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Gear / Technical Help => Photo / Video Recording => Topic started by: Depechemode1993 on August 13, 2010, 02:42:58 PM

Title: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: Depechemode1993 on August 13, 2010, 02:42:58 PM
So I have been trying to setup this multi-cam edit with Final Cut Pro for the past few days and it has been very frustrating. I have 8 camera angles from a show. They were all filmed in AVCHD (all have about 2 GB splits, so a total of 7-8 files per camera). I encoded them to Apple Interm. HDV files so they are all the same and native to FCP.

FCP is nothing like Vegas. I feel like Vegas is so much simpler. But anyways getting back to the multi-clip.... I have the 8 cameras and since its not just one big file how do I sync them up camera to camera? I understand the inpoint for the first file and those sync up easily, but how do I add the rest of the camera angles to the multi-clip? When I select all of them they all will start at the beginning of the timeline instead of being added after the first of its camera files? Is this making sense? Here are some screenshots of what I am talking about. I just want to be able to do a live edit of this thing (like I have seen on youtube) on final cut. But I have not even been able to start this thing. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.


here is an example of a few cameras (3) I have. You can see that the first files are synced up with the in points. But then the rest of the files are all independent to their first files of footage.
(http://www.reflectinginthechrome.com/ryanj/finalcut.png)


I want them to be able to look just like this, the whole camera angle in consecutive order. not like on top.
(http://www.reflectinginthechrome.com/ryanj/finalcut2.png)
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: willndmb on August 13, 2010, 02:58:27 PM
i am lost as to your exact issue but here is what i do
on the top left you should have your project and imported files
there should also be the sequence "file"
double click that to make sure its in the bottom across the whole screen
drag and drop the first part of camera one into the sequence timeline ("V1")
you should see the video and audio (which will need to be rendered or have audio dropped in)
at the end of the file drag and drop part 2 (and so on)
drag and drop camera 2 start file into "V2"
repeat for each file/camera

see the N shaped icon in the bottom left of the image you attached? click that to edit the angles so you can see the one you want when you want
use the top "arrow" icon on the far right to move the files to line them up and the bottom one to move the bar up and down for each angles fade in/out
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: firmdragon on August 13, 2010, 03:24:39 PM
i think i understand your problem.  so basically you've got 8 different angles, but each individual angle has multiple splits in them?  *if* you have external audio, or a 1 angle that is complete with no breaks, use that audio to essentially sync up all the other broken files.  after which you can export angles so you only have 8 'complete' angles, then do the whole multicam thing.  if you don't have a complete audio to synch to, then it gets trickier....
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: Depechemode1993 on August 13, 2010, 03:35:53 PM
i think i understand your problem.  so basically you've got 8 different angles, but each individual angle has multiple splits in them?  *if* you have external audio, or a 1 angle that is complete with no breaks, use that audio to essentially sync up all the other broken files.  after which you can export angles so you only have 8 'complete' angles, then do the whole multicam thing.  if you don't have a complete audio to synch to, then it gets trickier....

I have 8 angles. All are complete. But because they were recorded on a Sony Hard Drive cam, all of the files are stopped at 2.12 GB and split into another file.

So once I sync all of the files how can I go about doing a multi-clip like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vvIwOGO8ZQ

Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: Depechemode1993 on August 13, 2010, 04:00:26 PM
ok, so I tried taking just 2 (for right now) and syncing both of them. I tried syncing the first kick bass that starts off the first song as my marker. I put a marker down on both files and then put the remaining video files in place. But when I go to the end of the set, both videos are out of sync? Both videos were shot in 29fps if you would like to know. What am I doing wrong?

Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: beatkilla on August 13, 2010, 04:42:51 PM
Cant offer any advice on final cut as i only use vegas,but to overcome the file splits use mts file rejoiner it will rejoin the files seamlessly back together. Or i will offer to do your whole project for you.I work natively with AVCHD in vegas pro 9 with no transcoding.
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: Depechemode1993 on August 13, 2010, 07:15:46 PM
Cant offer any advice on final cut as i only use vegas,but to overcome the file splits use mts file rejoiner it will rejoin the files seamlessly back together. Or i will offer to do your whole project for you.I work natively with AVCHD in vegas pro 9 with no transcoding.

I would really like to learn how to use FCP, since that is what I have here. Thanks for the offer.

I am beyond frustrated right now.
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: beatkilla on August 13, 2010, 09:06:15 PM
For starters look for MTSfilejoiner its freeware and will fix the 2gb splits.Last i checked final cut didnt support avchd.Good luck and PM me if i can be of any assistance.
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: Depechemode1993 on August 13, 2010, 09:11:53 PM
For starters look for MTSfilejoiner its freeware and will fix the 2gb splits.Last i checked final cut didnt support avchd.Good luck and PM me if i can be of any assistance.

Thanks beatkilla. Final Cut does not support AVCHD. So I had to convert the files to Apple Interm. Codec.

I am going through manually trying to sync everything up. Will see how this goes...
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: willndmb on August 13, 2010, 10:03:19 PM
ok, so I tried taking just 2 (for right now) and syncing both of them. I tried syncing the first kick bass that starts off the first song as my marker. I put a marker down on both files and then put the remaining video files in place. But when I go to the end of the set, both videos are out of sync? Both videos were shot in 29fps if you would like to know. What am I doing wrong?
you may not be doing anything "wrong" all recording devices have different internal clocks and over time can see drift
there are ways to "stretch" files but i have never had luck doing that
the way i usually "fix" the problem is find 2 spots - 1 where it is on and one where its off, the closer together the better
cut the video in between somewhere and reposition it to be in synch again
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: Depechemode1993 on August 13, 2010, 10:07:44 PM
ok, so I tried taking just 2 (for right now) and syncing both of them. I tried syncing the first kick bass that starts off the first song as my marker. I put a marker down on both files and then put the remaining video files in place. But when I go to the end of the set, both videos are out of sync? Both videos were shot in 29fps if you would like to know. What am I doing wrong?
you may not be doing anything "wrong" all recording devices have different internal clocks and over time can see drift
there are ways to "stretch" files but i have never had luck doing that
the way i usually "fix" the problem is find 2 spots - 1 where it is on and one where its off, the closer together the better
cut the video in between somewhere and reposition it to be in synch again

Cool. I am trying that right now.

Even so, the reason I started with these two is that they are from the same brand and almost the same model (Sony HDR-SR10 and Sony HDR-SR11). Even between these two we would see such difference?
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: Depechemode1993 on August 13, 2010, 10:36:01 PM
Well I got those two camera angles to mesh together! Actually what happened is when the Sony Cam would make the new file, it would actually stop recording for a few frames (I am guessing this is what its called?). Because I made track markers for each track and you could see it in the timeline:


(http://www.reflectinginthechrome.com/ryanj/dropout.png)
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: Depechemode1993 on August 14, 2010, 12:16:47 AM
So after a few hours of marking, I finally got all 8 cams synced and lined up! How do I go about using the "make multiclip" function out of the synced cameras? The other way how I use the razor blade tool and cut out everything is a bit tedious. I would rather just go through it one time live and just make cuts like that.

(http://www.reflectinginthechrome.com/ryanj/allsynced.png)
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: firmdragon on August 14, 2010, 02:55:15 AM
make only one of angles visible.  you can also do the same with the audio.  then export it into a new file.  repeat for all the other angles.  it helps if you make all of them have the same in point as well as audio.  then do the multiclip function. 
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: Depechemode1993 on August 14, 2010, 03:08:39 AM
make only one of angles visible.  you can also do the same with the audio.  then export it into a new file.  repeat for all the other angles.  it helps if you make all of them have the same in point as well as audio.  then do the multiclip function.

Already starting it. Thank you everyone for your help!

One question with the in point. That is not necessarily where it begins, its just a place where it will sync the files? Because if I start at the first drum kick, I want to be able to have like 30 seconds before that.
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: firmdragon on August 14, 2010, 03:49:37 AM
pretty much.  since you already have everything in sync you might as well have it at the beginning of the timeline for each individual angle.  you get to put another in point for the multiclip timeline
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: willndmb on August 14, 2010, 08:31:54 AM
So after a few hours of marking, I finally got all 8 cams synced and lined up! How do I go about using the "make multiclip" function out of the synced cameras? The other way how I use the razor blade tool and cut out everything is a bit tedious. I would rather just go through it one time live and just make cuts like that.

(http://www.reflectinginthechrome.com/ryanj/allsynced.png)
go back and check out my first post
you want to click the "N" shaped icon which you can see in your 2nd attahcment
that will set a bunch of black lines where you can use the bottom arrow icon from the far right (where the razor bade is too) and move the line up and down to have only what you want visible
when you click the line it will put a dot, click it agian somehwere else and a 2nd dot, drage one of the dots up down sideways whatever
the video that is on top (in your case would be "V8" if you used all 8 angles) will always be seen unless the black line is down all the way, then you will seethe next highest angle/line
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: Depechemode1993 on August 14, 2010, 01:04:52 PM
So after a few hours of marking, I finally got all 8 cams synced and lined up! How do I go about using the "make multiclip" function out of the synced cameras? The other way how I use the razor blade tool and cut out everything is a bit tedious. I would rather just go through it one time live and just make cuts like that.

*picture*
go back and check out my first post
you want to click the "N" shaped icon which you can see in your 2nd attahcment
that will set a bunch of black lines where you can use the bottom arrow icon from the far right (where the razor bade is too) and move the line up and down to have only what you want visible
when you click the line it will put a dot, click it agian somehwere else and a 2nd dot, drage one of the dots up down sideways whatever
the video that is on top (in your case would be "V8" if you used all 8 angles) will always be seen unless the black line is down all the way, then you will seethe next highest angle/line

Do I need to do that if I am using the multi-clip feature?

I just synced all of the footage with an in-point and made the multi-clip. I dragged the mutli-clip into the timeline and now I am in some trouble again....

I put the video to "open" as I want to just do a live edit of the 8 cameras. But when I press play on the timeline sequence window, the viewer to the left plays nothing. Its only when I stop that I see everything at once. Can my computer not handle the 8 videos going at once? I am (at the moment) playing back all of the videos 100% quality, should I reduce that so maybe all of them play? Or am I missing a step here?
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: willndmb on August 14, 2010, 01:46:30 PM
i might not be understanding the issue
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: Depechemode1993 on August 14, 2010, 02:38:01 PM
i might not be understanding the issue

basically what I am trying to do is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vvIwOGO8ZQ (Go to 3:17)

Nothing plays on the left hand side of the screen. So I started messing with the settings down on the timeline (the RT tab up on the top left) and I clicked the multiclip tab. The cameras started to run just like the video above. But then I get this error:

(http://www.reflectinginthechrome.com/ryanj/error.png)


I am guessing because its in 1080i that its way too much for my macbook pro to handle. So what should I do? Should I render these 8 cameras to standard definitions and edit them that way. Then is there someway to take all of the camera angles that I have edited from the standard def. version and put them into the HD version?
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: beatkilla on August 14, 2010, 05:30:49 PM
You will need serious cpu power to play 8 hd streams.I dont think any current computer can play 8 full hd streams.
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: Depechemode1993 on August 14, 2010, 05:35:47 PM
You will need serious cpu power to play 8 hd streams.I dont think any current computer can play 8 full hd streams.

ok, so what do I do?
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: beatkilla on August 14, 2010, 06:10:59 PM
Well what i do with multicam hd projects in vegas is make ntsc dv widescreen avis of each hd file and edit the sd version.than after im all done with the sd version in vegas in the project media window if you right click on your media there is an option to replace .thats when i replace all the sd clips with the hd versions.switch the project properties to proper hd template and render to avchd for bluray.the trick is that the sd and hd clips have to be exactly the same length and exactly same start and end point.so either make all new hd files that have no splits and than make sd  clips same way or trickier and take each segment of your hd files that are segmented and make all segmented sd clips and replace each one assuming you can replace in final cut.are you going to bluray?if so what will you render to?i use avchd at 16mbps and have found it much higher quality than mpeg2 at 25mbps cbr.
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: Depechemode1993 on August 14, 2010, 11:13:21 PM
Well what i do with multicam hd projects in vegas is make ntsc dv widescreen avis of each hd file and edit the sd version.than after im all done with the sd version in vegas in the project media window if you right click on your media there is an option to replace .thats when i replace all the sd clips with the hd versions.switch the project properties to proper hd template and render to avchd for bluray.the trick is that the sd and hd clips have to be exactly the same length and exactly same start and end point.so either make all new hd files that have no splits and than make sd  clips same way or trickier and take each segment of your hd files that are segmented and make all segmented sd clips and replace each one assuming you can replace in final cut.are you going to bluray?if so what will you render to?i use avchd at 16mbps and have found it much higher quality than mpeg2 at 25mbps cbr.

I am guessing you can do that in FCP. What should I export the footage at for you FCP users? I did it to one of the clips and I used Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) Anamorphic. Its still rather large (44 GB) which is only a few GB less than the HD version. Should I have used something else?
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: firmdragon on August 14, 2010, 11:27:58 PM
how smoothly does it run if you unclick the warn me next time part?
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: Depechemode1993 on August 14, 2010, 11:40:54 PM
how smoothly does it run if you unclick the warn me next time part?

it runs pretty good for about 15 seconds then it starts to drop again.

I am guessing because the footage is on an external HD? I don't have enough room on my MB Pro to store almost 300 GB of footage.
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: willndmb on August 15, 2010, 06:24:57 PM
i might not be understanding the issue

basically what I am trying to do is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vvIwOGO8ZQ (Go to 3:17)
ahh gottcha
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: Depechemode1993 on August 16, 2010, 03:01:14 AM
Does anyone know what I should export the footage to for SD?
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: beatkilla on August 16, 2010, 07:06:08 AM
What are the choices?Should be 720 x 480 16:9 widescreen ntsc dv avi type 1.I think in final cut it is .mov
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: willndmb on August 16, 2010, 09:33:38 AM
What are the choices?Should be 720 x 480 16:9 widescreen ntsc dv avi type 1.I think in final cut it is .mov
that depends if you use quicktime or compressor
compressor its .m2v
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: hummat on August 16, 2010, 11:21:57 AM
avi and mpeg2 are not going to be your best options for writing a temp/working file.  stick to quicktime format (mov) and FCP will play nicer.
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: Depechemode1993 on August 16, 2010, 12:17:37 PM
avi and mpeg2 are not going to be your best options for writing a temp/working file.  stick to quicktime format (mov) and FCP will play nicer.

ok, I can export to mov files, but there are so many choices when you use the "export" button on FCP. I don't know which one is better?

Ryan
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: newvideo on September 04, 2010, 01:36:33 AM
I haven't seen anyone mention it here, but one of the most productive tools in the FCP aftermarket is PluralEyes by Singular Software.

It works INSIDE FCP as a multi-cam video syncing program that works by analyzing the AUDIO tracks of multiple camera takes and aligning the various camera angles by using the sound waveforms. This means that it DOES NOT require timecode of any kind - and it also successfully syncs multiple cameras where they have been started and stopped randomly.

All you need to do is properly set up the ANGLE information in the FCP timeline database to properly identify your multiple cameras and then invoke Plural Eyes and take a break. When you come back, the various takes and tracks should all be in sync and your multi-cam timeline built.

It's almost magic.

Remember, FCP would not have nearly 2 million paid seats out there if it was actually hard to use or counter-intuitive.  Yes, it's often hard to re-train yourself - particularly if you've already trained your brain to think in ways that another NLE does things. But the entire television, movie and indy film communities couldn't ALL be duped into thinking FCP is a great tool - if it wasn't.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Final Cut Pro - The most difficult program to multi-cam edit...
Post by: willndmb on September 04, 2010, 07:12:20 PM
i tried PE a few times and it never worked
i was in emails back and forth with the tech team and they couldn't get it to work either
came to the conclusion 1 of 2 things the time delay of the aud mics vs sbd and/or the overall internal clocks