Topic: On stage mic positioning?

[leshlush]

I want to apologize in advance, I know that I've started way to many threads in concerns to a project I have today, but I just want to make sure that I have as much info going into it as possible as I've never run this type of set up... I know that practice and trial and error is the best way to learn, but there's so much combined knowledge and experience on this board that it really helps goiing into a new situation feeling as comfortable as possible...

That being said, I'm running a 4 mic mix today... See my other post  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=76733.0, the only difference from my previous post and diagram is that I'm taking Brian's suggestion and splitting my audience signal from the AKG 451s and running one into the R09 and the other into the UA5 with the C4s... I'm running 2 sources (1 just audience and 1 audience+on-stage) just in case the multi-mic mix doesn't come out, I'll at least have my audience source...

Beacuse I don't have any on-stage mic'ing experience, I have a few questions about placement...

First of all, I'll be taping a 4 piece(keys, drums, guitar, and bass) electric jamband who, if anything are more rock-n-roll than anything else... There will be a set of floor monitors on the front of the stage... It's a relatively small venue, but the sound is always very loud, especially when these boys play...

I will be running a set of AKG 451 (cards) in DIN from DFC, 10 to 20 ft back...

I also have a set of SP C4s that I plan to run onstage...

Here are my questions:

I had planned to run my omni caps and do onstage split omni's but would I be better of doing a 4 mic-mix using all cards(2 audience, 2 on-stage)?

If I run the omni's will they cause more of a problem than the cards as far as feedback through the monitiors? Probably not b/c no matter what my mics won't be causing a loop through the system, but I thought I should ask...

From a prev suggestion, I'll be running the on-stage mics about 3 to 4 ft high, (and I know with omni's for every foot from your source, you split them three) but where should they be placed? In front of the monitors? behind the monitors? as far from the band as possible? as close to the band as possible? One on each side of the stage ? DFC?

As well, if I run the omni's, should I run them horizontal(pointed towards the band) or vertically(to capture more just the room sound) or where omni's capture sound somewhat spherically 360 degrees, does it even really matter? I'm not very familiar w/ running omni's, I usually just run 1 set of cards and occassionally I've run some "on the spot" and some 2 source post matrix's using my cards and the soundboard...

Even in this situation, I'm just running the on-satge mics to reinforce my audience mics, so I expect to run the on-stage mics lower in the mix... Would you suggest doing otherwise?

To be safe,I'll be running my pads on the on-stage mics but really, would this even be necessary as the sound on the stage in theory shouldn't be any louder (if not quieter) than the overall room... But I'd hate to overload my mics... Any further suggestions?

Thanks again folks, much appreciated...

And sorry, I'm probably becoming netorious for these long-winded multi question posts... I just want to feel confident in what I'm doing and want to provide you folks w/ as much info as possible so that you can properly direct me... As always, I appreciate any and all feedback...

[Swampy]

There really are a lot of factors that go into this, and unfortunately, no exact methods. IMO A good on-stage tape in the mark of a truly good taper/engineer. IMO, its one of toughest things to get to sound really good.

As far as cards vs. omnis goes, thats really a judgment call like everything else. It really depends on the venue and situation. I've had situations where omnis work really well, and others that they don't. IME, venues tend to have a real dead spot for omnis. if you are in a large room, if you are just at stage lip, sometimes the tape can be very boomy and weird sounding because you are getting weird verb from being just behind the stacks. Also, talkative people in the front row can ruin a stage tape, especially if mics are at their mouth level. 

My experience with stage taping is try to direct your mics away from the drums. Even if you have amps cranked, drums tend to be very overpowering. Of course there are situations that that isn't true, but that seems to be about my experience. IMO 3-4' high seems a bit high, I usally run a little lower maybe 1-3', but again, this all depends on how the band is set up. As far as monitors goes, thats another judgment call that there is no answer to. Really depends. Again, sometimes with omnis behind the stacks and behind the monitors can be a real dead spot...

I would probably run the mics pointed towards the band. Omnis are only directional in the high frequencies, but as you are using the on-stage source to augment an audience source, you'll probably have enough room sound already. As far as where you physically set the mics up, thats impossible to say without knowing how the band is set up. Try to find a spot that will create both a nice balance of instruments and also a nice stereo image. Though, you probably want to think more in terms of a nice balance between instruments than stereo image when doing rock band on-stage... You can fudge with the stereo image in post...

I know I really probably didn't give you a whole lot of answers, but IME unfortunately stage taping is a lot of experimentation, and luck (and some experience doesn't hurt either). The only way you can get it is to go out there and do it. When you set up your mics, try to visualize what they will be hearing, thats a lot more critical with onstage than any other kind of taping really... If you need more help, let me know.

[leshlush]

Thanks Swampy... I'm going in time for load-in and soundcheck so hoppefully I can quickly try a few things out...

+T for your response

[Chanher]

Hopefully you get this before soundcheck, but that is a GREAT opportunity to get your recording dialed in. Record the soundcheck and make adjustments.

Otherwise:

IME, venues tend to have a real dead spot for omnis. if you are in a large room, if you are just at stage lip, sometimes the tape can be very boomy and weird sounding because you are getting weird verb from being just behind the stacks. Also, talkative people in the front row can ruin a stage tape, especially if mics are at their mouth level.

 

My experience with stage taping is try to direct your mics away from the drums.

I no longer run onstage omni's indoors. Boomy and weird are two words I would use to describe them. I also ran outdoor onstage omni's for a bluegrass band, it was still too boomy/muddy for my tastes. If you are set on omni's, I would recommend a HPF in post.

My best results for a rock band was cards center DIN. It was a rock trio with drums in center. Very consistent mix results since the mics point outwards towards the amps and the drums are a little off-axis. I often will adjust the mics so they are pointing right at the amps.
But I see that you have the keys to also contend with. If I were you, I would find the instrument weakest in the mix, and try to capture that the best with your onstage mics. If nothing stands out as weak, I would also consider supplementing the lead instrument(s) by just putting a mic directly on them and later mixing to your aud.

[inoutoffocus]

My best results for a rock band was cards center DIN. It was a rock trio with drums in center. Very consistent mix results since the mics point outwards towards the amps and the drums are a little off-axis. I often will adjust the mics so they are pointing right at the amps.
But I see that you have the keys to also contend with. If I were you, I would find the instrument weakest in the mix, and try to capture that the best with your onstage mics. If nothing stands out as weak, I would also consider supplementing the lead instrument(s) by just putting a mic directly on them and later mixing to your aud.

qft!!

[leshlush]

Thanks folks for the advice... +Ts all around

[F.O.Bean]

mics centered/DIN have given me great results

[Chanher]

how'd it turn out?

[leshlush]

I just got to listen to it a few minutes ago for the first time and unfortunately, I hadn't read the suggestions before making it out yesterday and as suggested the 4-mic mix with on-stage split omni's turned out pretty boomy and weird... Thank goodness I also split and ran a recording of just the audience mics, cause it seems to have come out great... The AKG 451s were a perfect match for the room and the band... It was the first time I ran the AKG 451s (they were rentals) I usually just un my C4s, and too say the least, I really enjoy them... I had read that thjey can at times be a little bright but for the band and the room it was a perfect fit...

Who knows, maybe once I get a chance to do a little post-work on the multi-mic mix, it may turn out better than I assume, but right now it doesn't sound so great...

You live, you learn...

Definitely a great learning experience and that's half the reason I tried it in the first place...

[wbrisette]

Who knows, maybe once I get a chance to do a little post-work on the multi-mic mix, it may turn out better than I assume, but right now it doesn't sound so great...

From my experience, I've found that if you use on-stage mics, you must mix those mics down. If you're running a pure audience tape, then your mics from the PA will be probably 85% of your mix, maybe more. Because I use a bunch of sources for things whenever possible, and don't work in percentages, my mixes tend to have those mics up more in my mix. But, I usually have not only 2 omni's on-stage, but 2 channels from the board, 2 more omni's back in the crowd, and 2 more cards in the crowd. What kills you is the delay. You MUST get it right, or you're hosed (your recording will sound like mud).

I'm finally getting around to mastering a festival that Lee and I worked on for the promoter, here in Austin where I ran 2 mics on-stage, plus the 4 mics and 2 board mix channels. Here is a sample from Grady: http://homepage.mac.com/wayneb/ColdPoison.mp3

(note: the odd sound you hear during the joke is due to a noisy board and punching in an out of certain effects on the board).

Wayne

[Gedit]

i found a program called har-bal that does a great job of eq'ing the occasional tape that has boom or "weirdness" on it

www.har-bal.com

[vwmule]

Here's an on stage I did over the weekend with the LSD2, running blumlein. Came out great. I placed it in the middle of the stage, which is nearly level with the floor. The monitors are on ceiling, facing the stage.


http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=503815

[Nick's Picks]

I like coincident techniques myself.  blumlein!!!!!!!

[todd e]

i ran my first onstage on sunday for lotus.  no singing, monitors out in front of band (on floor) and all the band were using their amps to all instruments.

i decided to run NOS, with the mk21's, sub-cards.  at 1' high, right about the effects pedal, dfc.  i pointed the capsules forward, and angled up a bit to steer clear of the pedals.  it turned out great, IMO. 

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=503851

[Church-Audio]

Thanks folks for the advice... +Ts all around

I personally do not know why ANYONE would run a onstage mic for a amplified performance the sound on stage always sucks! I mean I have spent 20 years as a live sound engineer I have done both monitors and front of house and in all my years I have heard maybe one or two shows that sounded really good on stage with a great balance. So IMO lose the on stage mics I know I am going to get flak for this pardon the pun....

[Shawn]

wow... I gotta disagree with you there chris. Many instrumental bands sound great when taped on-stage. I can point you to tons of amazing on-stage tapes on archive.org... check stuff by  Fareed Haque, Steve Kimock, Lotus, and a few others.

[Church-Audio]

wow... I gotta disagree with you there chris. Many instrumental bands sound great when taped on-stage. I can point you to tons of amazing on-stage tapes on archive.org... check stuff by  Fareed Haque, Steve Kimock, Lotus, and a few others.

I think you most have got lucky the balance on stage is never as good as it is out front unless the front of house guy is a knob. The other major point I am trying to make is the balance changes big time depending on where your standing on a stage...... If you have ever stood on a stage while a band is performing and listened you would hear what I am talking about. I am not saying it cant be done, I am just saying if you want to be more certain of getting a good tape the sound on stage is not it. Besides with the monitor mixes and with whats coming back from the front of house it ain't really what a musician would ever want a listener to hear. For example  a guitar player might want some bass guitar and some keys in his monitor mix with no lead vocal. If you put you mics near him your not going to get a real mix. Does this make sense? times this by 5-10 guys on stage each with there own monitor mix fully capable of drownding out any other stage position and you get the idea..

The other major issue is frequency balance  ( it ain't balanced frequency wise ether ) Cymbals are eating up a huge chunk of the high frequency  bandwidth. Never mind a snare drum this forces you to reduce gain levels. When you do that you lose parts of the performance that are below the cymbals and snare drum. This can be a cool effect but unless its mixed with the front its going to sound like dog shit.

If its an acoustic performance by all means put the mics where you want to but I really don't understand what it is your trying to achieve with a onstage mic setup? Can you explain.

I would love to hear a recording of just the stage I don't think anyone has made one that sounds anywhere near as good as a really good front of house mix....  As a matter of fact I will bet the first person who sends me a recording that sounds as good as a out front recording I will give that person a FREE SET OF MY CARDIOID MICS.  Just to Clarify I am only giving away 1 set of mics Not 4,000 sets OK.... So who ever sends me the first recording that I deem to be as good as a out front mix of an amplifyed band meaning EVERYTHING GOING IN TO THE P.A SYSTEM. I will honor my bet... And I will fair an impartial..This mix can only have THE ON STAGE MICS ONLY! NOT JAZZ OR COUNTRY MUST BE ROCK! we all know jazz bands always sound good so does country...


That's the true test. IMO
Chris Church

[Nick's Picks]

http://www.archive.org/details/cht2005-05-26
sounded just as good as the house, i thought.
got lucky.  sparse ensembles always com out better.

[Church-Audio]

http://www.archive.org/details/cht2005-05-26
sounded just as good as the house, i thought.
got lucky.  sparse ensembles always com out better.

This recording lacks warmth and the balance is horrible. The guitar is too loud the bass has a huge bump at around 100-150hz.... Not something I would ever consider as good as a good out front mix....
I am talking about track #2 I did not really listen to the rest as I could tell right off the top the mix was not very good..

[Shawn]

wow... I gotta disagree with you there chris. Many instrumental bands sound great when taped on-stage. I can point you to tons of amazing on-stage tapes on archive.org... check stuff by  Fareed Haque, Steve Kimock, Lotus, and a few others.

I think you most have got lucky the balance on stage is never as good as it is out front unless the front of house guy is a knob. The other major point I am trying to make is the balance changes big time depending on where your standing on a stage...... If you have ever stood on a stage while a band is performing and listened you would hear what I am talking about. I am not saying it cant be done, I am just saying if you want to be more certain of getting a good tape the sound on stage is not it. Besides with the monitor mixes and with whats coming back from the front of house it ain't really what a musician would ever want a listener to hear. For example  a guitar player might want some bass guitar and some keys in his monitor mix with no lead vocal. If you put you mics near him your not going to get a real mix. Does this make sense? times this by 5-10 guys on stage each with there own monitor mix fully capable of drownding out any other stage position and you get the idea..

The other major issue is frequency balance  ( it ain't balanced frequency wise ether ) Cymbals are eating up a huge chunk of the high frequency  bandwidth. Never mind a snare drum this forces you to reduce gain levels. When you do that you lose parts of the performance that are below the cymbals and snare drum. This can be a cool effect but unless its mixed with the front its going to sound like dog shit.

If its an acoustic performance by all means put the mics where you want to but I really don't understand what it is your trying to achieve with a onstage mic setup? Can you explain.

I would love to hear a recording of just the stage I don't think anyone has made one that sounds anywhere near as good as a really good front of house mix....  As a matter of fact I will bet the first person who sends me a recording that sounds as good as a out front recording I will give that person a FREE SET OF MY CARDIOID MICS.  Just to Clarify I am only giving away 1 set of mics Not 4,000 sets OK.... So who ever sends me the first recording that I deem to be as good as a out front mix of an amplifyed band meaning EVERYTHING GOING IN TO THE P.A SYSTEM. I will honor my bet... And I will fair an impartial..This mix can only have THE ON STAGE MICS ONLY! NOT JAZZ OR COUNTRY MUST BE ROCK! we all know jazz bands always sound good so does country...


That's the true test. IMO
Chris Church

This seriously the first kimock show I clicked on.  tell me which one sounds better...

http://www.archive.org/details/skb2003-02-15.shnf
http://www.archive.org/details/skb2003-02-15.dpa4022.shnf


don't give me any shit about the guitars being loud... this is a band led by a guitarist. it should be louder. I don't even consider this a great example. I'm sure I could easily find better examples with minimal effort. just about any charlie miller source would probably be great. For this type of band I'll take on -stage anyday.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

http://www.archive.org/details/cht2005-05-26
sounded just as good as the house, i thought.
got lucky.  sparse ensembles always com out better.

This recording lacks warmth and the balance is horrible. The guitar is too loud the bass has a huge bump at around 100-150hz....

Sounds just like CHT up close to me!

I'd expect the guitar to be LOUD with the CHT since it is Charlie's Trio...  And the bass has a bump because it is a 7 string guitar with a couple of bass strings. So the bass range is limited and he can't pluck/hit it nearly as hard as a regular bass player.

FOH recordings rarely, if ever, match the clarity and crispness of stage/lip recordings. And shall we talk about sound stage accuracy and *depth*?

CHT sets up with the drums on one side or the other.  House sound will often center the drums. That creates a conflicted soundstage.  You have the very loud drums at their actual position on the recording.. and then you have a similar sound coming from the PA but not aligned the same way.

But please... Don't listen to me.  Run hypers from the section. Have some beers. Leave the stage area clear and I'll take one for the team and risk making those awful recordings.  Sometimes they don't work out.

I am not saying it cant be done, I am just saying if you want to be more certain of getting a good tape the sound on stage is not it.

Absolutely agree.  Stage or stage lip are high risk for poor sound. Positioning changes of a few inches can make a big difference. Major unknowns.. Much safer to move back.  But there you have more talkers and screams and breaking bottles...  AND.... You can't see the band! You can't hear their banter.  There is a world of difference watching a performance from the first 1-3 rows and anywhere else.

[todd e]

chris,

i see some of the points you are making, but you haven't mentioned that the on-stage amps 'may' sound better than two speaker arrays in a club setting (based on nice tube stages and different effects that can be done on the fly.)  i just did my first, so i'm pretty new to onstage, but at this club i always have the house pa dialed in.  however the on-stage, blows the house sound out of the water, simply because you are closer to the sound source (less crowd.) i'm suggesting that the house sound has a somewhat negative rating (in my book) with a room full of drunk people, even with hypers directly at stacks, dfc.

i find the best thing from my recording i just made, was the true separation of sounds from the stage.  it may not be correct balance, but it was loud and sounds great (24/96), so i'm with shawn on this one.  onstage can sound great, but the setting is everything.  onstage, for a huge venue, not a good idea.  for a small stage/act, easier to make the tape sound AWESOME.

all of this is for instrumental, acts, that don't pump a vocal mic.

[Church-Audio]

http://www.archive.org/details/cht2005-05-26
sounded just as good as the house, i thought.
got lucky.  sparse ensembles always com out better.

This recording lacks warmth and the balance is horrible. The guitar is too loud the bass has a huge bump at around 100-150hz....

Sounds just like CHT up close to me!

I'd expect the guitar to be LOUD with the CHT since it is Charlie's Trio...  And the bass has a bump because it is a 7 string guitar with a couple of bass strings. So the bass range is limited and he can't pluck/hit it nearly as hard as a regular bass player.

I am a guitar player I have been playing for 35 years. I would freak out if my out front mix was that bad for my band..... As for a 7 string bass I mix them live all the time a bass guitar should be even with no huge ugly bumps this sound would not be acceptable to me as a live sound engineer or a musician for a out front sound...

FOH recordings rarely, if ever, match the clarity and crispness of stage/lip recordings. And shall we talk about sound stage accuracy and *depth*?

Sound stage accuracy are you kidding me? This is a live band I would think the best place to get an accurate representation of the performance would be from the audience perspective... Clarity and crispness have nothing to do with mic placement they have to do with quality microphones....


[/quote] CHT sets up with the drums on one side or the other.  House sound will often center the drums. That creates a conflicted sound stage.  You have the very loud drums at their actual position on the recording.. and then you have a similar sound coming from the PA but not aligned the same way. [/quote]

House sound centers the drums obviously the sound engineers your listening to do use a pan knob

There is no such thing as actual placement when your talking about real stage monitor levels trust me I can make the acoustic drum kit disappear in a live show with a good pair of monitors...

[/quote] But please... Don't listen to me.  Run hypers from the section. Have some beers. Leave the stage area clear and I'll take one for the team and risk making those awful recordings.  Sometimes they don't work out.[/quote]

If you were taping from the audience you would be able to drink more beer because you could stand beside your gear all night

I am not saying it cant be done, I am just saying if you want to be more certain of getting a good tape the sound on stage is not it.

[/quote] Absolutely agree.  Stage or stage lip are high risk for poor sound. Positioning changes of a few inches can make a big difference. Major unknowns.. Much safer to move back.  But there you have more talkers and screams and breaking bottles...  AND.... You can't see the band! You can't hear their banter.  There is a world of difference watching a performance from the first 1-3 rows and anywhere else. [/quote]

Thus my point..... You are more likely then not to get a better sound if your not trying to capture it on stage thank you...
Hey I like having these debates I think we should start a debate team
Chris Church

[/quote]

[Church-Audio]

chris,

i see some of the points you are making, but you haven't mentioned that the on-stage amps 'may' sound better than two speaker arrays in a club setting (based on nice tube stages and different effects that can be done on the fly.)  i just did my first, so i'm pretty new to onstage, but at this club i always have the house pa dialed in.  however the on-stage, blows the house sound out of the water, simply because you are closer to the sound source (less crowd.) i'm suggesting that the house sound has a somewhat negative rating (in my book) with a room full of drunk people, even with hypers directly at stacks, dfc.

i find the best thing from my recording i just made, was the true separation of sounds from the stage.  it may not be correct balance, but it was loud and sounds great (24/96), so i'm with shawn on this one.  onstage can sound great, but the setting is everything.  onstage, for a huge venue, not a good idea.  for a small stage/act, easier to make the tape sound AWESOME.

all of this is for instrumental, acts, that don't pump a vocal mic.

Again as a guitar player/sound engineer I have heard very few guitar amps on stage that I did not have to eq the living shit out of just to make them sound good Its called the blow by my leg syndrome where no one ever gets down on there hands and knees and actually listens to how things sound in front of the speaker

I would disagree strongly guitar sounds are very hard to get from far away that's why you will never see a sound engineer in a live show use a mic further then 1 foot away from a guitar amp unless he is a moron. The proximity effect is needed just to warm the sound of a 12 inch speaker up. If your on stage sound blows your PA out of the water you don't have much of a PA.... I am not talking about a small club show here I am talking about comparing the best on stage recording with the best out front recording and I will tell you the best out front recording WILL SMOKE the onstage recording....

The whole point of recording is to get the real balance of the event and it ain't on stage If you don't have a good mix from your recording what exactly did you capture that night??? My point is put the mics where the mix is good and 9 x out of 10 it ain't on stage...

[Church-Audio]

wow... I gotta disagree with you there chris. Many instrumental bands sound great when taped on-stage. I can point you to tons of amazing on-stage tapes on archive.org... check stuff by  Fareed Haque, Steve Kimock, Lotus, and a few others.

I think you most have got lucky the balance on stage is never as good as it is out front unless the front of house guy is a knob. The other major point I am trying to make is the balance changes big time depending on where your standing on a stage...... If you have ever stood on a stage while a band is performing and listened you would hear what I am talking about. I am not saying it cant be done, I am just saying if you want to be more certain of getting a good tape the sound on stage is not it. Besides with the monitor mixes and with whats coming back from the front of house it ain't really what a musician would ever want a listener to hear. For example  a guitar player might want some bass guitar and some keys in his monitor mix with no lead vocal. If you put you mics near him your not going to get a real mix. Does this make sense? times this by 5-10 guys on stage each with there own monitor mix fully capable of drownding out any other stage position and you get the idea..

The other major issue is frequency balance  ( it ain't balanced frequency wise ether ) Cymbals are eating up a huge chunk of the high frequency  bandwidth. Never mind a snare drum this forces you to reduce gain levels. When you do that you lose parts of the performance that are below the cymbals and snare drum. This can be a cool effect but unless its mixed with the front its going to sound like dog shit.

If its an acoustic performance by all means put the mics where you want to but I really don't understand what it is your trying to achieve with a onstage mic setup? Can you explain.

I would love to hear a recording of just the stage I don't think anyone has made one that sounds anywhere near as good as a really good front of house mix....  As a matter of fact I will bet the first person who sends me a recording that sounds as good as a out front recording I will give that person a FREE SET OF MY CARDIOID MICS.  Just to Clarify I am only giving away 1 set of mics Not 4,000 sets OK.... So who ever sends me the first recording that I deem to be as good as a out front mix of an amplifyed band meaning EVERYTHING GOING IN TO THE P.A SYSTEM. I will honor my bet... And I will fair an impartial..This mix can only have THE ON STAGE MICS ONLY! NOT JAZZ OR COUNTRY MUST BE ROCK! we all know jazz bands always sound good so does country...


That's the true test. IMO
Chris Church

This seriously the first kimock show I clicked on.  tell me which one sounds better...

http://www.archive.org/details/skb2003-02-15.shnf
http://www.archive.org/details/skb2003-02-15.dpa4022.shnf


don't give me any shit about the guitars being loud... this is a band led by a guitarist. it should be louder. I don't even consider this a great example. I'm sure I could easily find better examples with minimal effort. just about any charlie miller source would probably be great. For this type of band I'll take on -stage any day.

Track #2 of the dpa4022 source sounds very good. But again there is not much going on and the guitars lack a real warmth that would be there in the house PA... I did not bother listening to the first source.. Track #3 shows the real problems with on stage recording the mix is f'ing horrible where are the drums?? All I can hear is bass and guitar the rhythm guitar is a bit to low in the mix and the lead is way too loud.... This mix is not happening... Sorry... But who ever did record this did a good job all things considered... So why only tape the guitars??? why not tape out front where you can capture the whole band in properly mixed format???

Chris Church

[rokpunk]

I mean I have spent 20 years as a live sound engineer I have done both monitors and front of house and in all my years I have heard maybe one or two shows that sounded really good on stage with a great balance.

You are a monitor engineer and have only heard one or two shows that sounded really good and balanced on stage?
That's not saying much about your monitor engineering skills.    

[Church-Audio]

I mean I have spent 20 years as a live sound engineer I have done both monitors and front of house and in all my years I have heard maybe one or two shows that sounded really good on stage with a great balance.

You are a monitor engineer and have only heard one or two shows that sounded really good and balanced on stage?
That's not saying much about your monitor engineering skills.    

LOL hehe you should know as a sound engineer its not about making the mix on stage sound good its giving the guys in the band what they ask for and half of them are deaf 

Here is a picture from my perspective this is a show where I was doing monitors for April Wine, Kim Mitchell, AND David Wilcox... and trust me with these guys it aint about pretty its about LOUD!!!!! and giving them what they want or being on the next bus home The other main problem with stage sound now is we have in ear monitors and most of the bands I work for have them now so the stage sound really sucks because its not about how it sounds on stage its about how it sounds in there ear monitors..... I have done monitors for acts like Aretha Franklin now she wants it to sound like a concert on stage And I had a full size P.A system on stage to make that happen I had 10 12AM monitors on her front line + 8 Clair Brothers P4 piston cabinets And 4 2x18 subs for sidewash, and well it sounded like front of house but on stage So to say I have only heard it two times is not exactly true if I figure in all of the R&B and Jazz bands I have mixed.... But for rock there are very few rock bands that actually had things so I could get a good sound on stage I did monitors for ELO a few times they had a nice stage sound. But when I worked for Edgar Winter in Canada it was all about VOLUME!! Carmine Appice on drums need I say more?

[rokpunk]

dunno....i've done plenty of stages with 12 or 14 wedge mixes, complete with 650P/MSL4 sidefills, and i'd argue that it sounded just as good on stage as it did out front. would i stick mics on stage to record it...nah, but then again, i'd take a board mix over an audience mic recording any day of the week...but most of the tapirs here would disagree. usually if i have mics on stage to record anything, they are pointed at the audience to record ambience or to pump ambience into ear mixes between songs.

[Shawn]

It's a trade off... you take the chance that the mix might be a little off but you avoid the shitty sounding room and all the audience chatter. IME there are some bands that more often than not the mix is very good on-stage. Also IME all to often crowds are excessivley chatty and taping sections are shoved in the back corner of room that already doesn't sound that great. Given that, if I know a band doesn't have vocals or a pile of DI instruments, and they have decent on stage mix I'd rather try to run on-stage. Why??? because on-stage tapes have infintley better stereo image than audience tapes, they have less chatter, and they are less susceptible to bad sounding rooms. The last two can (and often do) ruin audience recordings.

I'd really like charlie miller to chime in here because he probably has as much experience as anyone recording on stage. Like I said the example I provided wasn't the best just simply the first one I clicked on. I can easily find you dozens of amazing on-stage kimock tapes that have a great mix, amazing image, and nice full warm sound. What they don't have is a bunch of drunks screaming into the mics all night long, and they aren't taped 50 feet from the sound source in a giant echoey/boomey concrete box.

I'm not saying it's always possible to make a great tape on-stage every time, or that you make a bad tape from the audience every time. I'm also not saying that you can't make a better tape from the audience sometimes. what I am saying is that in certain specific situations you can make an absolutley amazing tape on stage that is way better than anything you can make from 50' away with drunks screaming into your mics. 

put it this way... If Kimock still allowed on stage taping I'd do it every time I taped them. Just like I'll tape on stage for Fareed Haque, CHT, Skerik, and plenty of other bands that meet the criteria I discussed in my first paragraph. I guess I'd rather listen to a tape where the mix is slightly off than a tape made from the back of a crappy sounding room with two drunks screaming over the music about when they were on tour with the monkees and got back stage to get an autograph from Michael Nesmith.

[rokpunk]

/is NOT amused




 

[Nick's Picks]

hmmm...that was about my best offering Chris.

My perspective is a little different because I was there, and the recording recreates the layout of the stage perfectly (the 24/96 copy is sick).  Images wonderfully.  I guess I am not putting the same emphasis on balance and presentation/tone as you.  for me, its recreating it as I remember it, and this is right on.  But, to each their own.  I'd rather be recording un-amplified music anyway.
how about this, which i've always enjoyed. check d1t1
http://www.archive.org/details/skb2004-02-28.flac16
now this is a PA recording in a full room (maybe 400? in a long, bent rectangle shaped room).  The PA consisted of these two huge walls of speaker cabs.  closing the triangle between those stacks put the stage wayyy off center from where we ended up planting a stand.
Its not perfect or anything, but I've enjoyed it.

[Church-Audio]

I am not saying recording from a stage can not yield a good tape but its never going to be as good as the best out front mix.. Thats All I am saying

[Nick's Picks]

likely true..but i'd prefer to tape on stage or at the lip any way.

[Church-Audio]

likely true..but i'd prefer to tape on stage or at the lip any way.

Its a very different sound that I think does translate better with headphones then speakers its almost binaural in nature. When I listened to the tracks that some of you pointed me too I first listened thru speakers then I tried headphones and the balance while still not perfect was better and things made more sense to me in the perspective of the sound stage... Does that make any sense is that how you see it?

[Shawn]

I am not saying recording from a stage can not yield a good tape but its never going to be as good as the best out front mix.. Thats All I am saying

as far as mix goes you are correct, but in almost every other aspect that matters an on-stage tape will sound better. here is a much better example of an on stage tape being superior to a section tape. Grider taped on stage, and I taped from "the section" which was in the back of the room, and I was surrounded by chatty people. Just listen to the first tune.

My source from the section: http://www.archive.org/details/soulive2006-06-18.adktl.flac16
Chris Grider's source on stage: http://www.archive.org/details/soulive2006-06-17.flac16

What did you hear? I'll tell you what I heard... Grider's tape has an amazing stereo image, and mine doesn't. Griders tape has a much cleaner low end than mine. grider's tape has less people talking, which becomes more obvious by the end of the show.  Grider's tape doesn't reflect the fact that this room sounds pretty bad and mine does. What does my tape have over grider's???  a slightly better mix. I'd take his any day over mine, and in fact after I uploaded his I seriously contemplated taking mine down because his is superior in almost every way. Grider talked me out of it though because multiple sources are always nice.

(I  f'ed up the date on my archive upload... so it's different than grider's, but it's the same show)

[Shawn]

oh... and +T to everyone for keeping the discussion civil and not -t'ing everyone to death. It's nice to see people disagreeing without things devolving like so often happens on other forums.

[gratefulphish]

I am not saying recording from a stage can not yield a good tape but its never going to be as good as the best out front mix.. Thats All I am saying

I am jumping into this discussion a little late, and I heartily agree and disagree with various aspects of different posts.  I think that Chris' quote above actually sums it up pretty accurately.  I also love to tape on stage, but preferably behind the monitors under just about any situation.  If it is a non-vocal band, a la Kimock and many others, with good mic placement, you can produce phenomenal tapes, with instrumental clarity, along with lack of audience noise, room boom, breaking bottles, etc.   If you happen to be fortunate enough to be in a great club, with an excellent PA, and a great sound engineer, and there is an ideal taping location available, you can hoist your mics, and the crowd is somewhat respectful of the music, then yes, this could well be the dream tape.  Unfortunately, I am not usually at these shows.  Many PAs are lame to downright awful, with say a nice buzz coming through one channel.  Too many sound engineers are just plain deaf, and as far as I can tell, can barely distinguish between various high frequency sounds and balance them in the mix.  Many smaller rooms are iffy at best, too narrow, poor PA placement, or limitations on where tapers can set up.  I am not talking about a high quality room here, but a lot of run of the mill rooms, in which many of the small to mid-range drawing bands play.  In those rooms, with an instrumental band, you will find my stand front and center.   In a GREAT room (wishing there were more here) I will agree with Chris. 

I also would like to comment about one of my pet peeves about on-stage taping, which is mic placement.  Dead center is just not the answer for every band, and people seem to slavishly want to get out a tape measure to plant their stands there, no matter what.  If there is a big drum kit in front of you, on a shallow stage, then the drummer is going to love your tape, but not too many others will.  Many times, the stand needs to be moved left or right to ensure that the drums or bass don't completely drown out the other instruments.  Since every band sets up differently, you really need to survey the situation, and place your mics accordingly.  Rant over.

[Shawn]

good point about mic placement. I would say that when taping on stage mic placement is just as important as when you are AUD taping.

[Church-Audio]

I am not saying recording from a stage can not yield a good tape but its never going to be as good as the best out front mix.. Thats All I am saying

I am jumping into this discussion a little late, and I heartily agree and disagree with various aspects of different posts.  I think that Chris' quote above actually sums it up pretty accurately.  I also love to tape on stage, but preferably behind the monitors under just about any situation.  If it is a non-vocal band, a la Kimock and many others, with good mic placement, you can produce phenomenal tapes, with instrumental clarity, along with lack of audience noise, room boom, breaking bottles, etc.   If you happen to be fortunate enough to be in a great club, with an excellent PA, and a great sound engineer, and there is an ideal taping location available, you can hoist your mics, and the crowd is somewhat respectful of the music, then yes, this could well be the dream tape.  Unfortunately, I am not usually at these shows.  Many PAs are lame to downright awful, with say a nice buzz coming through one channel.  Too many sound engineers are just plain deaf, and as far as I can tell, can barely distinguish between various high frequency sounds and balance them in the mix.  Many smaller rooms are iffy at best, too narrow, poor PA placement, or limitations on where tapers can set up.  I am not talking about a high quality room here, but a lot of run of the mill rooms, in which many of the small to mid-range drawing bands play.  In those rooms, with an instrumental band, you will find my stand front and center.   In a GREAT room (wishing there were more here) I will agree with Chris. 

I also would like to comment about one of my pet peeves about on-stage taping, which is mic placement.  Dead center is just not the answer for every band, and people seem to slavishly want to get out a tape measure to plant their stands there, no matter what.  If there is a big drum kit in front of you, on a shallow stage, then the drummer is going to love your tape, but not too many others will.  Many times, the stand needs to be moved left or right to ensure that the drums or bass don't completely drown out the other instruments.  Since every band sets up differently, you really need to survey the situation, and place your mics accordingly.  Rant over.

I think when your trying to capture sound off the stage you need to think like a 50's studio engineer where do I put my single mic so I can capture as much of this band as I can approach. And you are 100% correct dead center is not exactly where the mics should be it really does depend on what the stage plot ( position of the musicians ) is like. In the olden days For bluegrass as an example musicians would move in and out of the mic zone as there solos came up or when they were singing harmonies. There is a real lost art to the true balance of sounds coming from a stage and we can thank monitors for that I think its a shame that most bands do not have a good stage balance it seems to me now its more about a volume war then anything.. I wish would could get back to the days were drummers did not beat the shit out of there symbols and played with a true balance.

I have said this to many bands that had a shit balance on stage mix your selves up here they way you want to be mixed out front and you will have a good sound. Play as loud as you can because you can and 9x out of 10 it will sound like a bag of crap. Now with super loud sound systems as a live sound engineer the stage volume is not a problem they can be as loud as they want and I can still go over top of it. The main problem with this is 95db what I consider to be comfortable is no longer the norm its now more like 105 to 110db from the stage before the PA is even on! When I worked with April Wine the stage volume was about 115db I had at one time on the lead singer 5 monitors each one consisting of 2x 12 inch and one 2 inch horn there was about 5,000 watts of monitors just around the lead singer it was so loud then when I checked his mic my ears would shut down... This is where our balance has gone. And this is why for most shows unless its just a instrumental thing its very hard to get a good stage tape.

[grider]

I  believe your biggest concern when taping from stage or stage lip has got to be pa mic'ing; if one or more of the instruments is mic'ed only through the house pa, such as vocals, and the pa amplification cannot be captured from that close mic placement, its not going to work; another concern must be mic'ing too close to percussions or cymbals for example, or mic'ing too close to the wedge or on-stage amps which can bleed directly into your mics; assuming that you can successfully tape from stage or stage lip, and make a quality recording, I just eyeball it after that, if its a small band or a small stage I run DIN, if its a wide stage or a larger more spriead out group of instruments and musicians I go with ORTF, and I try to fly my mics about waist height; and a crucial detail I have learned the hard way is to run cards not hypers, cards have no rear lobe and will not pick up sound behind the mics to the degree that hypers will since hypers have a rear lobe pick up pattern; when taped successfully from the stage or stage lip, recordings blow everything else away easily, good luck

[grider]

an example of what I find to be an example of on stage recording at its finest, stream from archive.org the Lotus show from 10-21-05, its like being in the front row at the show

[Church-Audio]

an example of what I find to be an example of on stage recording at its finest, stream from archive.org the Lotus show from 10-21-05, its like being in the front row at the show

I am not a member can you send me a bit of the file??

[Church-Audio]

no membership necessary

I think this is the recording that he suggests:
http://www.archive.org/details/lotus2005-10-21.481

Thanks got it...

[Church-Audio]

an example of what I find to be an example of on stage recording at its finest, stream from archive.org the Lotus show from 10-21-05, its like being in the front row at the show

Hi I listened to it not bad but still no where as good as a good front of house mix sorry..... But it is one of the better recordings I have heard I find again the bass is too boomy I can hear the ugly 125 to 150 resonation of the stage.. And the guitar is again to loud in the mix... IMO.

Chris Church

[gratefulphish]

I  believe your biggest concern when taping from stage or stage lip has got to be pa mic'ing; if one or more of the instruments is mic'ed only through the house pa, such as vocals, and the pa amplification cannot be captured from that close mic placement, its not going to work; another concern must be mic'ing too close to percussions or cymbals for example, or mic'ing too close to the wedge or on-stage amps which can bleed directly into your mics; assuming that you can successfully tape from stage or stage lip, and make a quality recording, I just eyeball it after that, if its a small band or a small stage I run DIN, if its a wide stage or a larger more spriead out group of instruments and musicians I go with ORTF, and I try to fly my mics about waist height; and a crucial detail I have learned the hard way is to run cards not hypers, cards have no rear lobe and will not pick up sound behind the mics to the degree that hypers will since hypers have a rear lobe pick up pattern; when taped successfully from the stage or stage lip, recordings blow everything else away easily, good luck

As I tried to point out, on-stage is only really appropriate for bands without vocals, or PA only instruments.  BTW, I would never run hypers on-stage, notwithstanding the rear lobe, just too focused for that close up.  I usually run subcard up there, otherwise card.

[F.O.Bean]

no membership necessary

I think this is the recording that he suggests:
http://www.archive.org/details/lotus2005-10-21.481

10/21 and 10/15 are the best onstage-stage-lip lotus shows ive heard, i like matrix's the best but

i would not hesitate to take or make a stage-lip tape over a room tape anyday of the week as long as the band doesnt have vocals

10/15/2005 Lotus

http://www.archive.org/details/lotus2005-10-15.481

[Church-Audio]

no membership necessary

I think this is the recording that he suggests:
http://www.archive.org/details/lotus2005-10-21.481

10/21 and 10/15 are the best onstage-stage-lip lotus shows ive heard, i like matrix's the best but

i would not hesitate to take or make a stage-lip tape over a room tape anyday of the week as long as the band doesnt have vocals

10/15/2005 Lotus

http://www.archive.org/details/lotus2005-10-15.481

BUT thats my point I still stand by what I said I have yet to hear a full band stage recording sound anywhere near as good as a GOOD out front mix. And so far no one has shown me one.

[grider]

for an interesting comparison Chris you might stream Lotus from 10-26-05, it was at the cavernous Canpoy Club and in a totally different acoustical environment than the 10-21-05 was; the 10-21 was in a long narrow two story bar with plywood echoey walls, and the stage is probably only ten or twelve feet wide raised off the floor probably three feet; the 10-26 show however was in a very wide but shallow theatre where the stage is probably fifty or sixty feet wide, suitable for plays and such really, and the stage was also about thirty feet deep; so, for the 10-21 I ran DIN, and for the 10-26 I ran ORTF, and though the recordings are both on stage placement recordings of the same band a week apart with the same gear they sound totally different for the above reasons

[F.O.Bean]

no membership necessary

I think this is the recording that he suggests:
http://www.archive.org/details/lotus2005-10-21.481

10/21 and 10/15 are the best onstage-stage-lip lotus shows ive heard, i like matrix's the best but

i would not hesitate to take or make a stage-lip tape over a room tape anyday of the week as long as the band doesnt have vocals

10/15/2005 Lotus

http://www.archive.org/details/lotus2005-10-15.481

BUT thats my point I still stand by what I said I have yet to hear a full band stage recording sound anywhere near as good as a GOOD out front mix. And so far no one has shown me one.

I agree with you there

[grider]

Chris give a listen to Fareed Haque Group from 4-15-06 also on archive.org and see what you think; I must say for the record that usually when I tape up close it is because either the sound in the room sucks, there is no where to put a stand, and so forth

[bkirby]

Most of the on-stage recordings I do is when I know the band and I have full access to anything. I usually run the MK21s in NOS onstage where the drums are centered! Since I know the guys in the band, they know how to accomodate me where the drums are set up just about center! I will run these through the snake back to the SBD, but the snake is then directly plugged into my mixer. Then I usually have the direct outs from the SBD for the vocal tracks and sometimes the bass and kick (for centering if needed). Mixing on the fly is sometimes difficult in a loud venue, but usually we will record everything on multitrack and mix later. For just two-channel recording into the SD722, I have run it this way and have gotten stellar results! Of course, I know the bands, know how they run their sound, and I'm familiar with the venues. It took a bit of trial and error to get really good results. Just my $0.02! To each their own...

[todd e]

since we are all wipping out our lotus pulls, from last sunday:

http://www.archive.org/details/lotus2007-01-28.mk21.flac16

i think the mix is not too overwhelmed by drums, you can hear the keys/bass/guitar all - very well
there may be a tiny bit too much cymbals, but i'll take that any day over a clapper...

and this was run NOS, a wider ORTF pattern, at 1 foot

ALSO, since I'm a bit worried about this, please download the files as opposed to streaming the mp3's and the VBR or 64 mp3's sound bad IMO.

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

no membership necessary

I think this is the recording that he suggests:
http://www.archive.org/details/lotus2005-10-21.481

10/21 and 10/15 are the best onstage-stage-lip lotus shows ive heard, i like matrix's the best but

i would not hesitate to take or make a stage-lip tape over a room tape anyday of the week as long as the band doesnt have vocals

10/15/2005 Lotus

http://www.archive.org/details/lotus2005-10-15.481

BUT thats my point I still stand by what I said I have yet to hear a full band stage recording sound anywhere near as good as a GOOD out front mix. And so far no one has shown me one.

Unless it's maybe an oldtime/bluegrass recording.  I have many many many that are better than the boards as most sound guys don't use high end mics.  I nudge mine right in there with the setup.  Again I've made many IMO.  Also have had great results with 2 figure 8's in the middle of a circle.

[Church-Audio]

no membership necessary

I think this is the recording that he suggests:
http://www.archive.org/details/lotus2005-10-21.481

10/21 and 10/15 are the best onstage-stage-lip lotus shows ive heard, i like matrix's the best but

i would not hesitate to take or make a stage-lip tape over a room tape any day of the week as long as the band doesnt have vocals

10/15/2005 Lotus

http://www.archive.org/details/lotus2005-10-15.481

BUT thats my point I still stand by what I said I have yet to hear a full band stage recording sound anywhere near as good as a GOOD out front mix. And so far no one has shown me one.

Unless it's maybe an oldtime/bluegrass recording.  I have many many many that are better than the boards as most sound guys don't use high end mics.  I nudge mine right in there with the setup.  Again I've made many IMO.  Also have had great results with 2 figure 8's in the middle of a circle.

Ummm if your taping the show your recording the not so high end mics I like most sound engineers I know use high end mics all the time so I would have to disagree with you on that point.. I would still rather stick it out taping front of house then taping stage No one has shown me the magic recording yet my offer still stands..

[grider]

Fareed Haque Group 4-15-06 on archive.org

[rokpunk]

Just out of curiousity, Chris, do you prefer the sound of a soundboard 2 track recording (assuming a full band mix), or the sound of an audience recording from the sweet spot with decent mics?

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

I could be wrong Chris but most of the clubs in Portland run Shure SM whatever's on everything cept maybe drums.

Oh ya Cris I'd be happy to send you a Crooked Jades recording I made in my backyard last fall with just a stereo pair.  It was unplugged.  No board.  Sounds fantastic.  Lemme know if you're interested.  One of the best I've ever made.  I know it's not a club and not the same but I want you to hear it!  :0)

[Church-Audio]

I could be wrong Chris but most of the clubs in Portland run Shure SM whatever's on everything cept maybe drums.

Oh ya Cris I'd be happy to send you a Crooked Jades recording I made in my backyard last fall with just a stereo pair.  It was unplugged.  No board.  Sounds fantastic.  Lemme know if you're interested.  One of the best I've ever made.  I know it's not a club and not the same but I want you to hear it!  :0)

Most of the bands I work with are using the Neumann 105 handheld or a beta 87. Hardly second rate microphones as for guitar amps I might use a akg 414 or a sm57. I am not talking about small clubs I am talking about in an ideal situation a out front recording is going to be better then a on stage mic recording... I think the days of the cheap mics for live sound and expensive mics for studio are pretty much done.. In the high end of live sound we have all the tricks of the trade studio engineers or live tapers have in there gear bags and then some.

I would love to hear your recording.. I love to listen to good recordings of bands.. Some great albums have been cut with distant mics for recording a band but its understood and the band adjusts the balance accordingly. I have did a show in Oakville Ontario in a live festival with the Montreal Symphony Orchestra I used MKH40 and MKH50 as well as Neumann M50 and others.. I love good mics the gap between the studio and live is closing fast we now have live sound systems that are capable of delivering studio quality world class sound. I know the smaller clubs are not there yet but things are improving. When I started out in clubs the sound system of choice was made by Martin Audio now Its Meyer Sound V-dosc EV/ Line array, JBL vertec, ect. My whole point is a good quality sound system with a good engineer with a good placement of microphones out front, flanks and stage sound recording I have ever heard.

 

[Church-Audio]

Just out of curiousity, Chris, do you prefer the sound of a soundboard 2 track recording (assuming a full band mix), or the sound of an audience recording from the sweet spot with decent mics?

I would always prefer a two track ROOM recording if capturing things they whey they happened is important from an audience perspective. Board mixes can be good I have done a few that turned out very good. Audience recording with a sweet spot with VERY GOOD mics is what I like to hear when its a amplified show.. When its acoustic its a whole different ball game then you want to be close like on stage

[NJFunk]

This isn't a perfect comparison, but here are two recordings that I made of the same band in the same venue with the same mic/preamp/recorder.  This one is a matrix, but the PA had only vocals (and a tiny bit of kick drum), so the guitar, bass, drums, and keys are all coming from the stage mics:

http://www.archive.org/details/JHB2006-12-01-1644-Matrix

This one is a mic recording made from the sweet spot in the audience:

http://www.archive.org/details/jhb2006-06-24.flac16

I'll take the stage lip recording every day of the week.  The sound is clearer and more up close sounding and the stereo image is 100x better on the stage lip recording.

[Church-Audio]

This isn't a perfect comparison, but here are two recordings that I made of the same band in the same venue with the same mic/preamp/recorder.  This one is a matrix, but the PA had only vocals (and a tiny bit of kick drum), so the guitar, bass, drums, and keys are all coming from the stage mics:

http://www.archive.org/details/JHB2006-12-01-1644-Matrix

This one is a mic recording made from the sweet spot in the audience:

http://www.archive.org/details/jhb2006-06-24.flac16

I'll take the stage lip recording every day of the week.  The sound is clearer and more up close sounding and the stereo image is 100x better on the stage lip recording.

The is clear because you don't have all these heads absorbing sound with a good sound system and good mic placement this is not really an issue with audience recording.. I would argue that the mix is going to be off I don't see why no one gets that? You have stage monitors and they could and do have all types of things pumped into them this all effects the mix your getting with a stage mic.. Even if your behind the monitor line? so my question is why would you want to record something when the mix is not perfect? I can understand wanting to record from your perspective.. but I don't understand how someone can say a stage mix is going to be as good as an out front mix.... So I don't see the point in stage recording unless two requirements are met.

1- the band gets the balance right on stage and works with you ( this would only ever happen if they hired you)
2- The mics can be placed WHERE you want them and the band can be rearranged on stage so that the pickup is going to be even..
3- there is no vocal because as soon as you introduce vocal you introduce monitors and getting the balance right after that is almost impossible..

I am trying to understand this way of thinking.. I am not trying to provoke anyone  by saying they are stupid I am just trying to understand the logic.

[NJFunk]

This isn't a perfect comparison, but here are two recordings that I made of the same band in the same venue with the same mic/preamp/recorder.  This one is a matrix, but the PA had only vocals (and a tiny bit of kick drum), so the guitar, bass, drums, and keys are all coming from the stage mics:

http://www.archive.org/details/JHB2006-12-01-1644-Matrix

This one is a mic recording made from the sweet spot in the audience:

http://www.archive.org/details/jhb2006-06-24.flac16

I'll take the stage lip recording every day of the week.  The sound is clearer and more up close sounding and the stereo image is 100x better on the stage lip recording.

The is clear because you don't have all these heads absorbing sound with a good sound system and good mic placement this is not really an issue with audience recording.. I would argue that the mix is going to be off I don't see why no one gets that? You have stage monitors and they could and do have all types of things pumped into them this all effects the mix your getting with a stage mic.. Even if your behind the monitor line? so my question is why would you want to record something when the mix is not perfect? I can understand wanting to record from your perspective.. but I don't understand how someone can say a stage mix is going to be as good as an out front mix.... So I don't see the point in stage recording unless two requirements are met.

1- the band gets the balance right on stage and works with you ( this would only ever happen if they hired you)
2- The mics can be placed WHERE you want them and the band can be rearranged on stage so that the pickup is going to be even..
3- there is no vocal because as soon as you introduce vocal you introduce monitors and getting the balance right after that is almost impossible..

I am trying to understand this way of thinking.. I am not trying to provoke anyone  by saying they are stupid I am just trying to understand the logic.

Does the mix sound off to you?  I think it sounds great.  Do you prefer the audience recording in this case?  I do not, not even close.  I understand your basic premise, that it's more likely that the stage mix will be off, and some of the stage lip recordings I've made I've simply deleted for that exact reason, but on the other hand, when conditions are right, I think some stage or stage lip recordings sound absolutely fantastic.  This is especially true in smaller clubs that are not likely to have good PA systems and are more likely to have a PA feed that can be mixed in that has vocals only on it.  My goal is not to challenge your basic premise, but to get you to acknowledge that there are exceptions to the basic premise and to reject your blanket rule that stage recordings are NEVER preferable without considering the circumstances of the individual situation.

[Church-Audio]

This isn't a perfect comparison, but here are two recordings that I made of the same band in the same venue with the same mic/preamp/recorder.  This one is a matrix, but the PA had only vocals (and a tiny bit of kick drum), so the guitar, bass, drums, and keys are all coming from the stage mics:

http://www.archive.org/details/JHB2006-12-01-1644-Matrix

This one is a mic recording made from the sweet spot in the audience:

http://www.archive.org/details/jhb2006-06-24.flac16

I'll take the stage lip recording every day of the week.  The sound is clearer and more up close sounding and the stereo image is 100x better on the stage lip recording.

The is clear because you don't have all these heads absorbing sound with a good sound system and good mic placement this is not really an issue with audience recording.. I would argue that the mix is going to be off I don't see why no one gets that? You have stage monitors and they could and do have all types of things pumped into them this all effects the mix your getting with a stage mic.. Even if your behind the monitor line? so my question is why would you want to record something when the mix is not perfect? I can understand wanting to record from your perspective.. but I don't understand how someone can say a stage mix is going to be as good as an out front mix.... So I don't see the point in stage recording unless two requirements are met.

1- the band gets the balance right on stage and works with you ( this would only ever happen if they hired you)
2- The mics can be placed WHERE you want them and the band can be rearranged on stage so that the pickup is going to be even..
3- there is no vocal because as soon as you introduce vocal you introduce monitors and getting the balance right after that is almost impossible..

I am trying to understand this way of thinking.. I am not trying to provoke anyone  by saying they are stupid I am just trying to understand the logic.

Does the mix sound off to you?  I think it sounds great.  Do you prefer the audience recording in this case?  I do not, not even close.  I understand your basic premise, that it's more likely that the stage mix will be off, and some of the stage lip recordings I've made I've simply deleted for that exact reason, but on the other hand, when conditions are right, I think some stage or stage lip recordings sound absolutely fantastic.  This is especially true in smaller clubs that are not likely to have good PA systems and are more likely to have a PA feed that can be mixed in that has vocals only on it.  My goal is not to challenge your basic premise, but to get you to acknowledge that there are exceptions to the basic premise and to reject your blanket rule that stage recordings are NEVER preferable without considering the circumstances of the individual situation.

I think you have misunderstood me. I have never said that there is no way a stage recording can sound good quite the opposite stage recordings can sound good if the sound on stage is good and the balance is correct. Musicians on stage its like a war they are fighting tooth and nail to here them selves so that they can get there intonation and timing and so that they feel comfortable with there show.. Its very VERY hard to get a good balance with monitors so most musicians settle for just being able to hear them selves perform... This balance can happen when you throw lots of money at it I was a pa tech for Jon Bonjovi when he was in Canada his monitor engineer was Alan Richardson, the regular guy they used was not with them I HAVE NEVER HEARD A BETTER STAGE SOUND IN MY LIFE. then I did when he was mixing monitors.... PERIOD.. if you had a set of mics for any one of these shows it would have sounded better then the front of house mix. But this is one of the worlds best monitor engineers and it sounded like god! I felt like quiting doing sound after I heard his monitor mix.. I was depressed for days.. But I learned a lot from him. So Yes stage sound can be very good. But you have to have the right gear and the right monitor engineer with a band that wants it to sound like Front of house or a studio on stage * they are very rare * And there is only so many Alan Richardson's to go around... So the chances of getting a better recording of an out front mix are I would say 95% better then getting a good on stage recording.. With an amplified band with vocals.. Who is not JAZZ or Country....

Chris Church

[NJFunk]

This isn't a perfect comparison, but here are two recordings that I made of the same band in the same venue with the same mic/preamp/recorder.  This one is a matrix, but the PA had only vocals (and a tiny bit of kick drum), so the guitar, bass, drums, and keys are all coming from the stage mics:

http://www.archive.org/details/JHB2006-12-01-1644-Matrix

This one is a mic recording made from the sweet spot in the audience:

http://www.archive.org/details/jhb2006-06-24.flac16

I'll take the stage lip recording every day of the week.  The sound is clearer and more up close sounding and the stereo image is 100x better on the stage lip recording.

The is clear because you don't have all these heads absorbing sound with a good sound system and good mic placement this is not really an issue with audience recording.. I would argue that the mix is going to be off I don't see why no one gets that? You have stage monitors and they could and do have all types of things pumped into them this all effects the mix your getting with a stage mic.. Even if your behind the monitor line? so my question is why would you want to record something when the mix is not perfect? I can understand wanting to record from your perspective.. but I don't understand how someone can say a stage mix is going to be as good as an out front mix.... So I don't see the point in stage recording unless two requirements are met.

1- the band gets the balance right on stage and works with you ( this would only ever happen if they hired you)
2- The mics can be placed WHERE you want them and the band can be rearranged on stage so that the pickup is going to be even..
3- there is no vocal because as soon as you introduce vocal you introduce monitors and getting the balance right after that is almost impossible..

I am trying to understand this way of thinking.. I am not trying to provoke anyone  by saying they are stupid I am just trying to understand the logic.

Does the mix sound off to you?  I think it sounds great.  Do you prefer the audience recording in this case?  I do not, not even close.  I understand your basic premise, that it's more likely that the stage mix will be off, and some of the stage lip recordings I've made I've simply deleted for that exact reason, but on the other hand, when conditions are right, I think some stage or stage lip recordings sound absolutely fantastic.  This is especially true in smaller clubs that are not likely to have good PA systems and are more likely to have a PA feed that can be mixed in that has vocals only on it.  My goal is not to challenge your basic premise, but to get you to acknowledge that there are exceptions to the basic premise and to reject your blanket rule that stage recordings are NEVER preferable without considering the circumstances of the individual situation.

I think you have misunderstood me. I have never said that there is no way a stage recording can sound good quite the opposite stage recordings can sound good if the sound on stage is good and the balance is correct. Musicians on stage its like a war they are fighting tooth and nail to here them selves so that they can get there intonation and timing and so that they feel comfortable with there show.. Its very VERY hard to get a good balance with monitors so most musicians settle for just being able to hear them selves perform... This balance can happen when you throw lots of money at it I was a pa tech for Jon Bonjovi when he was in Canada his monitor engineer was Alan Richardson, the regular guy they used was not with them I HAVE NEVER HEARD A BETTER STAGE SOUND IN MY LIFE. then I did when he was mixing monitors.... PERIOD.. if you had a set of mics for any one of these shows it would have sounded better then the front of house mix. But this is one of the worlds best monitor engineers and it sounded like god! I felt like quiting doing sound after I heard his monitor mix.. I was depressed for days.. But I learned a lot from him. So Yes stage sound can be very good. But you have to have the right gear and the right monitor engineer with a band that wants it to sound like Front of house or a studio on stage * they are very rare * And there is only so many Alan Richardson's to go around... So the chances of getting a better recording of an out front mix are I would say 95% better then getting a good on stage recording.. With an amplified band with vocals.. Who is not JAZZ or Country....

Chris Church

You're still avoiding this particular situation.  This was not Bon Jovi with a world class sound system in a large arena and a world class monitor engineer.  This was a bunch of guys in a bar with the guitarist running the PA system which had one main mix and one monitor mix and only vocals in the PA. 

In terms of your other three criteria:

1.  I was not hired by the band and they did not adjust their on stage amp volume to suit my recording.
2.  The mics were placed where I wanted, but I certainly did not rearrange where the musicians were.
3.  There were vocals.

All three conditions were not met, yet I came away with a terrific recording.  Your assertation of 95% is laughable.  I have run these types of mixes a lot.  My experience has been that about 2/3 sound great and 1/3 are not usable.  Here are some other examples on the LMA that I did the same way:

http://www.archive.org/details/tbm2006-01-13-Matrix
http://www.archive.org/details/jbox2006-04-28-Matrix

This is one where the drums came out too loud.  This is about the limit of bad mix that I will tolerate and still spread:

http://www.archive.org/details/tbm2006-02-10-Matrix

Anything worse than that will be deleted and forgotten.

There's no way in hell a straight audience recording of any of these gigs would have come even close to the quality of the stage lip recording (even in the case of the one where the mix is a little off).  These are also done in venues where there was no soundman much less a monitor engineer, the PA mix was done on-stage by the musicians, and there were only vocal mics (with vocals and horns played through the vocal mics in the case of the Blue Method) or vocal mics plus a touch of kick drum in the SBD part of the feed.

These are not jazz or country or accoustic.  What say you?

[Church-Audio]

This isn't a perfect comparison, but here are two recordings that I made of the same band in the same venue with the same mic/preamp/recorder.  This one is a matrix, but the PA had only vocals (and a tiny bit of kick drum), so the guitar, bass, drums, and keys are all coming from the stage mics:

http://www.archive.org/details/JHB2006-12-01-1644-Matrix

This one is a mic recording made from the sweet spot in the audience:

http://www.archive.org/details/jhb2006-06-24.flac16

I'll take the stage lip recording every day of the week.  The sound is clearer and more up close sounding and the stereo image is 100x better on the stage lip recording.

The is clear because you don't have all these heads absorbing sound with a good sound system and good mic placement this is not really an issue with audience recording.. I would argue that the mix is going to be off I don't see why no one gets that? You have stage monitors and they could and do have all types of things pumped into them this all effects the mix your getting with a stage mic.. Even if your behind the monitor line? so my question is why would you want to record something when the mix is not perfect? I can understand wanting to record from your perspective.. but I don't understand how someone can say a stage mix is going to be as good as an out front mix.... So I don't see the point in stage recording unless two requirements are met.

1- the band gets the balance right on stage and works with you ( this would only ever happen if they hired you)
2- The mics can be placed WHERE you want them and the band can be rearranged on stage so that the pickup is going to be even..
3- there is no vocal because as soon as you introduce vocal you introduce monitors and getting the balance right after that is almost impossible..

I am trying to understand this way of thinking.. I am not trying to provoke anyone  by saying they are stupid I am just trying to understand the logic.

Does the mix sound off to you?  I think it sounds great.  Do you prefer the audience recording in this case?  I do not, not even close.  I understand your basic premise, that it's more likely that the stage mix will be off, and some of the stage lip recordings I've made I've simply deleted for that exact reason, but on the other hand, when conditions are right, I think some stage or stage lip recordings sound absolutely fantastic.  This is especially true in smaller clubs that are not likely to have good PA systems and are more likely to have a PA feed that can be mixed in that has vocals only on it.  My goal is not to challenge your basic premise, but to get you to acknowledge that there are exceptions to the basic premise and to reject your blanket rule that stage recordings are NEVER preferable without considering the circumstances of the individual situation.

I think you have misunderstood me. I have never said that there is no way a stage recording can sound good quite the opposite stage recordings can sound good if the sound on stage is good and the balance is correct. Musicians on stage its like a war they are fighting tooth and nail to here them selves so that they can get there intonation and timing and so that they feel comfortable with there show.. Its very VERY hard to get a good balance with monitors so most musicians settle for just being able to hear them selves perform... This balance can happen when you throw lots of money at it I was a pa tech for Jon Bonjovi when he was in Canada his monitor engineer was Alan Richardson, the regular guy they used was not with them I HAVE NEVER HEARD A BETTER STAGE SOUND IN MY LIFE. then I did when he was mixing monitors.... PERIOD.. if you had a set of mics for any one of these shows it would have sounded better then the front of house mix. But this is one of the worlds best monitor engineers and it sounded like god! I felt like quiting doing sound after I heard his monitor mix.. I was depressed for days.. But I learned a lot from him. So Yes stage sound can be very good. But you have to have the right gear and the right monitor engineer with a band that wants it to sound like Front of house or a studio on stage * they are very rare * And there is only so many Alan Richardson's to go around... So the chances of getting a better recording of an out front mix are I would say 95% better then getting a good on stage recording.. With an amplified band with vocals.. Who is not JAZZ or Country....

Chris Church

You're still avoiding this particular situation.  This was not Bon Jovi with a world class sound system in a large arena and a world class monitor engineer.  This was a bunch of guys in a bar with the guitarist running the PA system which had one main mix and one monitor mix and only vocals in the PA. 

In terms of your other three criteria:

1.  I was not hired by the band and they did not adjust their on stage amp volume to suit my recording.
2.  The mics were placed where I wanted, but I certainly did not rearrange where the musicians were.
3.  There were vocals.

All three conditions were not met, yet I came away with a terrific recording.  Your assertation of 95% is laughable.  I have run these types of mixes a lot.  My experience has been that about 2/3 sound great and 1/3 are not usable.  Here are some other examples on the LMA that I did the same way:

http://www.archive.org/details/tbm2006-01-13-Matrix
http://www.archive.org/details/jbox2006-04-28-Matrix

This is one where the drums came out too loud.  This is about the limit of bad mix that I will tolerate and still spread:

http://www.archive.org/details/tbm2006-02-10-Matrix

Anything worse than that will be deleted and forgotten.

There's no way in hell a straight audience recording of any of these gigs would have come even close to the quality of the stage lip recording (even in the case of the one where the mix is a little off).  These are also done in venues where there was no soundman much less a monitor engineer, the PA mix was done on-stage by the musicians, and there were only vocal mics (with vocals and horns played through the vocal mics in the case of the Blue Method) or vocal mics plus a touch of kick drum in the SBD part of the feed.

These are not jazz or country or accoustic.  What say you?

I listened to Night and day of your recording.. It sounds like a small club tape but to say it sounds better then a out front mix with a good sound engineer is crazy sorry... Its a good tape of a stage sound but it does not sound better then I could make it with a real PA system sorry Not even close.... The mix is pretty good but the guitar solo is too low in the mix, and the bass is almost none existent and for R&B THATS DEATH.. as the bass guitar is the foundation I can hear the kick the balance is pretty good but the sound of the instruments is muffled and not very clear like a good out front mix would be.


You have to remember sound is very subjective. But I don't think anyone would argue this is not as well of a balanced recording as it could be that's not your fault you did not mix it. But its not as good as it could be with a proper PA and a good sound engineer. The tonality is not there not like it is with a good out front mix. If you want to capture the way things sounded is a small club I think you have done it. But its still not going to be as good as it could be with a real sound system and good room mic placement.. I don't see how you can argue that.



Chris Church

[it-goes-to-eleven]

It sounds like a small club tape but to say it sounds better then a out front mix with a good sound engineer is crazy sorry... Its a good tape of a stage sound but it does not sound better then I could make it with a real PA system sorry Not even close....

Chris, you are missing the point.  These bars VERY often do not have "real" PA systems!  They've got crap in crappy sounding rooms. You are talking what-if's that do not matter. They are not going to rent a "real" PA. We are focused on real world results. Anyone can be a great poker player if they can pick their own cards.

It isn't about what you could do with a particular sound system of your choosing. It is about what you can record on a given night while having no input on how the sound is done.

[NJFunk]

I listened to Night and day of your recording.. It sounds like a small club tape but to say it sounds better then a out front mix with a good sound engineer is crazy sorry... Its a good tape of a stage sound but it does not sound better then I could make it with a real PA system sorry Not even close.... The mix is pretty good but the guitar solo is too low in the mix, and the bass is almost none existent and for R&B THATS DEATH.. as the bass guitar is the foundation I can hear the kick the balance is pretty good but the sound of the instruments is muffled and not very clear like a good out front mix would be.


You have to remember sound is very subjective. But I don't think anyone would argue this is not as well of a balanced recording as it could be that's not your fault you did not mix it. But its not as good as it could be with a proper PA and a good sound engineer. The tonality is not there not like it is with a good out front mix. If you want to capture the way things sounded is a small club I think you have done it. But its still not going to be as good as it could be with a real sound system and good room mic placement.. I don't see how you can argue that.



Chris Church

First of all, I'm not sure which recording you can't hear the bass on.  The 1/13/06 bass is a little low, but it was a little low at the club, and there was no way to fix that other than to turn up the stage sound since there was no bass in the PA anyway.  At one point in that recording, you can hear the vocalist say "Dapp, turn yourself up" - Dapp is the bassist and the only way to turn him up is for him to do it himself on stage.  On the other recordings, the bass sounds fine to me.

So what's your solution?  You say "But its not as good as it could be with a proper PA and a good sound engineer."  But there is no "proper PA" nor a sound engineer at these clubs.  So what is your solution?  Bring a high end PA and a sound engineer with me?  Not tape the bands I like the most because the venue and the PA aren't up to your specifications?  Record in the audience anyway because it would sound better if it were a better venue (reference the two JHB recordings - the stage lip recording sounds way better than the audience)?  All of these recordings are the best they can be as stage recordings, yet you continue to argue that audience recordings would be better even though the conditions you put on it are unattainable in these circumstances.

[Church-Audio]

It sounds like a small club tape but to say it sounds better then a out front mix with a good sound engineer is crazy sorry... Its a good tape of a stage sound but it does not sound better then I could make it with a real PA system sorry Not even close....

Chris, you are missing the point.  These bars VERY often do not have "real" PA systems!  They've got crap in crappy sounding rooms. You are talking what-if's that do not matter. They are not going to rent a "real" PA. We are focused on real world results. Anyone can be a great poker player if they can pick their own cards.

It isn't about what you could do with a particular sound system of your choosing. It is about what you can record on a given night while having no input on how the sound is done.

I understand that MY POINT was, that a good stage recording ANY stage recording will not be as good as a GOOD room recording.. I know about shit bars and shit sound systems. Been there done that.. I am talking about when its all said and done, if your looking for the best sound quality in terms of balance and tonality a good stage recording of a good show in a good room is still not going to be the same as a good out front recording in a good room.. That's what I am saying. I think when you have a shit box PA you are better off taping the stage... But when you don't your better off taping the out front sound.. Some people are saying that No matter what your better off taping the stage I don't agree. And so far no one has been able to show me a good recording. That sounds even close to a good out front recording.. So I guess my point has been made..

[Church-Audio]

I listened to Night and day of your recording.. It sounds like a small club tape but to say it sounds better then a out front mix with a good sound engineer is crazy sorry... Its a good tape of a stage sound but it does not sound better then I could make it with a real PA system sorry Not even close.... The mix is pretty good but the guitar solo is too low in the mix, and the bass is almost none existent and for R&B THATS DEATH.. as the bass guitar is the foundation I can hear the kick the balance is pretty good but the sound of the instruments is muffled and not very clear like a good out front mix would be.


You have to remember sound is very subjective. But I don't think anyone would argue this is not as well of a balanced recording as it could be that's not your fault you did not mix it. But its not as good as it could be with a proper PA and a good sound engineer. The tonality is not there not like it is with a good out front mix. If you want to capture the way things sounded is a small club I think you have done it. But its still not going to be as good as it could be with a real sound system and good room mic placement.. I don't see how you can argue that.



Chris Church

First of all, I'm not sure which recording you can't hear the bass on.  The 1/13/06 bass is a little low, but it was a little low at the club, and there was no way to fix that other than to turn up the stage sound since there was no bass in the PA anyway.  At one point in that recording, you can hear the vocalist say "Dapp, turn yourself up" - Dapp is the bassist and the only way to turn him up is for him to do it himself on stage.  On the other recordings, the bass sounds fine to me.

So what's your solution?  You say "But its not as good as it could be with a proper PA and a good sound engineer."  But there is no "proper PA" nor a sound engineer at these clubs.  So what is your solution?  Bring a high end PA and a sound engineer with me?  Not tape the bands I like the most because the venue and the PA aren't up to your specifications?  Record in the audience anyway because it would sound better if it were a better venue (reference the two JHB recordings - the stage lip recording sounds way better than the audience)?  All of these recordings are the best they can be as stage recordings, yet you continue to argue that audience recordings would be better even though the conditions you put on it are unattainable in these circumstances.

I am saying that your recording is good its not as good as it would have been if a proper PA was there and if it was an out front recording... I am not saying you did not do a good job.... My whole point has been that people are saying recording the stage is the way to go I say no its not if the out front sound is good that's where your mics should be obviously if there ain't a PA system you have no choice but to stage tape... I never once said if there is no PA system tape in the audience anyway..... My whole point is take the same band put them with a good PA put the mics in the room and It will blow away any stage recording any day... That's what I am saying..... I am saying that in a situation where everything is ideal its more likely to get a better recording out front when the situation is not idea obviously your better off taping the source. That is why we have stack tapers.. Because they feel when the room is bad move the mics closer to the stacks.. That's a whole different can of worms..

[NJFunk]

It sounds like a small club tape but to say it sounds better then a out front mix with a good sound engineer is crazy sorry... Its a good tape of a stage sound but it does not sound better then I could make it with a real PA system sorry Not even close....

Chris, you are missing the point.  These bars VERY often do not have "real" PA systems!  They've got crap in crappy sounding rooms. You are talking what-if's that do not matter. They are not going to rent a "real" PA. We are focused on real world results. Anyone can be a great poker player if they can pick their own cards.

It isn't about what you could do with a particular sound system of your choosing. It is about what you can record on a given night while having no input on how the sound is done.

I understand that MY POINT was, that a good stage recording ANY stage recording will not be as good as a GOOD room recording.. I know about shit bars and shit sound systems. Been there done that.. I am talking about when its all said and done, if your looking for the best sound quality in terms of balance and tonality a good stage recording of a good show in a good room is still not going to be the same as a good out front recording in a good room.. That's what I am saying. I think when you have a shit box PA you are better off taping the stage... But when you don't your better off taping the out front sound.. Some people are saying that No matter what your better off taping the stage I don't agree. And so far no one has been able to show me a good recording. That sounds even close to a good out front recording.. So I guess my point has been made..

You've officially lost this argument.  You're both backtracking and making strawman arguments.  Your original argument from your first post in the thread was:

I personally do not know why ANYONE would run a onstage mic for a amplified performance the sound on stage always sucks! I mean I have spent 20 years as a live sound engineer I have done both monitors and front of house and in all my years I have heard maybe one or two shows that sounded really good on stage with a great balance. So IMO lose the on stage mics

Which is a far cry from:

a good stage recording of a good show in a good room is still not going to be the same as a good out front recording in a good room..

...

I think when you have a shit box PA you are better off taping the stage... But when you don't your better off taping the out front sound..

It's no longer "it always sucks and the audience is better" but rather "under very narrow circumstances that only I am allowed to define, audience is better".

Secondly, on this point:

Some people are saying that No matter what your better off taping the stage I don't agree.

This is a very poor strawman argument.  I defy you to find a single person in this thread that said that stage recordings are always preferable.  In fact, YOU are the one that said that stage recordings are NEVER preferable and it is us that have said "no, you have to consider the circumstances".

On this point:

And so far no one has been able to show me a good recording. That sounds even close to a good out front recording..

I don't have an A-B comparison of the same show, but I have provided you recordings of the same band in the same venue with the same PA recorded using the same mics/pre/A-D and the stage recording is 100X better.  I'll take my free mics now, thanks.

[rokpunk]

Mr. Church, what say you?

[Church-Audio]

It sounds like a small club tape but to say it sounds better then a out front mix with a good sound engineer is crazy sorry... Its a good tape of a stage sound but it does not sound better then I could make it with a real PA system sorry Not even close....

Chris, you are missing the point.  These bars VERY often do not have "real" PA systems!  They've got crap in crappy sounding rooms. You are talking what-if's that do not matter. They are not going to rent a "real" PA. We are focused on real world results. Anyone can be a great poker player if they can pick their own cards.

It isn't about what you could do with a particular sound system of your choosing. It is about what you can record on a given night while having no input on how the sound is done.

I understand that MY POINT was, that a good stage recording ANY stage recording will not be as good as a GOOD room recording.. I know about shit bars and shit sound systems. Been there done that.. I am talking about when its all said and done, if your looking for the best sound quality in terms of balance and tonality a good stage recording of a good show in a good room is still not going to be the same as a good out front recording in a good room.. That's what I am saying. I think when you have a shit box PA you are better off taping the stage... But when you don't your better off taping the out front sound.. Some people are saying that No matter what your better off taping the stage I don't agree. And so far no one has been able to show me a good recording. That sounds even close to a good out front recording.. So I guess my point has been made..

You've officially lost this argument.  You're both backtracking and making strawman arguments.  Your original argument from your first post in the thread was:

I personally do not know why ANYONE would run a onstage mic for a amplified performance the sound on stage always sucks! I mean I have spent 20 years as a live sound engineer I have done both monitors and front of house and in all my years I have heard maybe one or two shows that sounded really good on stage with a great balance. So IMO lose the on stage mics

Which is a far cry from:

a good stage recording of a good show in a good room is still not going to be the same as a good out front recording in a good room..

...

I think when you have a shit box PA you are better off taping the stage... But when you don't your better off taping the out front sound..

It's no longer "it always sucks and the audience is better" but rather "under very narrow circumstances that only I am allowed to define, audience is better".

Secondly, on this point:

Some people are saying that No matter what your better off taping the stage I don't agree.

This is a very poor strawman argument.  I defy you to find a single person in this thread that said that stage recordings are always preferable.  In fact, YOU are the one that said that stage recordings are NEVER preferable and it is us that have said "no, you have to consider the circumstances".

On this point:

And so far no one has been able to show me a good recording. That sounds even close to a good out front recording..

I don't have an A-B comparison of the same show, but I have provided you recordings of the same band in the same venue with the same PA recorded using the same mics/pre/A-D and the stage recording is 100X better.  I'll take my free mics now, thanks.

Your missing the point of my argument.... I said the best on stage tape will not even come close to the best out front tape and I stand by my words I did not lose the argument the recording you provided me was not as good as a good out front mix would be.... Sorry..... No free mics yet. I am still waiting for a good balanced onstage recording with a rock band with vocals... Please show me the tape... I am all ears..

[Church-Audio]

Mr. Church, what say you?

I still stand by my words this is a moronic argument... ok what sounds better at a REAL CONCERT the on stage sound or the sound of the PA system when the sound system is good?? Please why are we even going here??? I mean if the stage sound was so good why have a PA system in the first place? why not just tell everyone to shut the hell up and listen to the stage sound? Or hell why not just stick a few mics up infront of the stage and put that thru the PA..... LOL please......

This is a dumb argument, I never should have started because it seems no one understands what I am trying to say.. maybe I am the dummy for not being able to explain my self.... oh well I am still waiting for the stage recording that blows away the best out front mix I have ever heard, still no one has given me such a recording....

Chris Church

[NJFunk]

oh well I am still waiting for the stage recording that blows away the best out front mix I have ever heard, still no one has given me such a recording....

Chris Church

You've got to be kidding.  So now we have to come up with a stage source that blows away every audience recording ever made to prove you wrong?!?  When your original statement was "I personally do not know why ANYONE would run a onstage mic for a amplified performance"?!?  Don't you see how different those two premises are?!?  We've provided plenty of examples of why we would run onstage mics for amplified performances and get better results than the audience tape in that situation, but I don't think that anyone in their right mind would claim they have a recording that blows away every audience recording ever made, even if they really did. 

Your attempts to talk your way out of a box are getting weaker by the reply.  You should just admit defeat and take your medicine like a man.  I don't even want the mics.  In re-reading the thread, by the time you offered the mics, you had already started backtracking and said that the tape had to have all of the indstruments in the PA, which was not the case for my recording, so keep your mics. but please, just end the charade.

[grider]

we're just talking two different languages, or perhaps the same language but about two different ideas in this thread it seems; a front of house sound engineer is basically saying that in a good sounding room with a great mix a recording made in the sweet spot can't be beat, and I would probably agree with that; and us tapers are saying that in a shitty sounding room or a room with nowhere to stand or a really loud room or even a good sounding room with a shitty mix, then taping closer to the source, by on stage or stage lip placement, can't be beat; I *think* we can all agree on that; the disagreement seems to arise regarding preferences about *taping in a good sounding room with a good mix and the sweet spot is available*, in which tapers often would often still choose the stage or stage lip and, understandably, an experienced sound engineer like Chris who mixes for a living and stands in the sweet spot would always choose that sweet spot in the room to tape from instead, I see both viewpoints now

[it-goes-to-eleven]

M:   Ah. I'd like to have an argument, please.
R:    Certainly sir. Have you been here before?
M:   No, I haven't, this is my first time.
R:     I see. Well, do you want to have just one argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?
M:   Well, what is the cost?
R:    Well, It's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.
M:   Well, I think it would be best if I perhaps started off with just the one and then see how it goes.
R:     Fine. Well, I'll see who's free at the moment.
Pause
R:    Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory.
Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12.
M:    Thank you.

(Walks down the hall. Opens door.)

Q:   WHAT DO YOU WANT?
M:   Well, I was told outside that...
Q:   Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings!
M:   What?
Q:   Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!!
M:   Look, I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT, I'm not going to just stand...!!
Q:   OH, oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse.
M:   Oh, I see, well, that explains it.
Q:   Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.
M:   Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry.
Q:   Not at all.
M:   Thank You.
(Under his breath) Stupid git!!

(Walk down the corridor)

[todd e]

chris,

even you admitted at the first post that you may get people's panties in a wab, by stating this, so you knew it was coming. 
if i had all of those 'ideal pa' systems at my disposal i would rather them than an onstage, but MOST don't and have to come away with a better sounding tape, if possible.  onstage for a majority of settings, with a band that doesn't have vocal, works for a lot of us.  you may disagree, but we should simply agree to disagree.

[Church-Audio]

my lastest pipe organ recordings will smash your loudest pa recording, flat.

I am talking about a rock band Not a pipe organ how else would you mic a pipe organ but acoustically???


This argument is over no one gets my point so I am taking my toys and going home..

[Church-Audio]

chris,

even you admitted at the first post that you may get people's panties in a wab, by stating this, so you knew it was coming. 
if i had all of those 'ideal pa' systems at my disposal i would rather them than an onstage, but MOST don't and have to come away with a better sounding tape, if possible.  onstage for a majority of settings, with a band that doesn't have vocal, works for a lot of us.  you may disagree, but we should simply agree to disagree.

I knew that yes for sure.. I was just saying that IMO the best stage recording can not compete against the best audience recording with a good PA system for a rock band or any band that has vocals and everything is going thru the PA system.. Thats all..  I think if you dont have a PA system and a good sounding room good sounding mix what choice do you have but to stage tape but when you have a good room with a good sound system and a good mix why would you bother?

[grider]

my lastest pipe organ recordings will smash your loudest pa recording, flat.

I am talking about a rock band Not a pipe organ how else would you mic a pipe organ but acoustically???


This argument is over no one gets my point so I am taking my toys and going home..

+T for ending the round and around and around.... its the weekend people, let's power down and drink!!!

[Church-Audio]

we're just talking two different languages, or perhaps the same language but about two different ideas in this thread it seems; a front of house sound engineer is basically saying that in a good sounding room with a great mix a recording made in the sweet spot can't be beat, and I would probably agree with that; and us tapers are saying that in a shitty sounding room or a room with nowhere to stand or a really loud room or even a good sounding room with a shitty mix, then taping closer to the source, by on stage or stage lip placement, can't be beat; I *think* we can all agree on that; the disagreement seems to arise regarding preferences about *taping in a good sounding room with a good mix and the sweet spot is available*, in which tapers often would often still choose the stage or stage lip and, understandably, an experienced sound engineer like Chris who mixes for a living and stands in the sweet spot would always choose that sweet spot in the room to tape from instead, I see both viewpoints now

Thank you for saying that.. I was just trying to say that when the moon is aligned with the stars and you have a good sounding room with a good sounding PA and you can place your mics somewhere in the middle of the room dead center That you will end up with a very good recording that will beat any stage recording.. for an amplified performance if the mix out front is good and the sound engineer has his act together..

I never get the sweet spot when I mix I am always in the back of the room Unless your Lionel Richie I did a show for him 3 years ago as the system tech it was a corporate show in Toronto Ontario. His sound engineer David Morgan He did a great job he is the same guy that mixes Steely Dan, Paul Simon, Bette Midler. and Many more requested that our console be placed in the center of this small 350 seat theater when your David Morgan you get what you want. The staff at the theater had to remove 15 seats to accommodate our Midas xl4 console 64 input... And all of the effects racks ect.. This happens in big shows in small shows we go where we are told to go and that's it.. I guess it becomes a sweet spot for some engineers because they try and make it sound good at the back of the room. I just try and make it sound good where the people are..

I often get the worst sound... That's another reason why most people don't get good recordings in the back of the room.. I think that having an understanding of room acoustics and looking around at what your situation is can give people an edge with the live recordings they are trying to produce.. All I ever try to do is help. I don't have years of experience as a taper.. Like most of you I have years of experience on the other side of the fence, I only wanted to help some understand what its like from our end of things.. Some people get offended, I am sorry I offended anyone facts are facts in 20 years I have heard much better sound coming from the PA then from the stage... As a matter of fact that's why bands hire me so that they will sound better then they do with out the PA. That's the front of house engineers job... So that's my observation..

In a small club where there is no David Morgan or Chris Church LOL... or good PA system you have no choice but to stage tape.... But when you do have a choice and the sound is good out front and you can get into a good spot nothing can beat that sound. That is the sound the band really wants to hear from you guys.... They want to know what it was like to be out there in the crowd that is something they can never do.. sure that can go and listen to the opening act... But its not the same to them.. When there is no PA then they just want a recording of the performance the way it sounded, with as much clarity as possible.. I will say the main reason I got into making mics and preamps was so that bands I worked with could hear the mix out front and know how it was. Since board tapes don't tell you anything microphones are the only way to capture the event the way it really happened.. That's what you guys are you are our recorders your the proof that on that day Our work as sound engineers was good.  And you captured it. For me what I do is not just science its art...

I wish I had more recordings of shows I have mixed but I don't because I never really bothered. Even now I still don't tape very many of my shows. Some sound engineers hate you guys. They hate you because they are afraid of getting caught with a shitty mix.. And having the band find out they really do suck.. I don't agree with that but its the way they feel... Some bands hate you because they think your going to sell there music. I think you guys perform a service. if it was not for you guys show would disappear into space and never be repeated.. I cant tell you how sad I am all the shows I have done I don't have much of a record of them they are all just memories in my head. I wish I had tapers around to record them. So I say thanks for the work you do. This is my way of thanking you by spending time writing this shit maybe some of you agree maybe not. But maybe one person will listen and maybe I can be lucky enough to pass on what little I know about audio to them. I think that's a good thing to spend time on. Because when I started out no one helped me.

So thanks for your kind words.

Chris Church
 

[todd e]

+T for a good honest discussion, without a flame out..

it's not like i'll forget this, so for that, i guess i can at least think about what you are saying (if nothing more to try and test it in the future)

have a good one.

[NJFunk]

I was just trying to say that when the moon is aligned with the stars and you have a good sounding room with a good sounding PA and you can place your mics somewhere in the middle of the room dead center That you will end up with a very good recording that will beat any stage recording.. for an amplified performance if the mix out front is good and the sound engineer has his act together..

Chris Church
 

That's what you were trying to say when you actually said this?

I personally do not know why ANYONE would run a onstage mic for a amplified performance the sound on stage always sucks!

Where in that statement is it qualified with "you have a good sounding room with a good sounding PA and you can place your mics somewhere in the middle of the room dead center"?  When "you have a good sounding room with a good sounding PA and you can place your mics somewhere in the middle of the room dead center" is not your point but rather is the what you backtracked to when you needed a point that you could actually defend.  This is something that you need to at least acknowledge before I let it go.

[sygdwm]

w/o quoting, i find it funny that the later replies included wanting to hear a ROCK band w/ vocals recorded on stage, where it was clearly stated that recording vocals was never the plan when recording onstage.

[baustin]

I would love to hear a recording of just the stage I don't think anyone has made one that sounds anywhere near as good as a really good front of house mix....  As a matter of fact I will bet the first person who sends me a recording that sounds as good as a out front recording I will give that person a FREE SET OF MY CARDIOID MICS.  Just to Clarify I am only giving away 1 set of mics Not 4,000 sets OK.... So who ever sends me the first recording that I deem to be as good as a out front mix of an amplifyed band meaning EVERYTHING GOING IN TO THE P.A SYSTEM. I will honor my bet... And I will fair an impartial..This mix can only have THE ON STAGE MICS ONLY! NOT JAZZ OR COUNTRY MUST BE ROCK! we all know jazz bands always sound good so does country...


That's the true test. IMO
Chris Church

Truly amazing onstage recordings IMHO. I wish every recording I made could sound like either of these. The onstage Vintage Neumann recording absolutely smokes!

Off the top of my head, grab the Five B4 Funk from each of these shows.

Dr. Bob's onstage Nak's of KVHW 09-19-1999: http://www.archive.org/details/kvhw1999-09-19.shnf

Brian Frost's onstage Vintage Neumann's~>Manley mic pre, SKB 04-20-2002: http://www.archive.org/details/skb2002-04-20.shnf

-ba

[NJFunk]

All right fellas, have a good night.  I'm off to make another shitty stage lip recording...

[Church-Audio]

I was just trying to say that when the moon is aligned with the stars and you have a good sounding room with a good sounding PA and you can place your mics somewhere in the middle of the room dead center That you will end up with a very good recording that will beat any stage recording.. for an amplified performance if the mix out front is good and the sound engineer has his act together..

Chris Church
 

That's what you were trying to say when you actually said this?

I personally do not know why ANYONE would run a onstage mic for a amplified performance the sound on stage always sucks!

Where in that statement is it qualified with "you have a good sounding room with a good sounding PA and you can place your mics somewhere in the middle of the room dead center"?  When "you have a good sounding room with a good sounding PA and you can place your mics somewhere in the middle of the room dead center" is not your point but rather is the what you backtracked to when you needed a point that you could actually defend.  This is something that you need to at least acknowledge before I let it go.

Say what you want I never backtracked I only wanted to quantify my statement with added clarity so everyone could understand including you.. What I meant by my first statement. For those who know me I am not the type to backtrack, say what you will about me say, I don't know what the hell I am talking about. At the end of the day, I know who I am and I know what I know.... Lets just drop this......... I am done, I have said what I said and I am not ever going to back down from my point. I have seen this time and time again in real situations in real venues. With real bands...  And no one has yet provided me with the proof that I am wrong....

Chris Church

[NJFunk]

Thanks folks for the advice... +Ts all around

I personally do not know why ANYONE would run a onstage mic for a amplified performance the sound on stage always sucks! I mean I have spent 20 years as a live sound engineer I have done both monitors and front of house and in all my years I have heard maybe one or two shows that sounded really good on stage with a great balance. So IMO lose the on stage mics

Hmm, this seems to be the clearest thing you said in the whole discussion.

[Church-Audio]

w/o quoting, i find it funny that the later replies included wanting to hear a ROCK band w/ vocals recorded on stage, where it was clearly stated that recording vocals was never the plan when recording onstage.

I was talking about a rock band from the beginning of this thread.... When someone points out a three peace band with no vocals, A moron could get the balance right on stage with very little problems... So its a unfair comparison. I am and always was talking about a ROCK band or a situation where everything is going thru a PA system and a monitor system on stage and it sounds good out front....


If you don't have vocals and you don't have a PA how else are you going to take the show but on stage lol??

I think some people think I don't get the point of stage taping. I mean do you think there is a situation I have not been thru in 20 years as a sound engineer working with the bands I have worked with?? where I would not understand a pretty basic principal of recording a live performance.... Oh of course you do because you don't respect me, why because its easier for people to throw shit then to throw complements or just listen to new ideas... Right?  Every single time I say something about live sound and about shows and try to help people around here it gets cut down. It makes me so sad it really reminds me of high school...... Why cant we respect peoples ideas I respect the fact that stage taping is necessary for some shows and its the only solution when the PA SUCKS or is none existent.

Believe what you will twist my words. I am just giving an opinion I asked someone to prove me wrong all you guys can do is point out discrepancies in my words SHOW ME THE GREAT STAGE RECORDING!!!.... prove me wrong with stage recording that sounds as good as a good out front mix and I will say I was wrong....

[rokpunk]

This argument is over no one gets my point so I am taking my toys and going home..

But only after 4 more posts and a bunch of name dropping....         






modified for post recount

[Church-Audio]

This argument is over no one gets my point so I am taking my toys and going home..

But only after 4 more posts and a bunch of name dropping....         


I don't get your point actually... Name dropping like I am bragging or something is that what you mean?

LOL me Bragg that's funny.... I am the last person who Bragg's about the gigs I have done. I think you have be all wrong here. 





modified for post recount

[rokpunk]

I don't get your point actually... Name dropping like I am bragging or something is that what you mean?

LOL me Bragg that's funny.... I am the last person who Bragg's about the gigs I have done.

Lionel Richie
David Morgan
Steely Dan
Paul Simon
Bette Midler
and Many more


nah, no names there.

[Church-Audio]

I don't get your point actually... Name dropping like I am bragging or something is that what you mean?

LOL me Bragg that's funny.... I am the last person who Bragg's about the gigs I have done.

Lionel Richie
David Morgan
Steely Dan
Paul Simon
Bette Midler
and Many more


nah, no names there.

Yah and I have done sound for NONE OF THEM! lol whats your point, maybe some people would be interested in knowing who and what I have done. Or maybe some people would be interested in knowing the guys name that does sound for these bands, so that when they hear the sound of the band in question they will know who's behind the console. Or would you rather just tape his show and no know who it is you should thank for your high quality recording in the first place? you little shit... I am done, say what you want this has gone into the realm of being personal. I will not go there. Mr Midas->Klark Teknik->Meyer Sound like that's not bragging lol Here's a hint no one uses Klark anymore its OLD SCHOOL. So if you really want to show off your brand name knowledge try using a name like Lake audio....
 

[NJFunk]

w/o quoting, i find it funny that the later replies included wanting to hear a ROCK band w/ vocals recorded on stage, where it was clearly stated that recording vocals was never the plan when recording onstage.

I was talking about a rock band from the beginning of this thread.... When someone points out a three peace band with no vocals, A moron could get the balance right on stage with very little problems... So its a unfair comparison. I am and always was talking about a ROCK band or a situation where everything is going thru a PA system and a monitor system on stage and it sounds good out front....

It's sad that I have to quote you your own words so many times, but here it is again:

I personally do not know why ANYONE would run a onstage mic for a amplified performance the sound on stage always sucks! I mean I have spent 20 years as a live sound engineer I have done both monitors and front of house and in all my years I have heard maybe one or two shows that sounded really good on stage with a great balance. So IMO lose the on stage mics

There's no mention of "just rock bands with high quality sound systems and great engineers" anywhere in there. In fact, the blanket statement "So IMO lose the on stage mics " leaves NO ROOM for exceptions at all.

If you don't have vocals and you don't have a PA how else are you going to take the show but on stage lol??

I think some people think I don't get the point of stage taping. I mean do you think there is a situation I have not been thru in 20 years as a sound engineer working with the bands I have worked with?? where I would not understand a pretty basic principal of recording a live performance....

But, in your 20 years, apparently, there were only ONE or TWO shows where the stage sounded good (and one of those was apparently Bon Jovi, who the hell here is comtemplating a stage tape of Bon Jovi?!?), and that we should lose the stage mics.  That's your words. Now, you're backtracking and saying you HAVE run across those situations and you DO understand where there is a good use for it.  Which is it?

Oh of course you do because you don't respect me, why because its easier for people to throw shit then to throw complements or just listen to new ideas... Right?  

Doctor, heal thyself.  You're the one who was telling us to "lose the stage mics" and won't listen to new ideas when we point out valid exceptions.

Every single time I say something about live sound and about shows and try to help people around here it gets cut down.

Does that happen to everyone here or just you?  Maybe you should consider why just your ideas get cut down.

Why cant we respect peoples ideas I respect the fact that stage taping is necessary for some shows and its the only solution when the PA SUCKS or is none existent.

Again, how does "lose the stage mics" in any way acknowledge that stage taping is necessary in some circumstances?!?

Believe what you will twist my words. I am just giving an opinion I asked someone to prove me wrong all you guys can do is point out discrepancies in my words SHOW ME THE GREAT STAGE RECORDING!!!.... prove me wrong with stage recording that sounds as good as a good out front mix and I will say I was wrong....

I did.  I provided an example, which you've still never addressed.  Of the two JHB recordings that I linked, which is better?  I don't care whether it's better than the best audience tape that you've ever heard, I'm talking about this particular situation where there are two recordings in the same venue with the same band, same PA, same mics, and same gear.  If we should "lose the stage mics", there should be NO situations where the stage recording is better.  In this case, is the stage recording better?  If not, I'd love to hear your reasons why, because it is better in every way.

[Church-Audio]

w/o quoting, i find it funny that the later replies included wanting to hear a ROCK band w/ vocals recorded on stage, where it was clearly stated that recording vocals was never the plan when recording onstage.

I was talking about a rock band from the beginning of this thread.... When someone points out a three peace band with no vocals, A moron could get the balance right on stage with very little problems... So its a unfair comparison. I am and always was talking about a ROCK band or a situation where everything is going thru a PA system and a monitor system on stage and it sounds good out front....

It's sad that I have to quote you your own words so many times, but here it is again:

I personally do not know why ANYONE would run a onstage mic for a amplified performance the sound on stage always sucks! I mean I have spent 20 years as a live sound engineer I have done both monitors and front of house and in all my years I have heard maybe one or two shows that sounded really good on stage with a great balance. So IMO lose the on stage mics

There's no mention of "just rock bands with high quality sound systems and great engineers" anywhere in there. In fact, the blanket statement "So IMO lose the on stage mics " leaves NO ROOM for exceptions at all.

If you don't have vocals and you don't have a PA how else are you going to take the show but on stage lol??

I think some people think I don't get the point of stage taping. I mean do you think there is a situation I have not been thru in 20 years as a sound engineer working with the bands I have worked with?? where I would not understand a pretty basic principal of recording a live performance....

But, in your 20 years, apparently, there were only ONE or TWO shows where the stage sounded good (and one of those was apparently Bon Jovi, who the hell here is comtemplating a stage tape of Bon Jovi?!?), and that we should lose the stage mics.  That's your words. Now, you're backtracking and saying you HAVE run across those situations and you DO understand where there is a good use for it.  Which is it?

Oh of course you do because you don't respect me, why because its easier for people to throw shit then to throw complements or just listen to new ideas... Right?  

Doctor, heal thyself.  You're the one who was telling us to "lose the stage mics" and won't listen to new ideas when we point out valid exceptions.

Every single time I say something about live sound and about shows and try to help people around here it gets cut down.

Does that happen to everyone here or just you?  Maybe you should consider why just your ideas get cut down.

Why cant we respect peoples ideas I respect the fact that stage taping is necessary for some shows and its the only solution when the PA SUCKS or is none existent.

Again, how does "lose the stage mics" in any way acknowledge that stage taping is necessary in some circumstances?!?

Believe what you will twist my words. I am just giving an opinion I asked someone to prove me wrong all you guys can do is point out discrepancies in my words SHOW ME THE GREAT STAGE RECORDING!!!.... prove me wrong with stage recording that sounds as good as a good out front mix and I will say I was wrong....

I did.  I provided an example, which you've still never addressed.  Of the two JHB recordings that I linked, which is better?  I don't care whether it's better than the best audience tape that you've ever heard, I'm talking about this particular situation where there are two recordings in the same venue with the same band, same PA, same mics, and same gear.  If we should "lose the stage mics", there should be NO situations where the stage recording is better.  In this case, is the stage recording better?  If not, I'd love to hear your reasons why, because it is better in every way.

I think this descussion is done.

I am wrong you are 100% correct I should not have posted anything about stage sound as I dont really know what I am talking about.

[rokpunk]

why do i get the feeling that this discussion is not really done?

[NJFunk]

I think this descussion is done.

I am wrong you are 100% correct I should not have posted anything about stage sound as I dont really know what I am talking about.

Thank you.  That's all I need.  I am done with this discussion as well.

[pilgrims622]

a good stage recording ANY stage recording will not be as good as a GOOD room recording..

And so far no one has been able to show me a good recording. That sounds even close to a good out front recording.. So I guess my point has been made..

not trying to keep this argument going...thought I share an example of my onstage and someones elses room recording

here ya go...
my onstage source...http://www.archive.org/details/tlg2006-03-17.4micmix.flac16
someone elses room recording...http://www.archive.org/details/tlg_2006-03-17.c34.flac16

[baustin]

gonna try to run onstage neumann u89i's tonight with a sbd feed for tishamingo tonight. not quite the same, but i like it!