Topic: Decent portable recorder for nature sounds and quieter ambiences

[Amatsubu]

Hi,

I've been searching these forums for a couple of days but I'm still struggling to make up my mind. I've asked people at Gearslutz and was advised by Ozpeter to ask the TapersSection community for more information. Basically, I want to get into field recording and I'm looking for a field recorder with internal mics good enough to capture nature sounds. From what I've read, the Sony PCM M10 has a very low noise floor and is generally held in high regard around here. However, the placement of its omni mics results in a somewhat lackluster stereo image. I do not exclude the possibility od using external microphones somewhere down the road, which might also be a problem because the M10 doesn't have any XLR inputs (I don't want to buy external preamps). Ozpeter suggested that I should get the M10 and add a pair of Roland CS-10 binaurals which are PiP-powered. I think it's a good solution but are there any other recorders which would rival the quality of the M10's internal mics but with XLR inputs and decent preamps? Seemingly, the only options worth considering are the Roland R-26, the Olympus LS-100 and the Zoom H6... I can strech and buy one of these if they'll provide decent results on their own (at least until I can afford good external mics). All of them have some annoying quirks but what matters the most is the quality od the internals. Is the H6 a step-up from the rest of the Zooms or is it still noisy? I'm sorry for bothering you, I'm sure you're all fed up with such threads but all the available options make my head spin... I genuinely don't know which recorder and which mic to buy. Thanks in advance.

[dogmusic]

Hi,

I've been searching these forums for a couple of days but I'm still struggling to make up my mind. I've asked people at Gearslutz and was advised by Ozpeter to ask the TapersSection community for more information. Basically, I want to get into field recording and I'm looking for a field recorder with internal mics good enough to capture nature sounds. From what I've read, the Sony PCM M10 has a very low noise floor and is generally held in high regard around here. However, the placement of its omni mics results in a somewhat lackluster stereo image. I do not exclude the possibility od using external microphones somewhere down the road, which might also be a problem because the M10 doesn't have any XLR inputs (I don't want to buy external preamps). Ozpeter suggested that I should get the M10 and add a pair of Roland CS-10 binaurals which are PiP-powered. I think it's a good solution but are there any other recorders which would rival the quality of the M10's internal mics but with XLR inputs and decent preamps? Seemingly, the only options worth considering are the Roland R-26, the Olympus LS-100 and the Zoom H6... I can strech and buy one of these if they'll provide decent results on their own (at least until I can afford good external mics). All of them have some annoying quirks but what matters the most is the quality od the internals. Is the H6 a step-up from the rest of the Zooms or is it still noisy? I'm sorry for bothering you, I'm sure you're all fed up with such threads but all the available options make my head spin... I genuinely don't know which recorder and which mic to buy. Thanks in advance.

Not sure what your budget is, but you should check out the new (yet-to-be-released in the West) SONY PCM-D100 which, based on recordings found on the web, seems to have superb internal microphones. It also records at high quality PCM 24/192 and DSD 2.8 formats.

It does not have XLR inputs, so if you want those, I would guess people on the forum will point you to the Sound Devices or Marantz recorders.

You can make extremely good recordings with PIP mics into the M10. You can also purchase very small preamps from people who make them here on the forum that will enable you to use better mics. Once you're out in the field with bigger hand-held or mounted microphones, it's not really such a problem to add a small preamp in your pocket or bag.

[Amatsubu]

Thanks! I'd love to get a D100 but I'm sure it'll bear a bonkers price tag when it launches in Poland. Might be around 4000 zl, which is a lot. My budget allows me either to get the M10 with binaurals or to buy one of the mentioned recorders and expand their capabilities with external mics later. I'd really love to buy an M10 + Usbpre2 + ext mics and all the fancy gear but I simply cannot afford it. It's a shame that Sony discontinued the D50.

[flipp]

While it has been out for a few years, check out the Fostex FR-2LE. Very low noise floor and pretty good pres, decent internal omni mics, XLR -1/4TRS combo inputs, on-board P48 for external mics; can be had used for $250 and up if you wait and watch. One currently on ebay for $250 that has been relisted twice, each time with a lower opening bid. Seller lists Poland as a country he will ship to.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141169191063

[earmonger]

There's a whole email forum called Nature Recordists that can probably give you very specific tips.

http://www.naturesongs.com/naturerecordists.html

For what it's worth, I recorded an interview outdoors with the PCM-M10 internals, sitting on a hillside, and the birds came through quite nicely. But the levels were set for the conversation, so I wasn't cranking it up to get the birds alone, which might reveal more self-noise.

Ozpeter is a real expert and I have great respect for him, but I disagree with him about his strong dislike of the PCM-M10's stereo image. Omni or not, there is definitely a stereo image through the internals. You could, if you wish, put a little baffle between them when you record to increase the sense of separation.  There are also stereo widening effects you can use in post-processing, even with a freebie like Audacity.

http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=71707

And if you want a Sony D-50 you can still find them for around $400 on eBay--don't know what the circumstances are with eBay in Poland, but its US version recently made international shipping a whole lot easier.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR3.TRC2.A0.Xsony+d-50&_nkw=sony+d-50&_sacat=0&_from=R40

[Chimney Top]

While it has been out for a few years, check out the Fostex FR-2LE. Very low noise floor and pretty good pres, decent internal omni mics, XLR -1/4TRS combo inputs, on-board P48 for external mics; can be had used for $250 and up if you wait and watch. One currently on ebay for $250 that has been relisted twice, each time with a lower opening bid. Seller lists Poland as a country he will ship to.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141169191063

FR-2LE is a good recorder, but the internal mic's are awful.  The Roland R26 mic's are very good.  I haven't used the LS-100, but it may be a good choice to use internal mic's and it has XLR inputs for potentially using external mic's.

[Chimney Top]

Here is a list for reference (from a thread I started about a year ago).


2 Channels:

(Handheld/Pocket Size)

Tascam DR-100 (XLR/3.5mm)
Tascam DR-100 mkII (XLR/3.5mm/digital)
Marantz PMD 660/661 (XLR)
Marantz PMD 620 (3.5mm)
Edirol R-05 (handheld, 2 channel (3.5mm)
Edirol R09/R09H (handheld, 2 ch, 3.5mm) - discontinued
Sony M10 (handheld, 2 channel (3.5mm)
Sony PCM-100
Pyle Pro PPR80 (3.5mm)
Ikey Audio M3 (3.5mm)
Olympus LS-10/LS-10S/LS-11/LS-20m (audio and video)/LS-12/LS-14 (3.5mm)
Olympus LS-100 (XLR/TRS/3.5mm - 2 ch simultaneous recording, multitrack editing)
Tascam DR-40 (XLR/TRS, no 1/8" input)
Tascam DRV1-HD (audio - 3.5mm, and video)/DR-05/DR-03 (3.5mm)
Nagra SD (XLR adapter), Ares, Lino, Pico (3.5mm)
Sony PCM-50 (3.5mm/digital)
Korg MR-1, Korg MR-2 (SD 1-bit, 3.5mm)


(Larger Size)

Marantz PMD 670/671 (XLR, 3.5mm/digital)
Fostex FR-2
Fostex FR-2LE (XLR/TRS)
Tascam HDP2
Korg MR-1000
Sound Devices 702/702t/722
Nagra VI/LB




More than 2 channels:

(Handheld/Pocket Size)

Zoom h4/h4n (XLR/3.5mm - 4 ch)
Roland R-26 (4 external ch: XLR/TRS combo input and 3.5mm, 6 total ch)
Tascam DR-2d (handheld, 4 channels (both inputs 3.5mm)
Zoom H6


(Larger Size)

Tascam HSP82 (8 ch)
Sound Devices 744 (4 ch)
Sound Devices 788 (8 ch)
Sound Devices 633 (6 ch)
Edirol R4 (4 ch)
Edirol R44 (4 ch)
Tascam DR-680 (6 ch)
Cymatec LR-16 (TRS, 16 ch)
Aeta 4MinX (4 ch)
Fostex DCR302 (3 ch)
Sound Devices 664 (6 ch)
Roland R-88 (8 ch)


IOS Recording Devices:
Tascam IXJ2
Apogee One/Duet/Quartet IOS (XLR/TRS)
Fostex AR4i

[Amatsubu]

Thanks for your help:)

There's a whole email forum called Nature Recordists that can probably give you very specific tips.

http://www.naturesongs.com/naturerecordists.html

For what it's worth, I recorded an interview outdoors with the PCM-M10 internals, sitting on a hillside, and the birds came through quite nicely. But the levels were set for the conversation, so I wasn't cranking it up to get the birds alone, which might reveal more self-noise.

Ozpeter is a real expert and I have great respect for him, but I disagree with him about his strong dislike of the PCM-M10's stereo image. Omni or not, there is definitely a stereo image through the internals. You could, if you wish, put a little baffle between them when you record to increase the sense of separation.  There are also stereo widening effects you can use in post-processing, even with a freebie like Audacity.

http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=71707

And if you want a Sony D-50 you can still find them for around $400 on eBay--don't know what the circumstances are with eBay in Poland, but its US version recently made international shipping a whole lot easier.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR3.TRC2.A0.Xsony+d-50&_nkw=sony+d-50&_sacat=0&_from=R40

I've checked eBay a couple of days ago but the prices are a bit high for a used product without a valid warranty. There's no problem with shipment to Poland but there are problems with additional taxes. By buying anything for over $100 from the US you risk having to pay a substantial customs fee. It might happen or it might not happen but the risk's still there. I'm a bit afraid to pull the trigger, especially that a used D50 is already a tad more expensive than a new H6, even without factoring in the customs fee.

About the M10's stereo image, Ozpeter gave me a link to a VST which can widen it a bit and unclutter the low-end. There definitely is a certain degree of stereo imaging (it has to be;p), I guess it's just not pronounced enough to be satisfactory for him. The M10 might be a solid choice, with the dedicated windscreen (expensive;/) it should cost me about the same as the Zoom H4n. With binaurals, the price should be somewhere around the H6 or the LS-100. Maybe someone will share their opinions about the other recorders?

[dogmusic]

Here is a link to a recording I made last summer with my M10 using internal mics (level set at 4.0, 24/96). The M10 was sitting on the railing of my front porch. This may give you an idea of the stereo spread (or lack of it).

There is a very loud moment at 02:17 when a small plane flies overhead. Again, at 04:46, when some birds take off, it gets a little loud.

https://app.box.com/s/21pwlgbeei5vlb6qcn04

[dogmusic]

Here is another part of the same recording. None of the parameters have changed.

A train goes by, and the M10 does a good job of capturing the low rumble from these trains, vibrating through the bedrock (Canadian Shield) under this area.

https://app.box.com/s/cojxc2jcf0e5yrij5yn8

[2manyrocks]

Thanks for your help:)



 The M10 might be a solid choice, with the dedicated windscreen (expensive;/)

Check the Retail Section below for Dead Muppets priced affordably. 

[John Willett]

While it has been out for a few years, check out the Fostex FR-2LE. Very low noise floor and pretty good pres, decent internal omni mics, XLR -1/4TRS combo inputs, on-board P48 for external mics; can be had used for $250 and up if you wait and watch. One currently on ebay for $250 that has been relisted twice, each time with a lower opening bid. Seller lists Poland as a country he will ship to.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141169191063

FR-2LE is a good recorder, but the internal mic's are awful.  The Roland R26 mic's are very good.  I haven't used the LS-100, but it may be a good choice to use internal mic's and it has XLR inputs for potentially using external mic's.

The FR-2LE's internal mivcs were not designed to be used for recording, rather as emergency note-takers.  It was designed to be used with external mics, which it does superbly.

It's batter than virtually all of the pocket machines.

[Gutbucket]

Omni or not, there is definitely a stereo image through the internals. You could, if you wish, put a little baffle between them when you record to increase the sense of separation.

Rigging up some sort of baffle between the mics is likely to be the most most significant improvement you can make when recording nature and ambiences with the internal omni mics built into any small recorder.  Here's a link to a tread with some photos I posted years ago about doing that with the original R-09 was released (which did not have very good built-in omnis, yet the mic/line inputs were good).  I suspect the omnis built into the M-10 are significantly better than those in the R-09 and would work nicely this way. 









Assuming the omnis mics themselves are of decent quality and the noise floor of the mics and recorder is low enough, omnis are in general an excellent choice for this sort of application, and baffle seperated omnis a prefered setup.  The primary problem with built-in opmnis is that they are too close together to work well as an unbaffled A-B spaced pair given the small dimentions of the recorder.  Introducing a baffle between them corrects for that design problem.

[Amatsubu]

Thank you all!

Here is another part of the same recording. None of the parameters have changed.

A train goes by, and the M10 does a good job of capturing the low rumble from these trains, vibrating through the bedrock (Canadian Shield) under this area.

https://app.box.com/s/cojxc2jcf0e5yrij5yn8

Thanks for the effort! It seems that the self-noise of the M10 is low enough. The stereo imaging is not brilliant but it's there;p

Omni or not, there is definitely a stereo image through the internals. You could, if you wish, put a little baffle between them when you record to increase the sense of separation.

Rigging up some sort of baffle between the mics is likely to be the most most significant improvement you can make when recording nature and ambiences with the internal omni mics built into any small recorder.  Here's a link to a tread with some photos I posted years ago about doing that with the original R-09 was released (which did not have very good built-in omnis, yet the mic/line inputs were good).  I suspect the omnis built into the M-10 are significantly better than those in the R-09 and would work nicely this way. 









Assuming the omnis mics themselves are of decent quality and the noise floor of the mics and recorder is low enough, omnis are in general an excellent choice for this sort of application, and baffle seperated omnis a prefered setup.  The primary problem with built-in opmnis is that they are too close together to work well as an unbaffled A-B spaced pair given the small dimentions of the recorder.  Introducing a baffle between them corrects for that design problem.

Thanks for the tip! Do you think that placing binaural mics in reasonable distance from each other (e.g. by attaching them to some sort of DIY poles) would also yield decent results? I know this is not exactly the "proper" way of doing binaural recordings but it might be interesting.

[Amir]

Based on your budget, I suggest that you take a closer look at Zoom H6. Its internal XY mic is really good (definitely superior to that of the LS-100 or the Roland model you mentioned), and its preamps are also good for XLR mics -- again better than those of the LS-100. People say that the internals of the Zoom H6 are similar to those of the D50. Also, unlike the D50, The H6 offers 4 XLR inputs. As someone who owns the M10, I don't like its stereo separation either -- it's good as long as your sound source is near the recorder. The more that moves away, the more mono-like your recording becomes. Also, the M10's audio quality is a bit dark and muffled -- I prefer the D50/H6 mics.
All that said, the D100 is a definite step-up from all of those recorders when it comes to internal mics and the quality of the recorder itself.