Topic: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")

[marenius]

Hi all!

First of all, the mixer available for rental in Sweden is MM-3100 and not MM-4220.
MM-3100 is a 3-inputs mono mixer.

About the 16/24 bits issue:
Our goal with the design of MM-4220 has been to make a professional 4 inputs mixer with an additional recording feature.
In order to keep power consumption low we decided to go for 16/48. For 24/96 the processor capacity would have been 3 times larger and we would also need a lot more memory to compensate for the fairly slow writing time to the CompactFlash card. All this would increase power consumption.
This was an easy decision, since very few portable mixers, MM-4220 included, will offer much more than 96 dB dynamic range = 16 bits. 24 bits would be overkill, nice to write in a datasheet but quite useless.
As of today, there are no 24-bit converters that actually offer 144 dB dynamic range and I seriously doubt there will be. One of the very best A/D´s is CS5381. It offers 120 dB dynamic range = 20 bits.
Note that old times 16-bit A/D´s only delivered about 14,5 bits of resolution.
In MM-4220 we get the full 16 bits resolution.
There is also a digital AES3id output that delivers 24 bits, although dynamic range is still limited to less than 100 dB.

FYI we have started a design project with the goal to make a 6-channels mixer with 6-channels of parallel recording at 24/96. This will be a larger unit and, of course, much higher priced.
We would be happy to receive suggestions to features and performance goals for this new mixer.

In the US, Markertek has distributed our MM-3100 mixer for almost two decades.
The last few years the low rate of the USD has made it hard to avoid losing money on this mixer.
Also, the insurance cost for putting products on the US market is extreme.
Lately, the USD rate has improved a lot and we are considering to increase our activities in the US market again. Meanwhile, we can offer direct sale with payment through PayPal. Today the price for MM-4220 is USD 1700.00 excl. VAT and shipping cost.

/Leif

Links:
http://www.marenius.se/products/mm4220.html
http://www.marenius.se/products/mm3100.html

[Roving Sign]

Hi all!

First of all, the mixer available for rental in Sweden is MM-3100 and not MM-4220.
MM-3100 is a 3-inputs mono mixer.

About the 16/24 bits issue:
Our goal with the design of MM-4220 has been to make a professional 4 inputs mixer with an additional recording feature.
In order to keep power consumption low we decided to go for 16/48. For 24/96 the processor capacity would have been 3 times larger and we would also need a lot more memory to compensate for the fairly slow writing time to the CompactFlash card. All this would increase power consumption.

I think the confusion is stemming from understanding the 24bit processors role in producing a good 16 bit signal...perhaps we all just assume if it's a 16 bit unit - then the A/D must be 16 bit.

Im guessing this means there is a 24 bit capture which is then dithered down to 16 bits before being recorded to the card...(for the reasons you mention)

this probably isnt that uncommon...I think even the JB3 has a "24 bit" A/D in it...(been a while since I looked at that stuff...?)

[Gutbucket]

The biggest concern I'd have is the recorder portion. The display appears very minimal with a single LED indicator on the faceplate. No time display, filename, etc.

18vdc power can be provided by wiring up an external battery pack with lower voltage cells in series- Two 9v Li-ion 'DVD' batts, or twelve 1.5v cells (standard AA's, D's, C's etc).

[ghellquist]

It is confusing yes, but the reason is quite simple.

No one of us has ever experienced 24 bit resolution. There is not a single machine useable on location that actually supports 24 bits. You cannot buy a series produced sound frequency box anywhere that really supports 24 bits full out, not at any price. (You might find things like that in a radio telescope where they cool the electronics with liquid helium).

Many of the smaller boxes, say the R09 or whatever, just about reaches 16 bits with a bit of stretcg. The sellers lie to you when they call them 24 bits. It is sort like the people putting extra large exhaust pipes on their cars - no more motor but the bystander might believe it. The older 16 bit boxes often came to 13 or 14 bits in real-life performance.

The simple reason is that the electronics in the boxes are noisy. The noise masks any real info coming in the last bits. How many last bits depends on the electronics. The simple and fast rule is that to get lower noise you need to burn more power, ie shorter battery life. Or alternatively use a transformer, meaning heavy and expensive.

So in a light, inexpensive box with long battery life you know what to expect -- noise. Meaning less bits of true-world performance.

In this world of marketing hysteria (you know people are already talking about 384 KHz sampling) it is so refreshing to see a manufacturer that both knows what he is doing and does not lie to you.

// Gunnar

Of course, there are boxes supporting more than 16 bits full out. But not as many as marketing wants us to belive. Tell tale is the figure S/N (signal to noise ratio). Below 100dB and we are talking 16 bits max. A problem -- absolutely not, a typical rock concert might have a dynamic range of 20 dB. A breeze for a 15 bit recorder.

[Todd R]

Interesting find.  Personally, for what we do, I think recording 4ch separately in the field and doing a post-production mix down to 2ch makes it easier to accomplish good 4ch mixes than trying to get it right in the field.

That said, Marenius make very nice gear.  I owned and ran the Marenius MM4210 4ch preamp and mixer for awhile, and this looks like its successor.  The MM4210 was very well thought out, came in an excellent small package with very good ergonomics, and sounded great.  With its size and its sound, I would also recommend it just as a 2ch preamp.

If anyone is interested in checking out the Marenius sound, Trew Audio has a used Marenius MM4200 mixer (the generation before my MM4210, two gens earlier than the mixer/recorder in this thread) for $300CAD, which is about $240 US -- really a great price.  At this price, it really is worth checking out even just for use as a 2ch mic preamp.  At least assuming it sounds as good as the old MM4210 I had, which it probably does.

[H₂O]

Good point! But AFAIK, it has only two analog inputs. Plenty of competition in that segment.

The Mini-r82 actually has 4 Analog inputs (MIC/LINE 1-2 and LINE 3-4)

[sunjan]

First of all, the mixer available for rental in Sweden is MM-3100 and not MM-4220.
MM-3100 is a 3-inputs mono mixer.

Looking at page 4 in this PDF, it sure looks like Filmcentrum do offer both the 3100 and the 4220 for rental?!
http://sthlm.filmcentrum.se/media/user/files/prislista.pdf

Is that a typo, or maybe the unit hasn't been delivered to them yet?

If ghellquist jumps the gun and takes it out for rental one day, I'm itching to be his sidekick/rigger, just to see the test results... 

[Colin Liston]

Interesting find.  Personally, for what we do, I think recording 4ch separately in the field and doing a post-production mix down to 2ch makes it easier to accomplish good 4ch mixes than trying to get it right in the field.

That said, Marenius make very nice gear.  I owned and ran the Marenius MM4210 4ch preamp and mixer for awhile, and this looks like its successor.  The MM4210 was very well thought out, came in an excellent small package with very good ergonomics, and sounded great.  With its size and its sound, I would also recommend it just as a 2ch preamp.

I have the MM4210 (your old one?) and it is a fine pre-amp.  I don't run it near enough but it makes for an excellent 2 channel preamp.

[Ozpeter]

In portable location recording gear, 24 bits indeed is unlikely to give you a demonstrable benefit in the actual sound (in terms of dynamic range) but it does enable you to record at conservative levels without anything useful disappearing off the bottom.  And in the heat of a live recording, conservative levels are good.  So I don't regard 24 bit capable gear as a total con - just bear in mind the realities and the purpose.

The typical dynamic range of a 16 bit recording is I believe about 96dB.  In your DAW try reducing the level of part of a loud recording by 70dB, and play it back in your usual listening environment having set the replay level according to how the unchanged loud bit sounds.  I think you'll struggle to hear the -70dB level, let alone hear -90dB or less.  Finding locations to record in, and locations to replay in, that justify more than a 96dB dynamic range is really, really hard - in my view.

[marenius]

First of all, the mixer available for rental in Sweden is MM-3100 and not MM-4220.
MM-3100 is a 3-inputs mono mixer.

Looking at page 4 in this PDF, it sure looks like Filmcentrum do offer both the 3100 and the 4220 for rental?!
http://sthlm.filmcentrum.se/media/user/files/prislista.pdf

Is that a typo, or maybe the unit hasn't been delivered to them yet?

If ghellquist jumps the gun and takes it out for rental one day, I'm itching to be his sidekick/rigger, just to see the test results... 

I agree!
However, I don´t recall having sold one to them and the rental cost is the same as for the MM-3100, priced at 1/3 of the MM-4220...!
They probably have a mixer that we produced in a small quantity in 1995. Unfortunately, this mixer also had the name MM-4220.
It is characterized by large battery capacity, digital pots, all functions handled by a menu system, ... and a lot of weight.

By the way, I can announce that MM-4220 now also records 24 bits.
We have added a choice between 16 and 24 bits.
This is handled in the setup menu, available through a terminal software in a PC connected to the USB socket.
Note that in 24 bits mode filesize is doubled because we actually record 4 words (of 16 bits) per sample. Also note that we, as well as most other vendors, recommend the use of high-speed CF memory cards for this mode.

[kirk97132]

I'd like to give their two-channel transformer pre a run...


SMF-5
http://www.marenius.se/products/smf5.html

So it looks like that thing would only be $554 can that be true?  And it will run on two 9v akalines, DAMN!  I wonder what shipping is from Sweden?

[sunjan]

By the way, I can announce that MM-4220 now also records 24 bits.
We have added a choice between 16 and 24 bits.
This is handled in the setup menu, available through a terminal software in a PC connected to the USB socket.
Note that in 24 bits mode filesize is doubled because we actually record 4 words (of 16 bits) per sample. Also note that we, as well as most other vendors, recommend the use of high-speed CF memory cards for this mode.

I got a PM from Mr Marenius explaining that the 24bit firmware upgrade was added as a direct response to the feedback given here at TS.com.
Kudos to manufacturers who actually listen to the tapers!  I thought it was worth mentioning...

kirkd, if you PM marenius he will be able to give you a quote. Too bad the USD took a dive last week, otherwise it would have been even cheaper.

[marenius]

I'd like to give their two-channel transformer pre a run...


SMF-5
http://www.marenius.se/products/smf5.html

So it looks like that thing would only be $554 can that be true?  And it will run on two 9v akalines, DAMN!  I wonder what shipping is from Sweden?

We´ve actually upgraded the SMF-5 to mkII and the web site should now have correct info on this.
Noise level is reduced another 3 dB(!) and battery supply has been deleted. This mode would slightly reduce performance and we don´t want to compromize on that. Price is now $688 + VAT and freight cost.
Sweden to NYC by UPS is approx. $160 but can be lower for a slower shipping method.

[kirk97132]

Thanks for the feedback Mr. Marenius.  I do appreciate it.  It also looks like the new unit, the SMF-5 to mkII,  is only able to be powered by AC voltage now: "Power supply 2x15 V AC from PSU MASCOT/MARENIUS 8610 230 V (115 V for US version) AC @ 10 VA".  Unless I read it wrong that means it cannot be used in the field with DC power.  It was the quality and features(DC power) of the piece coupled with what looked to be a very reasonable price that had caught my eye.  And with a price that is dangerously close to $1000 US dollars now, I would opt for picking up a Lunatec V-3 for slightly more new, about the same used.   Especially with the features offered and the fact that it has digital output too.   Your preamp looks nice and I bet it sounds good too.  Don't get me wrong I am not shopping to buy one now just making some observations.  Thanks, Kirk

[WiFiJeff]

Good point! But AFAIK, it has only two analog inputs. Plenty of competition in that segment.

The Mini-r82 actually has 4 Analog inputs (MIC/LINE 1-2 and LINE 3-4)

I have had the Sonosax for a couple of years now, running just stereo input mostly through the line-in (3-4) inputs.  Since the world usually works this way, I note that at about the time this was posted I coincidentally begain running four track analog in.  It works really well, and if I ever learn how to mix efficiently (just at the hunt and peck and pray stage now) this  will be the killer app for the MiniR82.

Jeff