Topic: M10, CA-14, 9200 Preamp Combo - Reduce muddiness tips?

[RoganSarine]

Do you have any tips for reducing muddiness?

I generally record rock shows, use anXY ORTF Mic Setup, keep the mics about 15 cm apart, boom the mic above everyones head, always use line-in and try to get as close to the equilateral triangle as possible. Unfortunately, I'm still running into a drowned out vocalist more frequently than I'd like.

Sony PCM settings:
Low Mic Sensitivity
LCF Off
4dB gain, with 9200 doing the rest
9200 has HPF off

Does using preamp gain instead of the M10's gain reduce the audiowaves detail in rock shows?

It's not like the venue sounds like garbage. I use stereophonic earplugs molded to my ear that reduce the spectrum by -20dB, and it sounds fine and balanced, but the mics rarely agree with me.

Is there a way to bring out the vocalists with my setup? Or can I do it in post? Recommendations?

The reason I ask is because my 11's got me way better recordings than my 14's

I have attached the waveforms I usually get. They look brickwalled, but I dunno.

[acidjack]

- Stop using XY; try DIN or try pointing the mics at the stacks.  IMHO other than ideal situations, XY just sounds bad.  YMMV.
- be sure your position is optimal (centered, ideally forward of the board, etc.)
- Use cards instead of omnis
- Familiarize yourself with your DAW software and learn to post-process what you don't like.

Remember, it's easier to take out something that's there than to put in something that's not.  "Muddiness" is in the eye of the beholder and the playback system; a better mic will pick up a wider range of sound.  The CA-14 is superior to the CA-11 in every way, but especially in the amount of bass it picks up.

If you just hear a lot of undefined, muddy bass, what are you listening on?  If you are using a modest playback system, it may not take full advantage of what the mics are getting. Case in point - listen to any raw recording made with my DPA or Schoeps (or any other HQ full frequency range mic) on iPhone headphones or another weak system - it will sound pretty bad, or at least "muddy".  On a quality system, it sounds amazing. 

I would suggest trying some mild EQ first, but again, keeping a very light touch.  What to you sounds like mud may to others sound like gold ))

[RoganSarine]

My muddiness definition comes from the fact that ever since I switched to this setup, I've never got well-defined vocals. I just can't figure out why.

Like, I was wondering if it was a M10 setting problem (high/low mic sensitivity toggle, HPF toggle)

I'll switch back to DIN and try that, but I'm just so confused as I keep fiddling, but it only gets worse.

Curiously, if I uploaded a sample, do you think you could get a better idea of what Im messing up on or give recommendations on how I could "save" what's there? I've been hit and miss for 6 months since I got these CA-14's when I've never had a problem with the CA-11's.

Also, I realized I meant ORTF, not XY

[acidjack]

Line-in is the way to go, as you're doing.

Again, what I think you are perceiving as "buried" vocals is just a fuller frequency range being picked up.  Concerts have overwhelmingly high low end.  If you run mics that chop that low end off, like CA-11s, you get "clearer" vocals because the mic is in effect ignoring that low end.  With a fuller-range mic, you pick up all that other stuff you weren't getting before. On a good playback system, that should be fine. 

That said, I also wouldn't recommend ORTF unless you are up REALLY close.  It's a great setup for certain situations - I like it when I'm maybe 15-25 ft from stage in a smallish place, or outdoors - but as you can already figure out, having your mics pointed outward at 110 degrees is going to massively increase the reflections you get off of room walls and other surfaces.  Again, with a mic that is fairly accurate, that equates to what a lot of people hear as "mud". 

I would again recommend pointing your mics at the stacks or something tighter, and playing around with the EQ.  I am pretty much 100% confident you do not have a problem with your deck settings, at least given what you describe.

[RoganSarine]

I usually mix on z5500's and playback the final mix on KEFs. So, I'll play with it a little more when I get home.

I'll play around with the EQ a bit, but Im not entirely sure how I would, assuming it is the full spectrum, play with it to make it more appreciable for most devices (studio headphones). Would you have any tips on that?

I'll upload a clip when I get home in a couple hours just incase this is the issue and maybe get some pointers with these CA-14's. I might try to roll off some bass frequencies when I get home, but I wouldn't want to damage the overall dynamics if it was full spec.

There's a concert in June that I'm hoping to get a good tape of and I've gotten to the point where my experimentation has been hitting walls of disappointment.

[bryonsos]

I usually mix on z5500's and playback the final mix on KEFs. So, I'll play with it a little more when I get home.

I'll play around with the EQ a bit, but Im not entirely sure how I would, assuming it is the full spectrum, play with it to make it more appreciable for most devices (studio headphones). Would you have any tips on that?

I'll upload a clip when I get home in a couple hours just incase this is the issue and maybe get some pointers with these CA-14's. I might try to roll off some bass frequencies when I get home, but I wouldn't want to damage the overall dynamics if it was full spec.

There's a concert in June that I'm hoping to get a good tape of and I've gotten to the point where my experimentation has been hitting walls of disappointment.

Yes! We all have different playback rigs, so what sounds muddy on yours may sound like gold on another's.

If your next "important" show isn't until June, why not practice a few times at shows you don't care as much about?

[RoganSarine]

Yes! We all have different playback rigs, so what sounds muddy on yours may sound like gold on another's.

If your next "important" show isn't until June, why not practice a few times at shows you don't care as much about?

My main reason I don't think practicing will be the best is because I have trying to practice for 6 months. I feel like Im constantly just fighting my CA-14's unlike my CA-11's. It's gotten to the point where I feel I need some direction instead of continuing to bash my head against a wall.

So, Im wondering... here's a sample as promised:
[removed]

As you may or may not be able to see, it's very "muddy" - the vocals get constantly drowned out despite not being so in the venue. Can this track be "saved" through EQ? If so, any recommendations?

I've tried on countless tracks, but I just can't "get" it. If it's any consolidation, the wave form is also very flat and compressed, unlike before (which would, theoretically, be explained by a larger spectrum again... but how can I "fix" this so it can be listened to more pleasurably?)

[bryonsos]

I just listened to this with iPad -> Sony 7506 headphones, so nothing fancy. First off, this sounds pretty darn good to me! Good dynamic range, and the vocals didn't sound muddy to my ears. Two observations, there were points where it did sound a bit "saturated" at times,  but I'm guessing that's the mix, not your recording. To be safe, where were your levels peaking? On my M10, I get good results in the -12 to -6 range with the deck levels set at 4.5 and the pre doing the work (like you). Also, there seems to be some phasing, were you near a vent or fan? If not, I'd blame the mix again. Secondly, are you using some sort of bass boost on your playback system? If so, turn it off and listen again. Bass boost is often a tape killer! Hope that helps!

[RoganSarine]

I just listened to this with iPad -> Sony 7506 headphones, so nothing fancy. First off, this sounds pretty darn good to me! Good dynamic range, and the vocals didn't sound muddy to my ears. Two observations, there were points where it did sound a bit "saturated" at times,  but I'm guessing that's the mix, not your recording. To be safe, where were your levels peaking? On my M10, I get good results in the -12 to -6 range with the deck levels set at 4.5 and the pre doing the work (like you). Also, there seems to be some phasing, were you near a vent or fan? If not, I'd blame the mix again. Secondly, are you using some sort of bass boost on your playback system? If so, turn it off and listen again. Bass boost is often a tape killer! Hope that helps!

I havn't done any post processing. There was no vent or fan. There was nothing blocking the mics from the speakers.

Now, my curiousity is peaked because my friend can't understand anything because it sounds like noise, I can hear the vocals... but I have to stress to understand them, and you hear it fine.

Is there anyway to keep consistency with this? I like uploading these tapes to YouTube, so if you need a very specific setup to hear, that would be unofortunate. Like, I love the instrumentals. I think they sound amazing, but I can never hear the singer with any clarity or consistency.

I guess I could try for getting a SBD vocal feed and mic with the CA-14's, but that'd run me another M10.

[achalsey]

Did you by chance have the "rec level" on the M10 set to "auto" by mistake instead of "manual?"  It's the switch behind the power switch.  Not actually sure how that would affect it but definitely not something you want on "auto."

I agree with pretty much everything acidjack said.  There's really no reason the -14s should be giving you so much trouble when it sounds like your -11s were a breeze to use.  Try a narrower pattern.  I used the CA14s for a year and pretty much never ran anything but DIN unless way off to the side so had them pointed at the stacks, and almost never got a recording I wasn't happy with.

Unfortunately as relatively great as they are, they're still inexpensive mics, so I have noticed that they are not incredibly detailed when listening critically.  I haven't heard the -11s and can't seem to play your sample, but like acidjack pointed out you might just be getting a fuller bass from the wider spectrum the -14s pick up and since you're playback is relatively good it accentuates the lack of accuracy inexpensive mics have.

Also, especially using inexpensive mics I would definitely look into another recorder to get SBD patches if they are available to you.

If you want to compare some sources see how different (better/worse) here are some of mine with just the CA14 > 9100 I've made:

http://www.archive.org/details/RMB2010-11-06.flac16 (not too loud but probably pretty similar situation you record in)
http://www.archive.org/details/stereof2011-03-31.CA14.flac16 (same situation as above)
http://www.archive.org/details/hotclubofcowtown2010-11-30 (seated show so the crowd was very good)
http://www.archive.org/details/GPN2011-05-19.CA14.flac16 (outdoors)
http://www.archive.org/details/phunclesam2011-08-04.CA14.flac16 (onstage XY)
http://www.archive.org/details/jcm2011-08-07.CA14.flac16 (onstage XY jazz quartet, not probably too similar recording situation but I really like this recording)

[anr]

The most obvious thing from the sample is it is hard limited to -6dB, which probably means you have the Limiter on in the M10. 

The response is pretty flat with a pronounced peak at 76Hz.  Reduce that a little to hear the vocals.  That's where I'd start.   

[bryonsos]

The most obvious thing from the sample is it is hard limited to -6dB, which probably means you have the Limiter on in the M10. 

I didn't look at the waveform. This is almost certainly the "saturation" I heard. If you have been using the limiter, try turning it off and setting levels as I described above. With 24 bit, it's much better to have lower levels and bring things up in post.

Now, my curiousity is peaked because my friend can't understand anything because it sounds like noise, I can hear the vocals... but I have to stress to understand them, and you hear it fine.

Is there anyway to keep consistency with this?

The playback question is hard to grapple. I use headphones while I do editing, others use studio monitors etc. Whichever is used for editing, it's a safe bet that for most people who download it, they will just want mp3s or stream it on their computer (aka not high fidelity). It's then a question of figuring out what sounds good in both scenarios. When you figure that out, let me know, I could use some pointers 

I havn't done any post processing.

When I asked about bass boost, I was asking about playback on your stereo, not post processing. Bass boost introduces "mud" IMHO, so if yours is turned on, try listening with it turned off.

[Belexes]

I run CA-14 (c) > 9100 > M10 most of the time and I do use a bit of EQ in post to bring up the high frequencies. The CA-14's are great mics, but I think they need a little help in post to bring out the best in them.

[RoganSarine]

The most obvious thing from the sample is it is hard limited to -6dB, which probably means you have the Limiter on in the M10. 

The response is pretty flat with a pronounced peak at 76Hz.  Reduce that a little to hear the vocals.  That's where I'd start.   

That's the thing - I've never recorded with a limiter since I've gotten my CA-11's. The waveform, for whatever reason with my CA-14's, just turns out flat like that - like it WAS limited. To me, the waveform looks off because of how flat it is dynamically.

I have attached an example of the wave forms I normally get. The left is zoomed out, and the right is zoomed in. I always set my average sound to -12dB, and try to make it peak at around -6dB. I also use 24Bit 96kHz wav.

Does the picture look off to what should be gotten? Every sample I see from others has vocals that cut through and sound great like I had with my CA-11's... but never with my CA-14's.

For example, this is a tape I did over a year ago with my CA-11's: [removed]

I think I might try a SBD vocal feed and see if I can mix that into the mix well.

When I asked about bass boost, I was asking about playback on your stereo, not post processing. Bass boost introduces "mud" IMHO, so if yours is turned on, try listening with it turned off.

Sorry, I meant that. There is no effects set on my computer, and I generally mix with sennheiser HD595's.

[yousef]

Just thinking (sort of) laterally for a moment - if you prefer the sound of the CA-11s, why not stick with them?

We've all got different preferences and perhaps you just prefer that particular sound.