Topic: Newbie question about recording level

[Denny21]

Good morning,
I am just entering in the taping world.
I bought a Tascam DR 05, I would like some advice on how set it to avoid distorted sound.
On the Tascam site is reported that DR 05 is suitable for environments with 125dB SPL.
Can anyone help me set the low-cut filters and the automatic level control (Peak Reduction, Auto Level, Limiter) please?
Usually I go to very loud concerts.
Thank you

[acidjack]

- Do not use auto level control
- Do not use low cut filter
- Anything else that promises to automatically do something, turn it off.

Likely, the Tascam will distort at a loud rock concert no matter what, if you are using internal mics.  That rated SPL is almost certainly not an accurate spec.  Most of these manufacturers publish absurd specs on their internals that have no correlation to reality.

That said, to have any hope, set the mic sensitivity to "LOW" if such a setting exists, and then set your levels so that you are peaking at or just above -12dB

I strongly recommend looking into some small external mics from The Sound Professionals (www.soundprofessionals.com) or Church Audio (see "Retail Space")

[George]

and check the yardsale for used gear being sold by our members. 

[pontiacb]

I agree with everything acidjack says, although assuming the internals on the DR05 are similar to those on the DR07, I think you can get away with pretty loud stuff with the internals without risk of distortion based on my experiences using the DR07 as my back up recorder when stack taping.  Having said that, the recommendation to look at some external mics from Church or SPs is something I'd endorse, but I'd give it a go with the internals and the settings acidjack suggests and see how you get on. 

[Denny21]

Thanks all for the replys.
I can set the microphone to "low".
However, I can use auto peak reduction to set levels or I have only to set -12db?
May I cover the recorder with a stocking for disguise it?

[acidjack]

Thanks all for the replys.
I can set the microphone to "low".
However, I can use auto peak reduction to set levels or I have only to set -12db?
May I cover the recorder with a stocking for disguise it?

Acoustically transparent material probably won't affect the sound, but you want the recorder as high as possible above the heads of other folks to get the best recording.  Yet another reason to use external mics, since I'm sure putting one of these recorders on your head is kind of difficult.

Do not use auto peak reduction. That stuff is for recording speech, not music.  Set your levels conservatively so that they peak around -12dB.  Set the mic sensitivity to "low".

The SP-CMC-2 (aka AT831b) mics from Sound Professionals are one solid way to go.http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-2

[Denny21]

Many thanks for the tips.
I will not buy the microphones because I have low budget for now. I'll upgrade later.
I did some tests with my hi-fi at home and I reach the peak easily at loud volume.
I've listen the recordings and the sound isn't distorted.
I have searched in menu and I can't set the microphone sensibilty to low.

Please check my image, I set this level to 0.
Is the right setting?

[pontiacb]

I just had a quick scan through the manual on line and it doesn't look like there is a mic sensitivity setting - on a lot of recorders there is and in those instances best to set to low for loud shows.

However loud your HiFi is at home it will be a fair bit louder at a rock show if you are anywhere near the stacks, so set the recording levels conservatively to start with at your first show, you don't want peaks going over the 0dB threshold, better to be a bit under ideal levels than over as you can always boost in post production using your sound editing software.  So if you were peaking at 0dB with your HIFi you certainly want to lower the recording level a fair bit (p49 of the manual tells you how to do this if you haven't already worked it out)

As acidjack said somewhere around -12dB is about right.   After you've used the recorder a couple of times you'll know exactly what recording volume to set it at from experience, but with any new recorder it takes a bit of getting used to.  And save for some external mics in the long term as they will get you better recordings, but you can get something decent with what you've got if you position yourself correctly and have a bit of luck.

Good luck!

[TimeBandit]

I just kept the gain at Zero (so no gain).

i tested the CA-11 mics into mic in with PIP and on moderate amplified shows i get nice levels around -10

For VERY LOUD shows i still opt in for a battery box (+ tascam still set to 0), and for very quiet the Ca9100 and dial in the gain on the ca9100.

[oreo]

Everyone raves about these battery boxes .I used my sony m-10 with
CA-14 cards into mic in and no BB or 9100 and it sounds like i was plugged into the soundboard .
100% True ! JMHO Done the same with my tascam DR-05

[aaronji]

Everyone raves about these battery boxes .I used my sony m-10 with
CA-14 cards into mic in and no BB or 9100 and it sounds like i was plugged into the soundboard .
100% True ! JMHO Done the same with my tascam DR-05

Well, that sucks.  Maybe next time it will turn out better...

As for the battery box, the plug-in power for the M10 (and the Tascam) is good enough for some mics, some of the time.  Other models may need more juice, especially at higher SPLs.  The way I look at it, a battery box is cheap and small insurance to help ensure that you don't overload your mics.  Church has said in the past that CA14s need more voltage than the M10 puts out at higher SPLs...

[Denny21]

  So if you were peaking at 0dB with your HIFi you certainly want to lower the recording level a fair bit (p49 of the manual tells you how to do this if you haven't already worked it out)

As acidjack said somewhere around -12dB is about right.   After you've used the recorder a couple of times you'll know exactly what recording volume to set it at from experience, but with any new recorder it takes a bit of getting used to.  And save for some external mics in the long term as they will get you better recordings, but you can get something decent with what you've got if you position yourself correctly and have a bit of luck.

Good luck!

Of course, I have read the manual, but I dont' find the way to set the recording level under 0 db.

[newplanet7]

Everyone raves about these battery boxes .I used my sony m-10 with
CA-14 cards into mic in and no BB or 9100 and it sounds like i was plugged into the soundboard .
100% True ! JMHO Done the same with my tascam DR-05

Easy bro. You have self admittedly taped one show.
Sure you can under power your mics and get passable results. But for consistency
that's why they make batt boxes.

[acidjack]

^^^ Truth.

Man, this thread depresses me 

[oreo]

cant win going against the norm . Yea , it really sucks getting
good sounding shows without all that extra money spent on
equip you may , may not need . and im up to 32 shows now .
Not aBB or pre on 1 .All really good " live "sounding .

[Marshall7]

How about you give us some links so we can check out your greatness for ourselves?  After all, you obviously are a far better taper than everyone else here. 

[DSatz]

Hi. I would just like to present a viewpoint which I would never have thought of as controversial before I came to this board: If you can record without overloading anything, the ideal in fact is to get your signals to peak as close to 0 dB as you can get without actually reaching 0 dB--rather than the -12 dB that several people have mentioned in this thread.

It's one thing to aim for a higher peak level and end up with your peaks down at -12; that can happen, and for a hobbyist recording it's usually no tragedy. That's because at this point in the development of audio technology, our recording equipment has a considerably wider dynamic range than much of the material that many of us have the opportunity to record.

For example, if you're in a venue with a noise floor of 40 dB SPL and the peak SPL of the program material is 110 dB, then the difference is 70 dB. So it only takes 80 dB dynamic range (10 dB greater than the distance from the noise floor to the peak SPL) to capture that sound with no audible noise contribution whatsoever from the recording equipment. In that example situation, a peak level of -12 dB, even on a 16-bit recorder with a dynamic range of 90+ dB, would be adequate (and incidentally there would be no advantage whatsoever in recording 24-bit in this example, either).

But assuming that you have competently designed equipment that is appropriately chosen in terms of sensitivity and overload margins and used correctly, nothing whatsoever is gained by setting the peak recording levels low on purpose. All that's happening is that (in the example I gave) you can afford to throw away those 12 dB because the full dynamic range of 16-bit recording is enormous, and because the venue is as noisy as it is.

In other situations, however, you would not be able to afford it, i.e. some of those 12 dB will turn up as audible noise in the recording.

--best regards

[adrianf74]

I'll agree with what DSatz is saying.  In the digital world, I've always tried to go "as loud" as I can figuring peaks around -6dB and average audio around -8dB/-10dB.  I still have headroom and my levels are where they need to be.

Of course, this runs a risk if levels get cranked but I've noticed most shows have levels that are heavily compressed so the likelihood of going over is pretty close to nil (for me).  Again, this assumes pop/rock. 

[Church-Audio]

Everyone raves about these battery boxes .I used my sony m-10 with
CA-14 cards into mic in and no BB or 9100 and it sounds like i was plugged into the soundboard .
100% True ! JMHO Done the same with my tascam DR-05

The reason why you need a battery box with my mics is simple.. They are designed to work with 9volts of plug in power and not 4 voltyressure. Now unless you have a db meter and can measure how loud the show is at any given time you will never know when you will get distortion from overload until you get home and listen to the play back its for that reason I make the battery box available for $29 so that customers can at least be able to get a simple battery box to avoid this situation.

My mics are designed to have a distortion of 0.2% THD at 114db at 1k @ 9 volts. That is the spec, of all my mics. So you will never know when you are in a situation where you will get overload until its too late. When you lower the voltage to the mics that 114db at 0.2% THD goes out the window and the distortion figure goes much higher.

Please if you want to use my mics I don't care who you buy a battery box from but every time you go out, use one. Because it would be a shame to waste a perfectly good recording. Sometimes when the sound pressure levels are low its not an issue but that is not always the case and you have no way of predicting it.

Chris Church

[F.O.Bean]

Everyone raves about these battery boxes .I used my sony m-10 with
CA-14 cards into mic in and no BB or 9100 and it sounds like i was plugged into the soundboard .
100% True ! JMHO Done the same with my tascam DR-05

The reason why you need a battery box with my mics is simple.. They are designed to work with 9volts of plug in power and not 4 voltyressure. Now unless you have a db meter and can measure how loud the show is at any given time you will never know when you will get distortion from overload until you get home and listen to the play back its for that reason I make the battery box available for $29 so that customers can at least be able to get a simple battery box to avoid this situation.

My mics are designed to have a distortion of 0.2% THD at 114db at 1k @ 9 volts. That is the spec, of all my mics. So you will never know when you are in a situation where you will get overload until its too late. When you lower the voltage to the mics that 114db at 0.2% THD goes out the window and the distortion figure goes much higher.

Please if you want to use my mics I don't care who you buy a battery box from but every time you go out, use one. Because it would be a shame to waste a perfectly good recording. Sometimes when the sound pressure levels are low its not an issue but that is not always the case and you have no way of predicting it.

Chris Church

But he recorded 32 shows without one. Obviously he knows more than we do

[Gutbucket]

I've always tried to go "as loud" as I can figuring peaks around -6dB and average audio around -8dB/-10dB.  I still have headroom and my levels are where they need to be.

The relationship between peak level and average level is referred to as crest factor, and varies greatly with the type of material and the recording position.  Dense music, usually 'constantly loud' music, and the output of highly compressed and peak limited PA system will have a relatively low crest factor that may be similar to the numbers stated above.  More sparse music, acoustic music, transient-rich material like drums, and especially close microphone placement to the sources (such as recording on-stage in close proximity to a drum kit) will have a far higher crest factor and will require more headroom to accommodate that difference between peak and average level without reaching 0dBfs and clipping.

I recorded an organ trio last night with the mics about 2' in front of the centrally positioned drum kit and the difference between peak and average level while they were playing was more than 16dB, so to avoid clipping I needed to set input levels 12dB lower than what would be required for the example above with a difference of just 4dB.

To take full advantage of the dynamic range of the recording system we want to peak as close to 0dBfs as possible with out going over.   Since we don't know exactly how high the biggest peak will be, we are wise to set gain lower than it would be in the perfect case.  The real question becomes, “how much lower is safe” without setting it so low that the noise floor of the recording system becomes the bigger problem.

[TimeBandit]

now i taped lot of shows with the CA-11 straight into the DR-05 with no battery box. as long its not Heavy Metal in arena or straight in fire of the stacks - no overload. for very quiet shows i tend to uses the ca9100 preamp to get more gain.

[Church-Audio]

now i taped lot of shows with the CA-11 straight into the DR-05 with no battery box. as long its not Heavy Metal in arena or straight in fire of the stacks - no overload. for very quiet shows i tend to uses the ca9100 preamp to get more gain.

Again its all relative.. To how loud your shows actually were. And with out a db meter you will never know. So you might have been attending shows that were all under 95 db? who knows.. But thats why I recommend everyone use a battery box.