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Offline rippleish20

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Are match pairs really that critical
« on: May 23, 2016, 01:38:30 PM »
I am looking to buy some MK41V's and a matched pair takes 4-6 weeks from Germany. When I bought my Telefunkens I bought a matched pair, but, in the end, is this really very important (except for perhaps increasing resale value)? Thoughts?

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Offline Jhurlbs81

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Re: Are match pairs really that critical
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2016, 01:48:04 PM »
I don't think it's that important, especially when buying from a company with a reputation like Schoeps.    Worst case this is all fixed in post anyway when you normalize the channels. Just my opinion.
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Offline Sebastian

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Re: Are match pairs really that critical
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2016, 03:14:01 PM »
I bought a new unmatched pair of MK4 caps a few months ago and I couldn't notice a difference between the two. Especially when taping live concerts in less than ideal situations, I think other factors will have a way higher impact on your results. A matched pair might have a higher resale value, but then again you pay the difference up front.

Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

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Re: Are match pairs really that critical
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2016, 03:33:36 PM »
I bought two individual Oktava's as my first set of "real mics." One cap was about 2db less than the other. The only thing I had to do in post was raise whatever channel that mic was on 2db. I did it for every recording. After that I couldn't tell the difference.

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Offline H₂O

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Re: Are match pairs really that critical
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2016, 03:48:00 PM »
Depends on the quality of the manufacturer (i.e. quality control and acceptable variation of db off a predefined measured baseline)

But with Schoeps I have tended to have pretty good luck with both vintage (even capsules 45+ years in age) and colette series caps - where all pairs I have owned sound pretty close.   

The gotcha is resale - people will pay more for the "matched" pairs vs a pair of unmatched singles even though soniclly it may make little difference - you do get a nice cert and box to store your matched pair in though.

Also personally I would buy used caps if you can as you can save a ton of money - obviously it's not easy to find used mk41v's - mk41's are very common (probably the most common of the Colette caps) though and sound similar and can be found for $1000 a pair and less if you get lucky and creative with your purchasing strategy (i.e. buy a pair of used CMC641's and sell the CMC6's) - assuming condition isn't as important

As others have stated here before after a pair is in the field for a decent time period matching doesn't matter as the diaphragms tensions can change slightly due to changes in environment - so to only be absolutly sure a pair of used caps are matched is to send back to the manufacturer for a retest - and if they are off there is no guarantee they can match them back again. 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 03:49:41 PM by H₂O »
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Offline rippleish20

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Re: Are match pairs really that critical
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2016, 04:04:24 PM »
The company I am inclined to buy from (primarily because I can skip the sales tax) wont charge me extra for the matched pair so cost is no different, just waiting time. I generally agree with buying used but it depends on the overall savings potential - Given the importance of the microphones to the recording my inclination is to buy them new or from someone where I know the history. The biggest issue in this case is that I have not run across many used 41Vs...  The resale value is the biggest reason I see for a matched pair...
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Offline T-90

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Re: Are match pairs really that critical
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2016, 05:52:04 PM »
Wish I could get a matched pair of ears  ;)
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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Are match pairs really that critical
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2016, 11:22:05 AM »
I picked up 4vs that may or not be matched, they are sequentially numbered. Is there a way to check with Schoeps on history, anyone have s contact?
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Offline Sebastian

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Re: Are match pairs really that critical
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2016, 11:39:33 AM »
I picked up 4vs that may or not be matched, they are sequentially numbered. Is there a way to check with Schoeps on history, anyone have s contact?

You can e-mail Bernhard Vollmer at Schoeps. He's usually very helpful. Vollmer@schoeps.de

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Are match pairs really that critical
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2016, 08:44:09 PM »
Thanks!
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Re: Are match pairs really that critical
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2016, 09:02:47 PM »
Not important at all if you record live music in an imperfect setting.  Marginal IMO importance in a controlled studio setting.  Biggest and mostly important so you can tell the next guy you're trying to sell them to a couple years from now 'oh yeah they're matched and it's REALLY important'.

Offline voltronic

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Re: Are match pairs really that critical
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2016, 10:48:31 PM »
The non-matched but new pair of 4061s I bought here on the YS turned out to be within 1dB of each other.  I may have been very lucky, but at 3 serial numbers apart that tells me that the better manufacturers have very good consistency and QC.
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Are match pairs really that critical
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2016, 05:39:59 AM »
I have MK4's that are matched, and MK41's that are not matched, and even have different housings[nickel and nextel grey] that are way off from each other number wise, and they are just about dead even ;D My one nickel mk41 is from the year I was born[1980] and has NEVER been to the factory for a checkup, and my nextel grey mk41 was born in 1992 and only been back to Germany once, and they are pretty damn close in output! Like Tonedeaf said, its not really that crucial because its so easy to fix in post, but that said, I do want a pair of matched MK41's lol ;D Like others have said, the QC at a company like Schoeps is so tight, that its not necessary to have matched capsules when recording like we do in the field IMO! However, for someone OCD like me, I'm glad my caps are super close in output and my levels are usually about even :P

My MK4's are dead nuts even in output, but other than making me feel warm and fuzzy inside that they're matched and so close in output, its not necessary to have matched capsules since it's so easy to adjust levels in post IMO! Especially since we record in such imperfect situations a lot of the time. As always, YMMV!
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Offline rippleish20

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Re: Are match pairs really that critical
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2016, 10:48:57 PM »
All/most of you confirm my concusion that its not that critical. It looks like I have to wait 6-8 weeks for a KCY cable anyways so I will probably end up getting a matched pair anyways....
AKG C480B (ck61, ck63, ck8) /  Neumann KM100 (AK40, AK50) / AT853s  (cardiod, omni) / CA-14 (cardiod) / CA-11 (Omni) / Mixpre-10t / Mixpre-6 / Roland R-07 / Zoom F-3
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Are match pairs really that critical
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2016, 11:21:46 PM »
Capsules vary not only in sensitivity (= output level for a given sound pressure level); they also vary in frequency response, particularly at both ends of the spectrum. You might not hear a 1 or 2 dB response deviation at 10 kHz in a mono recording--but if that same deviation occurs in just one microphone (and not the other one) of a pair that you're using for stereo, you're far more likely to hear and feel that something isn't right; our ears are much more sensitive in that situation, because our brains differentiate left vs. right amplitude and phase in an almost uncannily sensitive manner.

For people who record with X/Y or ORTF or Blumlein or other similar techniques, the more similar the two microphones are in all parameters, the better. So matched pairs are advantageous for that particular type of recording--which happens to be the kind that I think most people here do most of the time.

You can take a hint from the manufacturers of stereo microphones. The capsules are selected as matched pairs when the microphones are made, and if you damage a capsule on (say) a Neumann USM 69 and send it in for repair, the company will replace both capsules at the same time with a new, matched pair (a 15% additional fee is charged for the pair matching). If you buy a Schoeps MSTC 64 or CMXY 4V stereo microphone, you're getting a matched pair of capsules whether you like it or not; there's no option NOT to do so. AKG similarly used to pair-match the capsules in both their large-diaphragm and small-diaphragm stereo mikes. This is not just done for reasons of pride or looking good on paper; it directly affects the audible effectiveness of the microphone when used for precisely the purpose it was designed to be used for.

Most single microphones, however, are NOT sold to people who use them in coincident or closely-spaced pairs for stereo recording. Thus pair matching is unimportant to most customers. It's even considered a bad thing by some people, who feel that it reduces the chance of finding one really great (in their opinion) U 47 or C 12 that might occur in a batch. That's why most manufacturers haven't offered pair selection (which is a bit troublesome for them in a number of respects) to the general public until relatively recently--although well-connected customers have been offered it privately for at least as long as I've been in the business, or on an "if you know enough to ask for it, you can get it" basis, all of which I say from direct experience.

--A person could argue that pair selection is more important when the manufacturer is less strict about consistency to begin with; I wouldn't disagree. But then again, I wouldn't use any microphones for coincident or closely-spaced stereo setups unless they were very consistent to begin with. And it's very hard to make capsules be that consistent, even for the world's leading manufacturers. It's one of the major reasons why their microphones are expensive.

--best regards
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 08:31:42 AM by DSatz »
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