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Author Topic: 24 bit > 16 bit  (Read 26389 times)

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Offline Belexes

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24 bit > 16 bit
« on: August 31, 2007, 09:08:42 AM »
If I record at 24 bit, but then dither it to 16 bit, is it not just like recording 16 bit in the first place or is there some advantage to this other than most people don't want DVD-A's of the concerts?
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Offline BC

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2007, 05:15:07 PM »
you can be more conservative setting your levels during the performance and still preserve dynamic range for the dithered 16 bit version. Also if you do any editing you will have better results doing the editing at 24 bit.


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Offline boojum

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2007, 07:00:48 PM »
^^^^ Two best reasons right there: greater headroom when recording and the ability to master in 24 bit means fewer artifacts.    8)
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Offline Belexes

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2007, 04:47:54 AM »
I like the headroom.  :D

I don't do much with my recordings in terms of mastering and usually leave them raw other than possible fades and track splitting.

I may try 24 bit for Joe Bonamassa on Sunday and see what I capture.  Thanks guys.
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2007, 08:27:12 AM »
better headroom, better dynamics(right?) and just more resolution overall, therev are millions of samples per second compared to thousands too I believe. sorry, its been a LONG nite for me and my terminology isnt exactly great right now. I only add gain/resample from 48k>44.1k and use the Apogee UV22HR dither. on my most recent 8/30 recordings, the lowend was kind of light at the show,a nd I simply added +3-4db low-end gain in Wavelab's multiband compressor and it really fiolled out the tape very nicely. JUST ENOUGH bass/lowend now! But I def dont do alot of editing and have only added lowend on maybe 5 sets in the last 3 years so I am also a minimalist as well and like to keep it simple.

Overall, 24-bit just has more resolution and if you read up on the technical aspect of 24 vs. 16-bit, you will never want to record 16-bit again. I do dither EVERY show to 16-bit for the masses for easy spreading of shows online, but I also upload my 24-bit flacs to archive.org for the folks(mainly tapers) that can take advantage and appreciate the higher resolution 24-bit files......I can def hear a huge difference between 24 and 16-bit especially on my good headphones(cans). on teh headphones the difference REALLY jumps out at you/me :)

And like they said, you can run more conservatively in 24-bit since you dont have to get the most out of your levels like in 16-bit, and you can easily add gain in post to get near 0db(I do anyways). and when adding the gain in 24-bit, the noise floor ratio is SO LOW in 24-bit, you hear ZERO noise(I cant anyway) even adding up to +12db of gain in 24-bit in post. if you were to add +12db of gain in 16-bit, you would most definitely hear a good bit of noise added to the signal.

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Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2007, 09:10:02 AM »
Another benefit is that 24-bit sounds better in playback.  You might not care right now, but if you eventually upgrade to a high resolution 24-bit playback system, you'll be stunned at the audible difference and happy that your old masters were recorded that way.  I've asked some people if they had their DVD played connected to their stereo and then sent them the 24-bit stuff too and often they comment on the difference.
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Offline Belexes

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2007, 12:12:00 PM »
What programs do you guys use to burn DVD-A's with your 24 bit masters?  I have Nero and I don't think it has DVD-A capability (?).  Must be some open source programs out there?

I just got the R-09 and with only a 2 gig card I was worried about running out of space when recording 24 bit, so my first master was 16 bit.  I now have a 4 gig card and want to run 24 bit.
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Offline StuStu

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2007, 05:59:26 PM »
What programs do you guys use to burn DVD-A's with your 24 bit masters?  I have Nero and I don't think it has DVD-A capability (?).  Must be some open source programs out there?

I just got the R-09 and with only a 2 gig card I was worried about running out of space when recording 24 bit, so my first master was 16 bit.  I now have a 4 gig card and want to run 24 bit.

I use DVD-Audiofile or Lplex. Both programs are free and pretty simple to use. These programs will create an image file.

For Nero: In the "Backup" tab select "Burn Image to Disc." You'll love the sound of your 24-bit recordings. Enjoy!  :headphones:
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Offline boojum

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2007, 06:26:56 PM »
To understand why there is better detail and dynamic range, understand that 16 bit is 2 to the 16th power; 24 bit is 2 to the 24th power.  This is a huge difference.  Another way to understand it is to look at the old computer game of Pong and then see what they are doing now with games.  Same thing: longer words (more bits).

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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2007, 12:33:16 PM »
no, its not
if so 24 bit files would be  256  times larger than a 16-bit recording

its really (for 48K audio)
16 bit: 48000 samples/sec x 2 channels x 16 bits/sample = about 1.5 Mbits/sec
24 bit: 48000 samples/sec x 2 channels x 24 bits/sample = about 2.3 Mbits/sec

the advantage is of course increased headroom, each bit is 6 dB or resolution
16 bit = 96 dB of dynamic range
24 bit = 144 dB of dynamic range.

The best gear out there tops out at about 120 dB of dynamic range, which means that:
a) you cant capture all of the sound in 16 bits.
b) you can capture all of the sound in 24 bits, even if your peaking at about -24dB

while people say 'theres more headroom when you record in 24 bit', this headroom DOES NOT translate to 16 bit unless you normalize it while in the 24 bit realm

in other words, take a 24 bit recording that peaks at -24 dB. the dynamic range is 120 dB. if you convert this to 16 bit with no normalization, your new dynamic range is 96-24dB=72 dB (not so good).

If you were to normalize the 24-bit file to 0 dB, youd still have a dynamic range of 120 dB (you amplified the noise too), then when you dither and convert it to 16 bit, you have the full 96 dB of headroom.

i hope that makes sense.




To understand why there is better detail and dynamic range, understand that 16 bit is 2 to the 16th power; 24 bit is 2 to the 24th power. 
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Offline boojum

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2007, 12:37:47 PM »
^^^^ JF - I think you are right.  It is a 24 bit word as opposed to a 16 bit word.
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Offline svenkid

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2007, 03:46:23 PM »
thanks for the nero tip!

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Offline taosmay

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2007, 08:47:11 PM »
What programs do you guys use to burn DVD-A's with your 24 bit masters?  I have Nero and I don't think it has DVD-A capability (?).  Must be some open source programs out there?

I just got the R-09 and with only a 2 gig card I was worried about running out of space when recording 24 bit, so my first master was 16 bit.  I now have a 4 gig card and want to run 24 bit.

I use DVD-Audiofile or Lplex. Both programs are free and pretty simple to use. These programs will create an image file.

For Nero: In the "Backup" tab select "Burn Image to Disc." You'll love the sound of your 24-bit recordings. Enjoy!  :headphones:

Do DVD-Audiofile and/or Lplex work on Mac's? If not, what programs will?
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2007, 11:43:38 PM »
What programs do you guys use to burn DVD-A's with your 24 bit masters?  I have Nero and I don't think it has DVD-A capability (?).  Must be some open source programs out there?

I just got the R-09 and with only a 2 gig card I was worried about running out of space when recording 24 bit, so my first master was 16 bit.  I now have a 4 gig card and want to run 24 bit.

As far as the R09 goes, there is no benefit to going 24bit.  The noise floor (if you short the inputs) is about -90dB, so it is good to only about 15 bits anyway.  (Recall, one bit gives you 6dB of dynamic range, so 16 bits is 16x6 = 96dB of dynamic range.)

On better gear, you are *lucky* to get 18bits, so that is 2 more bits, or 12dB more dynamics range than a 16 bit recording.

The upshot is: go 16 bit on low end gear, go 24 bit on high end gear, but don't expect more than about 12dB dynamic range.  In practice, this allows you to get *a bit* more detail, or, if your destination is 16 bits only, you can run the inputs a bit lower and have some headroom.

I run my Edirol R09 at 16 bit.  On my Edirol R4 I run 24 bit, and leave 12dB headroom.  I mix both down to 16 bit for archiving.

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Offline Will_S

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2007, 12:30:43 AM »
What programs do you guys use to burn DVD-A's with your 24 bit masters?  I have Nero and I don't think it has DVD-A capability (?).  Must be some open source programs out there?

I just got the R-09 and with only a 2 gig card I was worried about running out of space when recording 24 bit, so my first master was 16 bit.  I now have a 4 gig card and want to run 24 bit.

As far as the R09 goes, there is no benefit to going 24bit.  The noise floor (if you short the inputs) is about -90dB, so it is good to only about 15 bits anyway.  (Recall, one bit gives you 6dB of dynamic range, so 16 bits is 16x6 = 96dB of dynamic range.)

Do I understand correctly that this noise floor is inherent to the analog parts of the ADC, and independent of the preamp/gain settings?  Therefore meaning (I think) that with the Edirol it is NOT a good idea to run 24 bit with conservative levels (say peaks at -12 dB) and boot in post / dither to 16 bit later, as doing so will result in an effective dynaimc range of ~ 14 bits?

Any advantage to recording in 24 bit (but with hotter levels) for stuff that is going to undergo significant postprocessing, eg mixing down a mid-side recording?

Also, could it be that random/analog noise is somehow less objectionable that quantization noise, and so there can still be some advantage to running 24 bit even with gear that has a noise floor close to but slightly above the 16 bit dynamic range limit?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 12:33:36 AM by Will_S »

 

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