Topic: LD vs SD hyper cards?

[HealthCov Chris]

Background: 
I recently posted a thread inquiring about some multi-pattern LD mics as I am potentially interested in getting a pair to go along with my AKG 460s with CK61 caps.  I received lots of thoughtful responses which helped me identify which large diaphragm mics I would consider, if I go that route.  I understand many of the pros and cons of the LD setup and have my reasons for wanting a pair, but not sure if its the way to go now as what I really need is a hypercardioid option.  I am looking for more clarity and detail when recording in boomy venues or when set up far from the stage, and figured getting some multi-pattern LDs would kill two banjo players with one stone.

Essentially, I can pay roughly $600 for a pair of hypercard caps (CK63) for my AKG 460s, or put that money towards a pair of LD multi-pattern mics.  I also realize there are several price points for new and used LD multi-pattern mics that could get me the hypercard option i'm looking for. 

My primary confusion or lack of knowledge here is that I don't know how the hypercard option varies between the SD and LD mics.

Also, is there much difference between the hypercard and supercard caps, as many LD multi-pattern mics have the Supercard and not the Hypercard option?

So to sum this up in a nutshell...I definitely want to add the hypercardioid option to my rig, and I also want the LD option at some point.  But, I don't know of i'm going to get the added detail/clarity from a LD hypercard/supercard that I would get from adding the CK63 to my AKG 460s.  Ultimately, money is an issue and I want a pair of LD multi-pattern mics, but am totally willing to wait if I can expect better performance from the CK63s.  I appreciate all feedback and advice.

[acidjack]

Jon's answer is concise and accurate. My more anecdotal answer would be "the C414 hypercard setting sounds 'not very good' while the CK63 sounds 'good to very good.'"

I don't see it as an apples to apples comparison. As Jon noted, having a 9-pattern mic is its own kind of benefit. But I would not buy a C414 so as to mainly enjoy the hyper setting on it....

[Jammin72]

Get the caps.

LD mics sound excellent but they're not good for taming a boomy room.  I dig 'em for acoustic performances but the diaphragms tend to wobble a bit at amplified shows.  They're not going to clean anything up even running them with the hypercardiod pattern. 

If you're equipping your home studio and want some mics for various purposes I'd say the LD's are worth the investment but for recording PA systems.... not so much.

YMMV.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Buy the ck63's... 

Down the road, buy some ADK TLs...

Terry

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Also, is there much difference between the hypercard and supercard caps, as many LD multi-pattern mics have the Supercard and not the Hypercard option?

I don't know if there's an exacting standard as to what constitutes a hyper- vs. super- cardioid pattern, but the general consensus seems to be that the hyper is a touch narrower, the super a touch wider pattern.  The two tend to be used interchangeably. 

That aside, I'm finding myself agreeing with the other posters in this thread: for your purposes you'd likely be better served with SDC hyper/super capsules.  Much as I love my 414s and have used their hyper pattern on many occasions, they can't compete with the SDC hyper/super capsules I have. 

[Gutbucket]

In terms of pattern shape, I think of a supercardioid as being a one step away from cardioid (tigher in front) with a relatively small reverse-polarity rear lobe.  I think of a hypercardioid as being one step away from figure 8 (wider in front) with a somewhat larger reverse-polarity lobe. 

However, assuming both sound equally good on their own terms, and that both are well behaved with their patterns remaining well defined across the full frequency range of intrest (two large assumptions!) the defining differences for me in choosing one over the other are three-
1) Where the cancellation nulls point (the specific directions in which the microphone is least sensitive)- for a supercard that's somewhere around 125 degrees off-axis, for a hypercardioid it's more like 110 degrees, whereas it's 90 degrees for an 8, and 180 degrees for a cardioid.
2) How even the difference in sensitivity is on average across the entire back hemisphere.  A Supercardioid has a more even distribution across the back hemisphere in aggregate than a cardioid or hypercardioid.  In that way it is somewhat akin to a subcardioid in terms of its collective overall off-axis behavior, even though it is a far tighter, forward-biased pattern.  It provides high on-axis sensitivity with the most even off-axis sensitivity across the rear hemisphere.
3) Hypercardioid maximizes the directivity coefficient above all else, which is the difference in sensitivity between sound arriving on-axis (directly ahead) verses sound arriving from all other directions in aggregate.  It provides the maximum forward sensitivity possible, but at the cost of a rear facing hot-spot which makes for decidedly more pickup from directly behind the microphone than a supercardioid.

Sennheiser's choice of a supercarioid pattern which lies partway between a traditional supercardioid and hypercardioid, so that it provides the same -9.5 dB reduced sensitivity at both 90/270 degrees and 180 degrees off -axis, walks the line between these aspects.  See their explanation here- https://www.bblist.co.uk/pdf/sennheiser/supercard.pdf

[rocksuitcase]

My opinion having a pair of Beyer hypers (M201E- used to own M201B) and owning a pair of 460's with no hyper cap, but running with kindms 414's having used Hyper pattern infrequently, given your main preference in this thread I say go with the ck63 caps.
Aside from that basic opinion, The 414's and other LD's do have great uses, I really like the smooth LD characteristics using Omni patterns, especially outdoors. When we were at Greyfox Bluegrass Festival last year, all three of the major Bluegrass tapers we met owned 414s and Schoeps supercards which they deploy using the 414 Omnis spread wide with the Schoeps Supercards in the middle aimed in DIN or PAS. To be clear, that is an outdoor situation. Taping from a loud rock n roll PA, if you're choosing between well defined LD Omni Hypercardiods response vs well defined AKG SD Hypercardiods I would go Hypers in NORTF or crossed at 110 to reduce the rearward pickup SD.

edited for accuracy-given the below, and given this discussion is about choosing Hypercardiod mics- my edits are in bold next to the strike through original.

[noahbickart]

Please remember that a dual capsule LD microphone's "omni" pattern isn't really an omni, but rather two cardioids back to back.

There are only two kinds of microphones, after all,  pressure-operated (omnidirectional) and pressure-gradient (figure-8).

[rocksuitcase]

Please remember that a dual capsule LD microphone's "omni" pattern isn't really an omni, but rather two cardioids back to back.

There are only two kinds of microphones, after all,  pressure-operated (omnidirectional) and pressure-gradient (figure-8).

Since I explain this stuff often to people, I found this to be a useful cite in explaining the difference between Pressure and Pressure Gradient mics:
http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/may08/articles/technotes.htm

[MakersMarc]

I actually think the 63s are the only decent SD hyper cap outside 41s. Others just sound too thin to me. Do like the TL in hyper mode.

[F.O.Bean]

If going with LD vs SD, I would def go with the SD ck63s too! I agree with what everyone else is saying! Not only does the ck63 sound more consistent, its also MUCH smaller than a 414/LD/etc. Add the fact that you can now get AKG actives/PFAs for your ck63's, and its a clear winner IMO!

It does depend what type of recording you're doing too tho! The 414 hyper would probably sound amazing with acoustic stuff up close! But for PA taping, the ck6x are the winner IMO!

[Chilly Brioschi]

http://www.coutant.org/nakamich/

I've heard fine LD distant recordings, just be sure that the back lobes are:
1) up against the rear wall...
2) open to infinity, such as a ski or pavilion venue

The enemy of the hyper is the strong-ish rear lobe and the hockey-rink, footbal stadium, or echoic club venue where high rear spl are present.

[airbladder]

I am not as educated in all the technical aspects of this as others in this thread.  But I have run three sets of  hypers and like my LD hypers the best.  I have run MBHO KA500, Neumann AK50 and Neumann U89 and the LD 89's are my favorite hands down.  Now granted there is a big difference between these three sets of mics.  But from reading your threads it seems like you want to get a pair of LD mics to mess around with, so just go for it.  You don't need us to help justify it.  I don't understand why so many people seem afraid of running LD mics in the field, I wonder if they have experience with it or are just making assumptions.  For the money they are less expensive than buying SD and all the caps.  So you make one purchase and can run any number of configurations.  For me the size isn't an issue and you are never going to know what you like until you try it yourself.  Go with your gut, don't compromise and if you don't like them just sell them and try something different.         

[goodcooker]

I run my ADK TLs in hyper almost all the time. It's the pattern that sounds best out of the four available. Running them in hyper XY when close to the stage, within 20 feet, gives an eerie, almost being there, surround type sound. It is almost like running Blumlein but with some attenuation at the rear.

I had hypers for my Pelusos - least favorite
I had 63s for my JW mod 460s - favorite, very directional and have that high end sizzle
Ran my friend's mk41s a few times - excellent for boomy rooms and very smooth

[Jammin72]

http://www.coutant.org/nakamich/

I've heard fine LD distant recordings, just be sure that the back lobes are:
1) up against the rear wall...
2) open to infinity, such as a ski or pavilion venue

The enemy of the hyper is the strong-ish rear lobe and the hockey-rink, footbal stadium, or echoic club venue where high rear spl are present.

This is an interesting take.  I've always hated being at the wall because of the inevitable bass slap echo that's created there but the idea of eliminating the rear lobe does make me wonder about using a rear baffle further up in the room.  I wonder what kind of havoc it may or may not play with the rest of the polar pattern.