a Schoeps cap fitting inside a croakie besides me?  I don't think it will work.

Yeah, I was thinking that too. Even if it does, underpowering would be the least of my worries I would think.

Doesn't sound like a very good idea to me. Go with a setup in your lapels or sleeves or something? Are you sure you know the diameter of the Schoeps caps? They are about the diameter of a US nickel.

T's all around.

[Josephine]

Schoeps cap = about the circumference of a nickel. 
If you can pack a bunch of nickels inside a croakie, then I guess it might work.

[mmedley.]

Schoeps cap = about the circumference of a nickel. 
If you can pack a bunch of nickels inside a croakie, then I guess it might work.

That too. My Math major really shining there.

[mmedley.]

Is this just for actives or for the CMC6 bodies as well?

[mmedley.]

Right. I see what you are saying. Thanks!

I was just wondering if the circuitry was the exact same for the Nbox as the CMC6 bodies.

[shaggy]

You cannot compare the two.  The CMCs are mic bodies and do not output a line level signal, the Nbox does (kinda like a mic bodies/pre combo). I have heard from others that the Nbox is essentially a vms02ib innards in a project box.   

Brian Skilander did a comp of thiis using mk41 caps.  cmc641>Sonosax SX-M2 vs mk41>Nbox  both into a D100.  And there is a clear sonic difference meaning a different character to the sound from each of the set ups, not that one sounds better than the other (as this is always subjective).

[Brian Skalinder]

Brian Skilander did a comp of thiis using mk41 caps.  cmc641>Sonosax SX-M2 vs mk41>Nbox  both into a D100.

Actually, it was MK41 > KCY > SX-M2/LS2 v. MK41 > NBox.

And there is a clear sonic difference meaning a different character to the sound from each of the set ups, not that one sounds better than the other (as this is always subjective).

Definitely a difference.  Two good options - nice to have a choice!  FWIW, I'm working on getting the comp hosted at TS so I don't have to re-seed/host/send discs to those interested.  Anyone wishing to hear the comp, stand by...

[Brian Skalinder]

Anyone wants to hear the SX-M2/LS2 v. NBox comp, I'm temporarily hosting via FTP on my home machine until I get it on TS:

thirdofthree.dyndns.org
port 21
l:  gearcomp
p:  8bmb^fs

Two slots available, total of about 50 KB/s.  It's small, though - only ~39MB.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Right. I see what you are saying. Thanks!

I was just wondering if the circuitry was the exact same for the Nbox as the CMC6 bodies.

Not a chance.

The electronics portion of the nbox is just too small.  The cmc6 body is jampacked:

[mmedley.]

Cool. I had a few beers last night and managed to confuse myself. 

I never knew that Schoeps required 60V and was wondering if it was just something special for actives or not. Thanks for all the claification. I love learning new stuff and sorry for the confusion. Shouldn't have written 'exact' same. I knew better than that.

[noam]

I am trying to get some clarifications from Sonosax about the SX-M2/LS. I contacted Susan Sax. She had responded pretty quickly to a previous inquiry, but I’m still waiting for technical clarifications. Short of that, here are some comments from a source who gave me permission to post this, without identifying the source:
Below are xxxx’s comments followed by info on the LS from the Sonosax website.
 If you just buy KC cables and change the plug it would not have best possible specifications. The KC works with 6.2 volts and the FET's Q-point is adjusted to that voltage. With 10V the FET needs to be adjusted otherwise. ALSO, you need to know that a polarization voltage of only 48V instead of our standard 60V leads to a slightly reduced microphone sensitivity.
THIS WAS TAKEN OFF OF THE SONOSAX WEBSITE -- There is no mention of a the LS2 with a 5-pin Binder. You need to contact Sonosax to confirm the
(1) There is a 5-pin Binder on the LS2 and (2) the leads correspond to Schoeps cable wiring of a a 5-pin Binder with a Schoeps KCY-- cable and
(3) the voltage specs on each pin.
16. SPECIAL VERSIONS
   •    SX-M2/LS

Designed  for use by sound engineers, working frequently with the same pair  of condenser or electret microphones, this version provides the  same high quality amplification and features as the SX-M2.
The  difference between the two versions is that the SX-M2/LS allows  the user to directly connect the capsules without the microphone  body thus creating a significant diminution of power consumption.

Technical  changes

To  be able to place the electronics of the microphone body inside  the SX-M2/LS, LEMO connectors are used instead of the NEUTRIK  XLR for the microphone inputs.

LEMO  in L: Shield = Gnd, Pin 1 = +10V, 2 = +48V, 3 = signal in

LEMO  in R: Shield = Gnd, Pin 1 = +10V, 2 = +48V, 3 = signal in

The  SX-M2/LS can be used for all condenser or electret microphones  having the possibility of changing the capsules on the microphone  body, such as: Colette series of Schoeps, Blue Line of Sanken,  or the similar line of Neumann.

It  is important for these kind of microphones to use a good quality  active cable. When buying the cable from a microphone manufacturer,  do inform them that the amplification electronics often used in  the cables is not required.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for taking the time to check my idea of CCM4>PS2>line in. He checked it for me and apparently the PS2 powers the CCM4s just fine and there is more than enough gain in the mindisc line preamp to make a proper recording. I decided against it for 2 reason: the CCM4 capsules are longer than the MK4 capsules, and also because the CCM4 comes in a 5m cord. I will have to get one a 3-4feet one. That would be a special order, and I will never be able to sell a CCM4 with a 3-4 feet cord.

Noam

[Ed.]

if you get the mk4 with active cables, those are going to be a lot longer than 3-4 feet too.  just letting ya know.

[noam]

if you get the mk4 with active cables, those are going to be a lot longer than 3-4 feet too.  just letting ya know.

I was thinking stock KCY>special order 3 feet KS. The KS is less than $100 - Noam

[Ed.]

whats ks?

and wouldn't you have about 3m of kcy + 3' of ks...which to me seems a lot more than just 3m of cable on the ccm4?

[Brian Skalinder]

I am trying to get some clarifications from Sonosax about the SX-M2/LS.

I've dropped a direct line to Sonosax regarding the factory mod in question, the /LS2 (not the straight /LS mod).  Haven't heard back yet.

If you just buy KC cables and change the plug it would not have best possible specifications. The KC works with 6.2 volts and the FET's Q-point is adjusted to that voltage. With 10V the FET needs to be adjusted otherwise. ALSO, you need to know that a polarization voltage of only 48V instead of our standard 60V leads to a slightly reduced microphone sensitivity.

You would not use a stock KC cable and swap the connector.  Schoeps makes the KCY cable specifically for use with the VMS preamp, which also replaces the CMC6 mic bodies a la the /LS2.

You need to contact Sonosax to confirm the
(1) There is a 5-pin Binder on the LS2 and
(2) the leads correspond to Schoeps cable wiring of a a 5-pin Binder with a Schoeps KCY-- cable and

Confirmed.  I've used this gear myself plenty of times.

(3) the voltage specs on each pin.

This is the confirmation I'm waiting on from Sonosax directly.  I just spoke with Jerry Bruck at Posthorn and while he didn't have specs about whether or not the /LS2 5-pin binder connection provides 60v to the caps, he indicated that the /LS2 mod was "approved" by Schoeps.  That leads me to believe that it delivers 60v, else Schoeps wouldn't have approved it.  Given that Jerry's the only one I've ever spoken with who seems to know anything about the /LS2 mod - and is also a long-time Schoeps dealer and knows their product line intimately - I'm inclined to believe him.

The Schoeps cables are also available in custom lengths.

Bah, it's a breeze - even for a non-diehard stealther like me who hasn't perfected stealthing like the diehard old-timers.  Beats having 2 cables to flop around. 

[noam]

whats ks?

and wouldn't you have about 3m of kcy + 3' of ks...which to me seems a lot more than just 3m of cable on the ccm4?

Stock Schoeps KCY 250/01 is 25 cm + 10 cm. That's about a foot. KS is the  Schoeps extension cable - Noam

[Brian Skalinder]

Stock Schoeps KCY 250/01 is 25 cm + 10 cm. That's about a foot. KS is the  Schoeps extension cable - Noam

It'll be cheaper to buy a custom-length KCY cable, rather than the KCY + KS extension.

[noam]

Stock Schoeps KCY 250/01 is 25 cm + 10 cm. That's about a foot. KS is the  Schoeps extension cable - Noam

It'll be cheaper to buy a custom-length KCY cable, rather than the KCY + KS extension.

That was my original plan. However, there is no difference in price, OR, the 3 feet KS is cheaper (Schoeps weren't sure.) I prefer to have the expensive KCY as a stock item and the cheap KS as a special order - Noam

[Brian Skalinder]

That was my original plan. However, there is no difference in price, OR, the 3 feet KS is cheaper (Schoeps weren't sure.) I prefer to have the expensive KCY as a stock item and the cheap KS as a special order - Noam

Well, looks like both will work, so whichever you prefer - go for it. 

[Rick]

A little late to the thread… but here's my two cents…

I've owned both the Nbox and SX-M2/LS2 and I must say I like the SX-M2/LS2 better. In fact I shouldn't have sold it . Anyways, I think the SX-M2/LS2 is more flexible with the variable gain, different outputs, lighter and I liked that fact there was a real company behind the unit. I thought it sounded a little better too. That being said, the Nbox is great! Especially, if you want to get on the Schoeps Team for less then $2000 (if everything is bought used). I mean Schoeps Mics and Pre-Amp for $2000! The MK4 with bodies almost cost that much alone and no pre-amp! And the Nbox sounds pretty darn good too

Here's what I've done with the Nbox straight into a D100… It sounds sweet!
http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=11139

[Brian Skalinder]

nbox all the way.  best stealthing setup there is.

Lemosax all the way.  Best stealthing setup there is. 

[Josephine]

nbox all the way.  best stealthing setup there is.

Lemosax all the way.  Best stealthing setup there is. 

nbox . . . .

[Brian Skalinder]

nbox all the way.  best stealthing setup there is.

Lemosax all the way.  Best stealthing setup there is. 

nbox . . . .

lol  I have a feeling I'm gonna get outnumbered on this one...   

[Josephine]

 

[Brian Skalinder]

lol  I have a feeling I'm gonna get outnumbered on this one...   

But just b/c I'm outnumbered, doesn't mean I'm not right!   

[sygdwm]

lol  I have a feeling I'm gonna get outnumbered on this one...   

But just b/c I'm outnumbered, doesn't mean I'm not right!   

It's not a contest or competition, guys.

 

[prof_peabody]

lol  I have a feeling I'm gonna get outnumbered on this one...   

But just b/c I'm outnumbered, doesn't mean I'm not right!   

Do you quote yourself often?

[Brian Skalinder]

Do you quote yourself often?

Nope.

[Brian Skalinder]

the much touted "comparison" mentioned on this thread of the nbox vs. lemosax is a "skewed" comparison for a couple reasons
-it used the mk41 caps which are too bright for the nbox (its designed for the darker MK4 cap...the MK41)
-the relatively muddy sonosax NEEDS a brighter cap like the MK41 to make it sound decent
-brian cant honestly state with certainty which source is which anyway

Didn't know the NBox was designed for the MK4 - interesting info.  FWIW, I *do* know which is which - the two sources are very easy to distinguish.  I just temporarily misplaced the "key" at one point and Boogie's needling me for it (as he should!).

IMO, most people would have exactly the OPPOSITE opinion if that compare used the more common MK4 caps instead of the MK41...either way the rmod beats them both with any cap

Anyone willing and able to produce an MK4 > Lemosax/NBox comparison?  I'd love to hear it.  Perhaps it'll change my opinion on the NBox.

At any rate, a great wrap-up, and he makes perhaps the most important point in the thread:

you can make sick tapes with any of these setups

[shaggy]

Boogie!

What about this bit about the vms02ib innards in the Nbox.  Is this just rumor or fact?

ANDY

[noam]

From Sonosax:

Dear Mr xxxx,

The SX-M2/LS which is no longer available is replaced by the  SX-M2/LS2.

The SX-M2 LS/2 provides with both a 5 pin Binder connector for the Schoeps KCY active cable and two 3 pin Lemo's.
The SX-M2/LS2 supply 48V for the Schoeps capsule.
The voltage difference between the 60V and the 48V is not an issue.
The 12V difference are almost negligible as it affect the max acoustic SPL ( Sound Pressure Level ) accepted at the capsule by only a couples of dB.

I hope this will answer your questions.
Kind regards

Pierre Blanc
SONOSAX
Sales and Customer Support

[Brian Skalinder]

From Sonosax:

Dear Mr xxxx,

The SX-M2/LS which is no longer available is replaced by the  SX-M2/LS2.

The SX-M2 LS/2 provides with both a 5 pin Binder connector for the Schoeps KCY active cable and two 3 pin Lemo's.
The SX-M2/LS2 supply 48V for the Schoeps capsule.
The voltage difference between the 60V and the 48V is not an issue.
The 12V difference are almost negligible as it affect the max acoustic SPL ( Sound Pressure Level ) accepted at the capsule by only a couples of dB.

I hope this will answer your questions.
Kind regards

Pierre Blanc
SONOSAX
Sales and Customer Support

Thanks for the info, Noam.  FWIW, I recieved basically the same reply.  Bottom line (at least for me):  I trust Jerry Bruck's comments that it's an approved Schoeps solution, and I know for a fact that it works well since I and others have run the gear with excellent results.

[noam]

Indeed, they don’t fit. Chris from Sound Professionals was the only vendor who agreed to try if they would fit and they didn’t. Chris is an angel, he never refused me any stupid idea I had, and I have had a number. He agreed for example to build me a battery box with 2 in for 2 mics and one out, to combine the sound of 2 mics. He agreed to sell me a hypercardioid pair without the cardioids, even though they come together. He is always patient and gracious, no attitude.

So, why am I singing his praises? Not only because he agreed to receive expensive mics I did not buy from him and try to fit them into croakies, but because HE CAME UP WITH AN ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION TO HOOKING THESE MICS INTO GLASSES. 

Of course this is not for stealthing, but it’s a good way to get the mics at head level, the best level for optimal sound. (Let’s not get into the issue of cardioids in this position, that’s another opera.)

And how much did Chris charge me for this (and all the time he spent with me over the phone)? $0
Noam

[Ed.]

if not for stealth, why not just put them on a stand where they can get a little above the audience, and in different stereo configurations such as din, ortf, etc.

[-Q-]

i looked like a dork wearing the kangol (i use a baseball hat) but dude those glasses  what is your major malfunction private pyle 

[stlram]

Question: Budget stealth schoeps set up.

Answer: CCM-4's/V3/Microtrack "period"!

End of thread!

[Nick Graham]

Question: Budget stealth schoeps set up.

Answer: CCM-4's/V3/Microtrack "period"!

End of thread!

nor is a $1400 V3

Only real "budget" Schoeps setup is MK?>Nbox>DAT

Even that'll run you well over $2000

The Sonosax option isn't really "budget" either, as a new SXM2 is $1100, the KCY cable is $700, and the caps are $600 (or more) apiece. That (without any type of recorder) is already $3000.

[shaggy]

I am finding that 'Budget Schoeps' is a complete oxymoron.  You gotta lay down for this stuff and skimping is not the way to do it.

[Nick Graham]

I am finding that 'Budget Schoeps' is a complete oxymoron.  You gotta lay down for this stuff and skimping is not the way to do it.

Pretty much, yeah. But it's worth it....

[Kyle]

Hell yes it is

 

[stlram]

The poster asked for a "budget schoeps, stealth set up", which of course is relative but it would be reasonable to assume he meant with in reason, simple and stealth. That being said:

CCM4's (Why have all those cables, bodies, ect. Sure you might have interchangable caps but where talking simple and stealth here. Buy the CCM4 and enjoy the cards.)

V3 (Great pre and AD, simple and compact)

Microtrack (Cheap way to store 24 bit)

Again, all this fits the bill for what I assume the poster is requesting simple, stealth and relaively affordable, not a boondoggle of boxes and cables. But, then again I may be wrong. I have been before, usually every four years around election time!

Now get out and tape!

Ray

[stlram]

IMO, getting equipment past security and recording the show via stealth are two seperate issues. I know I'm dating myself but back in the day..............Blah, blah, blah big batteries, cables, decks, ect............ and still we would get it past security. Where there is a will there is a Ray. Oops, I mean way!

Anyway, once you get past security with what ever you bring in, and after 25 years of taping and 99.9999% being succesful getting equipment in, I'd say ccm4-v3-micro is pretty stealthy. I doesn't take up much room and can sit on your lap, under your chair or where ever and it gets you state of the art two track, too!

[Ed.]

if you are getting in with a v3, it means there is no meaningful security...same goes for the 722...both of them are too big to be considered stealth solutions....wearing a portabrace and not getting caught is NOT stealthing

no offense boogie, but i'm calling bullshit on that statement.  where there's a will theres a way.  sure, just cuz the guy with the v3 watched security for awhile, found the little old lady not doing pat downs, and went to her to get the gear thru, doesn't mean he's any less a stealther than you are.

i don't get why stealthing has to be done with a super small equipment that can fit in your underpants for it to be considered true stealth.  the only reason the v3 isn't stealthed more is because stealthers don't find it ideal for their needs and the people that use them don't usually need to stealth.  but honestly, its 100% stealthable, for any band, any venue, any security.

[tfs8271]

American Heritage

stealth (stµlth) n. 1. The act of moving, proceeding, or acting in a covert way. 2. The quality or characteristic of being furtive or covert. 3. Archaic. The act of stealing. [Middle English stelth, probably from Old English *stÆlth.]


Know where does mention size. Just thought I would throw that in.

#3. is a little harsh....mmmat would like that part 

My opinion would be if you record a show that does not allow taping, that would define a stealth taping.

[Ed.]

i agree whole-heartedly with you boogie, if stealthing was my main objective in taping, i wouldn't use a v3, i'd be using a much smaller pre/adc.  and if someone asked me for advice on a good stealth rig, i wouldn't recommend the v3.  however, i'd definitely say its possible to do so, even in the more difficult situations although it wouldn't be ideal and you might even need help getting everything in, but i think its possible.

maybe it wouldn't work for some hardcore metal band with wands and walk thru metal detectors, but i don't think i've ever taped a band that has had a walk thru.  but i think its safe to say that wands pretty much suck and with a little work, you can get stuff past them.

perhaps i'm lucky cuz i tape in michigan and security is usually pretty lax.  i've stealthed the v3 before, in a side bag.  i checked my levels a couple of times and never looked again, so the blinky lights really don't apply, plus they can easily be covered or dimmed with tape.  as for getting it in, i put it in a binder, completely hooked up, and the guard looked in my bag, touched the binder, moved some things around, and let me go on my way, never even noticing the v3.  in the same night another guard had a 5 minute conversation with a kid sitting in front of me about how he couldn't be taking pictures.  not to mention freelunch sitting right beside me with the 722 tucked away.  both of us with mics in our hat, and no one noticed.

so i know for a fact its possible, maybe not in the toughest of situations, but its possible in every venue in michigan, and that'll work for me.

+t's for stealthing, and making awesome recordings

[TNJazz]

a true stealth recording is one that is made under the nose of people who know what they are looking for

This too is my definition of stealthing.  If you can pull it off in a venue where security is actively LOOKING FOR YOU, then you are stealthing.

Dirk

[Brian Skalinder]

This too is my definition of stealthing.  If you can pull it off in a venue where security is actively LOOKING FOR YOU, then you are stealthing.

My definition is slightly different:

Unauthorized recording = making a recording when it's not allowed, but not necessarily covertly
Stealthing = covertly making a recording when it's not allowed, i.e. no one knows its happening (whether they're looking for you or not)

The requirement that someone must be looking for you in order for it to be "stealth" just doesn't make any sense to me, basically.

[todd e]

NOAM -

joining this conversation WAY too late, but i wanted to share a link with you.

i refused to run either the NBox or the Lemosax, and went with the option that hasn't been discussed at length here (the VMS02iB).

it is a much older pre-amp, one made by schoeps for schoeps.  it takes the kcy, no bodies needed, and is very small (think size of an sony m1)

also one last point, with the market bottoming out for DAT, grab a d100 or an m1 and ditch the HiMD.  just free advice, but for the about $150 you can get a nice DAT deck now.  i still can't believe that i am writing this part....  i paid too much and got in too soon.

anyways, here is the link www.titotito.com, i've got pictures of the vms, other schoeps gear and a place to download mp3 samples.  not trying to get fluffed for the site, but i just built it and it would have simplfied your search for gear. 

welcome to team schoeps.

oh yeah, budget and schoeps DO NO belong together.

[cdevs]

who knows whether they're looking or not? there have been countless times that an usher or whoever has been looking across the room in my direction and I'm SURE he's gonna bust me.  but in reality he's probably just checking out the rack on some chick in my general vicinity.

stealthing in my book is anytime taping is not explicitly permitted and you're using some sort of chicanery in order to get a tape made. could be mics in a hat, or handheld, or mics on a head-high stand FOB with a scarf covering them...you're still using some sort of subterfuge. on the other hand, when poeple will run mics in hat for convenience at a taping-friendly show, yeah, I guess I wouldn't call that 'stealth'.

p.s. not to be a stickler todd e, but isn't a vms02ib about twice the size (at least in thickness) of an M1?

[fuzn]

thing i dont like is when these jack-a-moes show up at a show i'm taping and are nearby and start drawing attention to themselves and their location...talking about recordings, etc...its unreal how stupid people get when they are stealth taping..maybe its the nerves
boogie

Happened to me last week! +T

[tapeworm48]

Unauthorized recording = making a recording when it's not allowed, but not necessarily covertly
Stealthing = covertly making a recording when it's not allowed, i.e. no one knows its happening (whether they're looking for you or not)

The requirement that someone must be looking for you in order for it to be "stealth" just doesn't make any sense to me, basically.

my feelings exactly.  i never attend open taping shows (nature of the bands i like) so i am always stealthing.  having to sneak in equipment and then try to fit in with the crowd while taping is all part of stealthing IMHO.  security might not be looking to bust tapers, but we've all heard of stories when nearby concertgoers rat out tapers.

i'd rather that no one other than my partner(s) in crime know about the tape we are making...

[cdevs]

A number of the artists I like to see/tape play "sit-down music" in nice theatres where a pat-down -- or even asking to look in someone's purse -- would be considered uncouth. But you better be damned sure that an usher would bust me in a second if they thought I was taping. So to me, it has a lot more to do with how you handle and conceal the mics and being discreet re: checking the deck than it does the gear you bring. YMMV.

As for not stealthing a V3...I don't own one, but I'm looking here at my old D-5 and remembering the many times I snuck it, mics, cables and a power supply into shows -- sometimes all on my person. And who says everything has to be on your body? That's a last resort.

Hell, I wrapped my D-5 in a box and said it was a Christmas present I'd just bought to get it into a Jane's Addiction show in NYC. They told me to take it to the coat check. Yeah, right.

[Nick Graham]

This too is my definition of stealthing.  If you can pull it off in a venue where security is actively LOOKING FOR YOU, then you are stealthing.

My definition is slightly different:

Unauthorized recording = making a recording when it's not allowed, but not necessarily covertly
Stealthing = covertly making a recording when it's not allowed, i.e. no one knows its happening (whether they're looking for you or not)

The requirement that someone must be looking for you in order for it to be "stealth" just doesn't make any sense to me, basically.

Agreed.

Taping isn't allowed, you're hiding the fact you're doing it = stealthing.

Arguing the specifics is silly. Whether you're getting CSBs, a battery box and a Hi-MD through the security at the Pentagon, or nonchalantly walking in the front door with a V3 and U87s....if you're taping something you're not supposed to and hiding it - you're stealthing.

[itook2much]

Whether you're getting CSBs, a battery box and a Hi-MD through the security at the Pentagon, or nonchalantly walking in the front door with a V3 and U87s....if you're taping something you're not supposed to and hiding it - you're stealthing.

Can I get a B&P of the Jopint Cheifs of Staff meeting?

[todd e]

p.s. not to be a stickler todd e, but isn't a vms02ib about twice the size (at least in thickness) of an M1?

true, the thickness is a bit more than the m1, i was really referring to the footprint of the vms029b more than the width.
plus it has two sets of outputs, simultaneous output, and a headphones jack and somewhat variable gain knobs (fixed ranges, but you can increase it) with a roll-off function.

i just saying, it's another option for a schoeps active setup that hasn't been discussed.

front picture of unit http://www.titotito.com/recgear/VMS02.gif

pictures of the vms, compared to the d8 with some sweet cables! (custom made by leggeddy, BNC (2) > 1/8" Stereo plug)
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=49222.0

[cdevs]

I'm with ya -- that's a great-looking rig

[spearheadtaper]

so is it unheard off to run   mk4 > NBox > jb3 ??

whats the difference sound wise in the Nbox and the kcy cables

[Nick Graham]

so is it unheard off to run   mk4 > NBox > jb3 ??

whats the difference sound wise in the Nbox and the kcy cables

FWIW, it seems like most people running Schoeps>NBox use either a M1 or D100, and there was a comp torrent awhile back between the D100 and JB3's line in, and they were similar enough that no one would really complain.

[spearheadtaper]

so is it unheard off to run   mk4 > NBox > jb3 ??

whats the difference sound wise in the Nbox and the kcy cables

FWIW, it seems like most people running Schoeps>NBox use either a M1 or D100, and there was a comp torrent awhile back between the D100 and JB3's line in, and they were similar enough that no one would really complain.

cool .....well the I can use a friends jb3 so with just having to buy the Mk4's and Nbox that makes things seem pretty possible with the 2,000 dollar budget...

[Ed.]

i think you'll be a happy camper with some mk4's and an nbox, do it up and make some tapes (err, recordings)!

[spearheadtaper]

any schoeps people that come across this ...or anyone that knows anyone that maybe selling mk4's or an Nbox send me a PM I have cash in hand ready to purchase