Topic: Experience with Milab VM-44 Link?

[ArchivalAudio]

Hey
so I saw that ToddR fluffed his Milab VM44 Link mics in a YS iso-KM140 posting...

wondering a bit more

I really like (for my ears) the Neumann sound of the SKM 140's, and the SKM184's as well

I can't really afford the 140's at the moment
but have been considering the 184s

how does the sound compare?

does anyone have any samples of the VM-44 links in action?


specs here
http://www.milabmic.com/showproduct.asp?id=1128&show=specs

they look sweet...
Are they available as matched pairs?

apparently Full Compass is a dealer but the VM 44 classic or the VM 44 links are not listed on their site...

they seem reasonably priced

anyone have more info?

thanx
-- Ian

[flipp]

stirinthesauce runs the links and I know he has posted samples of some of his recordings before. You can do a search and probably find some of them. I believe he is on vacation at the moment but when he returns he should be able to answer most questions you may have.

[kgreener]

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=milab%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

[ArchivalAudio]

stirinthesauce runs the links and I know he has posted samples of some of his recordings before. You can do a search and probably find some of them. I believe he is on vacation at the moment but when he returns he should be able to answer most questions you may have.

cool
&
thanx

[ArchivalAudio]

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=milab%20AND%20collection%3Aetree

oh...
thanx
I guess I could have don that search... I didn't think of it

this is great tons of different venues and bands


how bout some personal opinions about the sound of these mics?

-- Ian

[Todd R]

I just posted some more in the YS post.

I ran small diameter Neumanns for about 3 1/2 years, and do really like their sound, and am very familiar with it.  To me, the milabs if they were to be compared, sound most like SD neumanns, much moreso than they do schoeps (not really at all), AKGs (ran those for a couple years as well), or DPAs.  Somewhat like the AKGs and DPAs, but not really.

The Milabs sound a lot like the neumanns in the mids and highs -- very smooth enjoyable mids, silky highs with no distortion, but with high end emphasis.  On the lows, I find the milabs to be both fuller and much tauter than the neumanns.  I find the neumanns to be just a tad loose in the lows.  The milabs are the opposite -- very taut, perhaps verging on too taut depending on your tastes.

I've got a few things up on the Archive you could listen to, including a STS9 show at the Boulder theater (small theater) where they brought in their own, very nice PA system, so that show is a good one for taking a listen.  Matt H has a bunch of milab shows up on the Archive.  Scott schneider has a TLG show up there that we both taped (same stand, fob) where he had problems the first few minutes, and patched with my source.  Do a search on "schneider milab" on the Archive and you'll find it.  It's only a couple minutes of my milab source, but it might be good for a milab>grace vs DPA>grace comparison.

With the midi-classic.com site Matt H posted in the retail section, I'd guess you might be able to pick up a pair of Milab VM44-links for under $1500, which is a steal IMO.

Oh BTW, they are available in matched pairs, but the matching charge is about $300-400 so I skipped it. My pair is very well matched even without official matching.

[grider]

there is a recording from an outdoor show at Rothbury using these mics on bt.etree.org, that should give a very good representation of their sound, not sure which set though you might have to look around for it for a bit, do a search for Rothbury and you will find it

[grider]

only card and omni caps, unfortunately no hypers listed on the website (which leaves a little to be desired)

[ArchivalAudio]

I just posted some more in the YS post.

The Milabs sound a lot like the neumanns in the mids and highs -- very smooth enjoyable mids, silky highs with no distortion, but with high end emphasis.  On the lows, I find the milabs to be both fuller and much tauter than the neumanns.  I find the neumanns to be just a tad loose in the lows.  The milabs are the opposite -- very taut, perhaps verging on too taut depending on your tastes.


With the midi-classic.com site Matt H posted in the retail section, I'd guess you might be able to pick up a pair of Milab VM44-links for under $1500, which is a steal IMO.

Oh BTW, they are available in matched pairs, but the matching charge is about $300-400 so I skipped it. My pair is very well matched even without official matching.

ToddR
thanx so much!
that is what I needed
Tone Def also mentioned a comp he did I hope he does a sendspace comp posting

what I see on the midi classics site is

List: 1,029.00
Sale: $810.27

MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) in force. CALL!

here:   http://www.midi-classics.com/u/u29181.htm

 you mention:

The milabs are the opposite -- very taut, perhaps verging on too taut depending on your tastes.

sounds like what I need to hear


one might guess that a pair could be had for under $1600

from reading their info
it might seem like the caps are closely matched any way

the "system " seems cool too
mostly I'd want cards, and omnis
though some sub cards or figure *'s would be cool
I am not nor never have been a big fan of the hyper sound
that's just me
gonna give some of the VM-44link recordings a listen

thanx so much
I was thinking about picking up a pair of SKM 184's  new for about $1700
but really only because sweetwater now has a 1 year no payments no interest deal with their card....
maybe (even know they are not one of the 3 US dealers) Sweetwater could come up with a pair   

[TNJazz]

I was thinking about picking up a pair of SKM 184's  new for about $1700

Don't do that.  There are WAY better options in that price range than 184's.  lus the minute you have them their value on the used market plummets (to about $1000 or less for the pair).

[ArchivalAudio]

I was thinking about picking up a pair of SKM 184's  new for about $1700

Don't do that.  There are WAY better options in that price range than 184's.  lus the minute you have them their value on the used market plummets (to about $1000 or less for the pair).

what would you suggest
besides the Milab VM-44 links?

[stirinthesauce]

I was thinking about picking up a pair of SKM 184's  new for about $1700

Don't do that.  There are WAY better options in that price range than 184's.  lus the minute you have them their value on the used market plummets (to about $1000 or less for the pair).

what would you suggest
besides the Milab VM-44 links?

the beyer mc930's or the milabs.  Of course with the beyers, you save 1k over that 1700 you posted.

The milabs are fabolous mics, very detailed.  A more "refined" sound (if that makes sense) to my ears than the km184's.  They have been really growing on me in recent.  Just don't get enough time as of late to tape.  The milabs are "brighter" and the beyers are "darker."  I like both, but both have a completely different sonic signature.

[TNJazz]

I was thinking about picking up a pair of SKM 184's  new for about $1700

Don't do that.  There are WAY better options in that price range than 184's.  lus the minute you have them their value on the used market plummets (to about $1000 or less for the pair).

what would you suggest
besides the Milab VM-44 links?

It's not clear what you're looking for.  You just mentioned Milabs and KM184s both.  The Milabs are "active" (actually remote capsule, to be accurate) and the KM184's are full body.

Are you considering full body/non-active mics as well?  If so...



EDIT:  of course as Jon has mentioned above, the MC930 is a mic you really can't go wrong with and lets face it - it kicks the KM184's ass.

[stirinthesauce]

^^

I agree on the nevaton for full body.  I also agree the beyer smokes the 184's.

Actives, the milabs.

[ArchivalAudio]

ok
so I like the shortness of the 184's
IF I could afford them I'd go for the SKM 140's (used to be my dream mic until the MKH 8040's came out)
I like the option of the actives
the 184's sound very similar to the 140's
I really like the Neumann Sound

the 184's are only 107mm in length and the MC930's are 128mm
I occasionally run stealth FOB so size matters
so Actives are a big plus
Lo Pro is the way to go

Ive been listening to some of the VM-44 links posts on Archive
and am liking what I'm hearing

I also really like the Sennheiser MKH 8040'STs
but at a $2400 street price for the pair is out for now

My RODE NT5's are  118mm and their pushing it as far as length

I know the MC930's matched pair is under $1G
which is awesome!

I like cards
sometimes like omnis so the VM44 links sound like they could be a great option


thanx for the suggestions
I hope the more detailed info help with more ideas
peace
-- Ian

[TNJazz]

Gotcha.  So size does matter, but full body is OK as long as the mics are stealthable?

KM184 is probably one of the shortest full body mics out there, but no way would I pay $1700 for a pair of them.

[ArchivalAudio]

Gotcha.  So size does matter, but full body is OK as long as the mics are stealthable?

KM184 is probably one of the shortest full body mics out there, but no way would I pay $1700 for a pair of them.

well Yes!
I am more leaning toward these sweet
VM-44 links - I like the card/omni option

however
I see at Sweetwater the 184's
are
ItemID: KM184Pair   Retail Price: $2,298.00
SAVE $598.03 (26%) WHEN YOU BUY TODAY!
SALE PRICE:
$1,699.97


+ another $25 off
+ 1 year no payments /no interest
which gives me plenty of time to pay them off and not accrue interest



anyway
I am hearing that there a number of folks who think there are nicer smoother sounding mics that the 184's or 140's


So far the think I have heard on archive with the VM-44 links
sound very awesome!
I may just hold off and get those

another thought on the VM-44 links?
I've seen them lower... but I'd have to put them on a credit card that already carries a balance 

but
It seems like I should may be wait till the spring after I gat my tax return to fund new mics

[stevetoney]

KM184s are great sounding mics.  Trust your ears and decide based on what you like.  I know others disagree, but I like the Neumann's better than MC930's.  I think the Beyer's have a nice crunch for a mic in that price range, but they're just too stale or lifeless for my taste.  Believe me, I've tried to make myself like them because the price range is right up my alley for the market that I'm at right now.

Anyway, here are the comps I promised.  This show was the Nighthawks at Moondog's in Blawnox, PA...you'll see the downloaded file titles if you're interested in the date.  The first sample is a song from the first set with the milabs and the second song is the km140's for the second set.  Everything the same except the mics...same location, same recorder, etc.  Mics were DIN about 6 feet up (low ceiling).

Milab VM44link
http://www.sendspace.com/file/c2yxqb

Neumann KM140
http://www.sendspace.com/file/7rh8vc

Edit to add:  I'd NEVER pay $1700 for a new pair of 184s.  The most I'd go is $1200 or so on ebay for a pair...and they're ALWAYS listed there for that price or less...$1300 tops.  If you're gonna go that high, then yeah go for the Milabs new instead.

[Todd R]

another thought on the VM-44 links?
I've seen them lower... but I'd have to put them on a credit card that already carries a balance 

Great to hear you're thinking about the milabs!  I love to see these great mics get more use in our circles.

On the price -- could you drop me a line where you've seen them lower than midi-classics.com?  I'm still tossing around the idea of getting omni caps, and would like to know about other retailers to consider.

[bobsmith19]

hey, all shows recorded when i had a pair of milab vm44 links:

these were vm44 cards -> denecke ps-2 -> denecke ad-20 -> rockbox iriver h120

http://mcchrislive.com/media/aud/atlanta/bobsmith/01oct2007.html

http://mcchrislive.com/media/aud/birmingham/bobsmith/12nov2007.html

http://mcchrislive.com/media/aud/mtpleasant/bobsmith/15jul2007.html

the 01oct2007 show at the roxy in atlanta is one of my favorite tapes.  bob.

[grider]

to ArchivalAudio, if you think you are going to get any kind of consensus from members here, of any type at all, as to which mics are best for your needs, you are mistaken; every member here will have his own opinions about makers, applications, cost to benefit ratios, so much so that you will end up confused and frustrated by canvassing members here for their opinions; I'd say pick a transparent (DPA, Sennheiser, AKG) or colored sounding microphone (most everything else), active (DPA, Schoeps, Milab, Neumann, or MBHO, Sennheiser) or non-active format (everything else), and what's available in your price range, andthen narrow the list down, listen to them critically on archive.org, and they buy and start using your mics; if you do not like the sound, try other preamps, if you still do not like the sound, then replace the mics and start all over again

[stirinthesauce]

I'd say pick a transparent (DPA, Sennheiser, AKG) or colored sounding microphone (most everything else),

I'll take just a little exception to this.  For quite sometime, myself along with others here have been trying other mic manufacturers' (less heard of, foreign with only foreign distributors, hand made, boutique, etc.) products and comparing them to what tapers have always used (before the internet when the only mics heard of were neumann, senns, schoeps, akg) and trying to broaden the horizons of what we as a community can use.  There are many other mics that are quite transparent, others not so.  But the options are vast.  All of the mics listed above have a unique sonic characteristic and as a consequence are not truely "transparent".  I certainly can tell a difference between them in an a-b test.  They won't sound identical.  All mics are going to sound a bit different. 

Certainly you are correct about opinions though.  The archive is a great place to listen to different mics.  Other ways are just to try them out and see what your ears like. 

I am very biased however about some mic choices, for reasons of what my ears like, even though I may no longer own certain mics.  Others are very biased towards there own preference.  However, we (tapers, recordists, archivists, field recordist, etc) are no longer limited to just a few options of akg, dpa, neumann, sennheiser, and schoeps.  TONS of very competive if not better and less expensive options available for us to utilize.
 

[ArchivalAudio]

Hey
thanx for all this input
I do realize that we all have opinions
from  my experience in recording for the last 22+ years
I generally know I don't always like the AKG sound... not to say there arn't some recordings or mics  that dont' sound good
that  to me & my ears  I prefer others
same generally about Schoeps, vs Neumanns - if there is  a choice I'd go for the Neumanns
I'd say the same for Cards vs Hypers - I find  (to me) cards sound more natural
hypers
sound thin hollow and tinny - but that is just my ears

I borrowed CQbert's Sennheiser MKH8040's and they sound great!, perhaps a bit boomy, but I think that was just where I was in the venue- but very Phat!

I like the old B&K 4011's too


I know many folks would disagree with me
that's fine
I am not bashing them - sound is all a perception
we all have personal tastes

I value everyones opinion

glad to hear them

More specfic replies later on

for the Price Point - I am leaning toward the VM - 44 links

I do like  what I hear
I am curious to hear the comp with the 140's

more soon

-- Ian

[stirinthesauce]

- sound is all a perception
we all have personal tastes

"plustee"

[dmonkey]

Damn you people. After reading this thread and listening to the VM-44 samples I'm really liking what I'm hearing. I've wanted to get "actives" for a while now, and have been lusting after the 140s...until now. The VM-44 samples sound really nice to my ears, and the price is right. This is an addicting and expensive hobby, dammit.   

Anyone know how much just the caps are for these VM-44s? It'd be nice to have both card and omni caps.

[stirinthesauce]

here is one I did a couple weeks ago

http://www.archive.org/details/rre2008-11-01.flac

[ArchivalAudio]

hmmmm
as I listen to the comp
VM-44's
and
KM140's
I think I may tend to like the VM-44's a bit better
but it could be the different song
but
dunno yet
I'll give them a few more listens
thanx
-- Ian

[illconditioned]

Hey
thanx for all this input
I do realize that we all have opinions
from  my experience in recording for the last 22+ years
I generally know I don't always like the AKG sound... not to say there arn't some recordings or mics  that dont' sound good
that  to me & my ears  I prefer others
same generally about Schoeps, vs Neumanns - if there is  a choice I'd go for the Neumanns
I'd say the same for Cards vs Hypers - I find  (to me) cards sound more natural
hypers
sound thin hollow and tinny - but that is just my ears

I borrowed CQbert's Sennheiser MKH8040's and they sound great!, perhaps a bit boomy, but I think that was just where I was in the venue- but very Phat!

I like the old B&K 4011's too


I know many folks would disagree with me
that's fine
I am not bashing them - sound is all a perception
we all have personal tastes

I value everyones opinion

glad to hear them

More specfic replies later on

for the Price Point - I am leaning toward the VM - 44 links

I do like  what I hear
I am curious to hear the comp with the 140's

more soon

-- Ian

Which AKG did you try?  The ck61,62,63 caps sound pretty good.

As for the B&K 4011, those are probably the best mics you can get IMO.  They are metal diaphragm instrument quality.  They're also more than $5000 a pair!

 Richard

[Jamos]

here is one I did a couple weeks ago

http://www.archive.org/details/rre2008-11-01.flac

/\/\/\/\/\

This recording sounds really nice.

So when you buy a VM-44 Link, do you get a mic body as well?
Or does the link (cable) work in place of the mic body?

I can't find that info anywhere on the milab site.

thanks.

[stirinthesauce]

It is a body, with ~9' of cable, a collette of sorts with a removable capsule.  The cable does not come undone from the body (well it does, but requires some decent soldering skills).  The caps do unscrew from the collette, hence to interchange with the omni capsules.  Then it comes with it's own nifty mounts.  Won't work with a kwon bar though.

edit to add:
another one of mine from this summer
http://www.archive.org/details/ymsb2008-06-15..flac

everything else I have is 4 channel with nevatons.  Of course I have the archived 2 channel, but......


Tomorrow night I will be running these side by side with schoeps and dpa's so there should be some good sources to comp with on the archive.  I will be running a different pre with these as well (cooper csp1a)

[ArchivalAudio]

edit to add:
another one of mine from this summer
http://www.archive.org/details/ymsb2008-06-15..flac

everything else I have is 4 channel with nevatons.  Of course I have the archived 2 channel, but......


Tomorrow night I will be running these side by side with schoeps and dpa's so there should be some good sources to comp with on the archive.  I will be running a different pre with these as well (cooper csp1a)

^^^^^^ wow I can not wait for a comp
I like the YMSB from Boa
what
were they on a stand?
what array orpattern
FOB?
can you give more info




thanx
&
Nice
-- Ian

[stirinthesauce]

uhhh, fob = front of (sound)board.  This was maybe 50-65' from the stage.  The pattern that day I believe was NOS.  And yes, it was on a stand, maybe 7' high

[ArchivalAudio]

uhhh, fob = front of (sound)board.  This was maybe 50-65' from the stage.  The pattern that day I believe was NOS.  And yes, it was on a stand, maybe 7' high

ohhh sweeet
very nice sounding
thanx

[dmonkey]

Anyone know how much just the caps are for these VM-44s? It'd be nice to have both card and omni caps.

Duh...nevermind, found it on the midi-classics website.    Not too shabby of a price.

[ArchivalAudio]

I am really liking ToddR's
STS9
recording with these mics!
very nice
I think I am swaying even more toward these nice remote caps!

[stirinthesauce]

set 1 is milabs

http://www.archive.org/details/larrykeel2008-05-31..flac

stage lip at The Station Inn in Nashville

[ArchivalAudio]

set 1 is milabs

http://www.archive.org/details/larrykeel2008-05-31..flac

stage lip at The Station Inn in Nashville

^^^^^
Awesome!
very nice
I am listening to set 1 right now
very rich and full sounding especially for a stage lip recording
were they behind or in front to the monitors? or are the mains wide dispersion, or pointed in ward?
what pattern?
the vocals are very clear, which is not alway true of stage lip recordings
Thanx

really excellent recording
(never heard any Larry Keel, I like the experience!)

[ArchivalAudio]

uhhh, fob = front of (sound)board.  This was maybe 50-65' from the stage.  The pattern that day I believe was NOS.  And yes, it was on a stand, maybe 7' high

oh I know what FOB is or stands for
but I did not think it sated that it was FOB
it does sound very clean!

[stirinthesauce]

there may be some monitor bleed but the mics were behind the monitors.  Basically an acoustic recording (except the upright had an amp on stage).  Pattern I believe is DIN but you can download the text for pertinent info from that archive link.

Here are some pics from that show.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,104780.0.html

[ArchivalAudio]

there may be some monitor bleed but the mics were behind the monitors.  Basically an acoustic recording (except the upright had an amp on stage).  Pattern I believe is DIN but you can download the text for pertinent info from that archive link.

Here are some pics from that show.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,104780.0.html

^^^^^^^
Great Pics very clean and detailed!
&
Nice rig pic!

[F.O.Bean]

Dirk, I also really like that you ALWAYS SUGGEST other brands of mics than teh USUAL SUSPECTS Because lets face it, there are MANY MORE MICS OUT THERE THAN JUST Schoeps/Neumann/DPA/MBHO/AKG/Beyer/Nak/etc

[Todd R]

I'll try to dig around to see if I downloaded any of Phil R's stuff to compare to mine.  He runs km140>V3 and I run Milab VM44-link>V3, so if I kept any of his recordings, it should make for a good comp.

[ArchivalAudio]

I'll try to dig around to see if I downloaded any of Phil R's stuff to compare to mine.  He runs km140>V3 and I run Milab VM44-link>V3, so if I kept any of his recordings, it should make for a good comp.

Awesome-- I'll keep my fingers crossed

[ArchivalAudio]

Hey
Tood or Jon - or other Milab owners
I see on the Milab site they state:

      


We started producing microphones in Sweden almost 70 years ago. Still all our microphones are made by hand in our plant in Helsingborg, Sweden.

A typical Milab microphone has a heavy-duty brass body with a state of the art black finish. All microphones pass an extensive quality checking procedure.



With each microphone, an individual plot with frequency response and sensitivity is enclosed. Matched pairs are available upon request.

All models are developed by us in our laboratories and tested in our acoustic chamber. We have our own service staff, doing service and tuning on all microphones.

Did you get  an individual plot with frequency response and sensitivity?

were you able to get consecutive serial numbers (or close)
do the plots match close?
thanx
-- Ian

[stirinthesauce]

yes
not sure on serial numbers, will have to check
yes

[Todd R]

yes
not sure on serial numbers, will have to check
yes

Ditto.  Got the plots, they match very well though not matched, not sure about the serial #s.

[Todd R]

I'll try to dig around to see if I downloaded any of Phil R's stuff to compare to mine.  He runs km140>V3 and I run Milab VM44-link>V3, so if I kept any of his recordings, it should make for a good comp.

Awesome-- I'll keep my fingers crossed

OK, I dug up some files I had from Phil and put together a comp file.  My internet at home has been screwed up, so I did the comp as mp3's (highest VBR rate in foobar/LAME) so I wouldn't use up too much bandwidth at work. 

I've tried for the first time to make this as a .zip (filzip) file and have uploaded it to megaupload.  Hopefully this will work.

Here's the info on the songs:
1)  Emmitt Nershi Band 2007.11.03, Bluebird, Denver.  Midnight Blues.
2)  Emmitt Nershi Band 2007.11.03, Bluebird, Denver.  If You're Ever in Oklahoma.
3)  moe.  2007.01.26, Gothic, Denver.  Not Coming Down.
4)  Yonder Mountain String Band 2006.12.29, Fillmore, Denver.  Death Trip.

All sources are Neumann km140 > Lunatec V3 > recorder and Milab VM44-link > Lunatec V3 > recorder.  The ENB and YMSB shows had both mic pairs on the same stand, the moe. song didn't (so it might not be the best comp material).

Megaupload allows free memberships, and I'm pretty sure you can download as a guest without getting a membership.  The megaupload link for the comp is:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=UVPW40XT

[Todd R]

Well, that didn't take long until I figured out I screwed up.   (Actually, Sunbear Markham did, but anyway.)

Rushed around too much to get this done and didn't quality check.  It looks like what is labeled on the Archive for the km140 ENB source as Midnight Blues is actually Whiskey River.  I didn't catch that until now, so the file archive I put together has Whiskey River, not Midnight Blues.

If you want to compare this song, you can get the FLAC or VBR mp3 of Midnight Blues here:

http://www.archive.org/details/emmittnershi2007-11-03..flac

You'll find Midnight Blues listed as Down in the Hollow.

[Todd R]

Wow, comps are fun.   I hadn't listened myself to the km140 sources, so I was just doing it now.  Once I got the right Midnight Blues from the Archive, I did a little comparison listening.  It seems like the channels are reversed on the Milab source vs the Neumann source.  Who knows which source is screwed up, but if I had to guess, I'd wager the km140 source has L and R reversed.  This prediction based on the fact that when I ran a MT, it often would reverse L and R, so my guess is that is what happened here.

Perhaps with all this to just skip this comparison, but it might be worth it to use a sound editor and reverse L and R channels for the two ENB km140 songs.

[ArchivalAudio]

^^^^^^^ 
ToddR
thanx
for the work that you did
I d'ld the comp and need to listen to the one on archive,
but I'll be very interested in the comp
(even if L& R are different)
thanx
-- Ian

[ArchivalAudio]

hey Todd R
well
I finally listen to the comps...

Like you mention in the text file about the moe comp

The Gothic usually has good sound, this night -- it sucked.  All tapers were fob on a riser behind the main floor.  The Milabs were on the far left of the taperssection, I don't know about the Neumanns, but I don't remember them being nearby.  Probably not the best comp material.  Sorry, I don't have the original text files handy, and I've forgotten the recorders used.

but in the YMSB

Yonder Mountain String Band 2006.12.29, Fillmore, Denver.  Death Trip.
Both mic pairs were on the same stand, fob inside the soundboard cage.  Ditto, don't have the original text files handy, and have forgotten the recorders used.

I am familiar with Death Trip from Danny Barnes
but listening to both moe and YMSB  = this is a great comp as the mics were on the same stand
However the patterns or arrays are not noted and could account fo rthe difference in sound
for example ORTF vs Xy or DIN or NOS

what my ears hear
is:
that I find the VM-44's generally fuller overall
more defined mids = resulting in clearer vocals
crisper highs  = meaning more sizzle on the cymbals

both are quite the same or alike, but
I do find that the VM 44's are overeall clearer throughout the full spectrum of lows-mids - highs
as compared to the KM-140's
the DPA comp was a mix of  = [DPA 4027(ORTF/DFC/OTS)->V2->Mytek 192->HD-P2(24/96)] + [DPA 4022(XY/DFC/OTS)->V3->MT2496(24/96)]
so I am not sure I can compare the single caps to 2 mixed sources
thought the VM-44's sound closer and less distant


very nice comp!
I really like the VM-44's
now if they only had Figure8 caps to run  blumlein
but spaced omnis would be very sweet!



thanx for putting that together!
peace
-- Ian

[Todd R]

Thanks for your feedback Ian.  You might want to also listen to the songs from the Emmitt Nershi Band show.  If you go to the Archive and download the flacs, you can use foobar/LAME encoding to encode to MP3 on the highest VBR mp3 setting and then the tracks should be the same from an mp3 encoding standpoint.  Of course, somehow you'll have to swap the channels on the km140 source.  The km140s and milabs on ENB were both on the same stand and both used the DIN pattern.

I can try to find out from Phil R what pattern he ran for YMSB at the Fillmore that night, but he generally uses DIN so I'd guess that is probably it.  I used DIN on the Milab source.

[philR]

I can try to find out from Phil R what pattern he ran for YMSB at the Fillmore that night, but he generally uses DIN so I'd guess that is probably it.  I used DIN on the Milab source.

yeah for yonder that night i did run DIN.  Not sure about the others.  and in regards tot he channel swap on that one recording, i have a feeling that would be sunbear error.

[notsofast]

Thanks for this thread and comparision. I am looking to upgrade my Peluso's and was looking into the KM-140's, then rowjimmytour turned me on to this thread and open my ears to new options and possible $ savings.

All the best and thanks for putting this together,

Tim

[ArchivalAudio]

I can try to find out from Phil R what pattern he ran for YMSB at the Fillmore that night, but he generally uses DIN so I'd guess that is probably it.  I used DIN on the Milab source.

yeah for yonder that night i did run DIN.  Not sure about the others.  and in regards tot he channel swap on that one recording, i have a feeling that would be sunbear error.

cool! thanx to both of you...
so they were the same pattern!
ToddR
thanx for preping the comp
I have also listened to the ENB
I'll listen more later on again

I sent an email to midi-classics  but have yet to hear any response on actual pricing
I'll have to make some calls when I have time during the day (not at work)

I am glad to have others be able to get all this info on some cool mics.

peace
-- Ian

[ArchivalAudio]

hey
I spoke with midi classics
and
they said for a pair (not mached) just 2 the pricing
for  2 VM-44 Links would be $750 each or $1500 for the pair
a 1 week turn around time to get them from Milab in Sweeden

when I inquired about pringin I was aksed for how many
so it got me thinking about a possible group buy?

I don't know if it could happen or if we could  get some special privcing for a mass group buy
I may inquire if there is any interest

happy T-Day

back to T
- Ian

[ArchivalAudio]

hey so they are now
on the Full Compass site
listed as:

List Price: $810.27
Our Price: $681.14
You save 16%!
Usually ships in 2-3 weeks
Need it sooner? Call us!
This item is eligible for FREE Shipping!

with their Pro Pass they offer
no interest / no payments for 6months

damn!
I'm thinkin' I should go for them!

[Jamos]

Damn!
Full Compass is awesome sometimes.

[ArchivalAudio]

Damn!
Full Compass is awesome sometimes.

Totally!
I got my Fostwex D-5 Dat from them in like 1997, and my AT 853's in like 98(?) from them
they were always great to deal with!

I applied for their Pro Pass - got it!
and now need to wait for it in the mail before I place my web order!

kinda crazy
but
I'm sure I'll be happy!


-- Ian

[Jamos]

So you are gonna go for it, eh?
They seem like great mics.

[illconditioned]

hey so they are now
on the Full Compass site
listed as:

List Price: $810.27
Our Price: $681.14
You save 16%!
Usually ships in 2-3 weeks
Need it sooner? Call us!
This item is eligible for FREE Shipping!

with their Pro Pass they offer
no interest / no payments for 6months

damn!
I'm thinkin' I should go for them!

Wow. That seems like a great price!

  Richard

[dmonkey]

Great price indeed! Wow.

[ArchivalAudio]

So you are gonna go for it, eh?
They seem like great mics.

yep
but I gotta wait for the snail mailing of the card 7 - 10- days

and then wait another 2 - 3 weeks
but
then I have 6 months to pay them off- perhaps float some of my tax return dollars to them... It's a bit crazy since my funds are not great right now 
though
from the comps I heard I really like the way the are very full sounding
and that in the future I can get the omni caps

and for 2 new
lifetime warrantied mics at $1362.28 with free shipping
it's hard to pass up
 

[stevetoney]

As I've commented previously in this thread, I think these are great sounding mics and the prices being stated makes these an even more attractive alternative than the $1700 or so that I was looking at a year or so ago.

What I don't understand is why Milabs wouldn't be working on getting a full compliment of capsules together to support this microphone series.  I know I'd be looking more seriously at them if they did.

This has come up in the past here and the result of people's inquiries was that we shouldn't expect to see anything other than the cards and omnis.  If they did include say a hyper and figure 8, I think there would be a far larger demand, at least from the people that frequent ts.com.

It could be that low demand keeps them from committing fully, but it seems to me that if you're gonna design the root product to have interchangeability, you'd follow it up with the goods to support that line.  Also, if you're in the business of making microphones, doesn't it follow that you'd support a base unit like the VM-44Link pseudo actives with a full compliment of capsules?

They might claim that the omni capsules are available for that purpose...to provide options to the root product, but then I'd counter with the question...then why limit the available option to only an omni capsule? 

Some people may respond, well it's because ours is a niche market and a manufacturer like Milabs has a far broader customer base to listen to than just ours.  Even so, I see the answer is the same...then why limit the options to only two mic capsules and what makes the omni a better cardioid alternative than any of the other patterns?

I'm not really complaining or wanting to cast a cloud over this thread.  It's just that the lower price of the VM-44 Link got me, once again, to wishing out loud that Milabs would support their product with a complete capsule compliment...and as it stands now it just seems to me like they've got a half-hearted commitment to this product line.  It was the reason that I personally committed to the Neumann product-line back when I owned both and had a decision to make.

[TNJazz]

Too much cost associated with R&D and nowhere near enough ROI on the back end for a super-niche market like tapers I would imagine.

If you need other patterns, why not just buy other mics for those?  That's what most people do (in the non-taping world, at least).

I'd say cardioid and omni are the two most popular and useable patterns for most people worldwide, so unless you have a highly effective market presence with your brand name (like Schoeps or Sennheiser/Neumann) it makes sense to focus on what's going to bring in the money and maybe if there's enough demand later on you look at other options.

Keep in mind that Milab (no "s") is a very small shop, and has been relatively unknown outside of Europe until recently although they have been around for quite a while.

[stevetoney]

Too much cost associated with R&D and nowhere near enough ROI on the back end for a super-niche market like tapers I would imagine.

If you need other patterns, why not just buy other mics for those?  That's what most people do (in the non-taping world, at least).

I'd say cardioid and omni are the two most popular and useable patterns for most people worldwide, so unless you have a highly effective market presence with your brand name (like Schoeps or Sennheiser/Neumann) it makes sense to focus on what's going to bring in the money and maybe if there's enough demand later on you look at other options.

Keep in mind that Milab (no "s") is a very small shop, and has been relatively unknown outside of Europe until recently although they have been around for quite a while.

True that!  No debate needed because I don't disagree with any of your points TNJazz.

Honestly, I was a little bit stubborn on this issue because of MBHO.  I see Milab as pretty analogous to MBHO.  Both are 'mom and pop' shops.

However, MBHO didn't stop at two capsules. 

Again, not so much complaining as wishing, and of course, providing input/feedback if Milab (no 's') happens to being kibitzing.   

[Todd R]

Great price indeed! Wow.

QFT.  These are fantastic mics, esp at that price.

As to Steve's comments about wanting other caps, I agree it'd be very nice.  But I really wouldn't go so far as to say they are not supporting and committed to their product. Particularly with a lifetime warranty -- that is product support!  As TNJazz mentions, cards and omnis are the main mic type most users want, and their isn't enough demand to warrant the R&D needed for hypers, etc.

[stevetoney]

Great price indeed! Wow.

QFT.  These are fantastic mics, esp at that price.

As to Steve's comments about wanting other caps, I agree it'd be very nice.  But I really wouldn't go so far as to say they are not supporting and committed to their product. Particularly with a lifetime warranty -- that is product support!  As TNJazz mentions, cards and omnis are the main mic type most users want, and their isn't enough demand to warrant the R&D needed for hypers, etc.

True again.  I guess I'm coming off as bashing these mics and the company.  I'm not meaning to. 

For $1400 or less a pair NEW, I'd have no problem owning these mics again!

[datbrad]

Great price indeed! Wow.

QFT.  These are fantastic mics, esp at that price.

As to Steve's comments about wanting other caps, I agree it'd be very nice.  But I really wouldn't go so far as to say they are not supporting and committed to their product. Particularly with a lifetime warranty -- that is product support!  As TNJazz mentions, cards and omnis are the main mic type most users want, and their isn't enough demand to warrant the R&D needed for hypers, etc.

True again.  I guess I'm coming off as bashing these mics and the company.  I'm not meaning to. 

For $1400 or less a pair NEW, I'd have no problem owning these mics again!

Steve, I have a buddy that runs these and they sound awesome, and while the company is small, he said they are actually much like B&K in that they are purists about omni and 1st order cards being the only "true" mic patterns to make (this was before they made the 4017s). Milabs have actually been around for years, particularly the hand held vocal mics. Those iconic ball with the vents in the back that Jerry and the boys sang into after the Dead switched from MD421s for vocals from the mid '80s to the end were Milabs.

I also heard a story where the main guy at B&K was once asked about hypers, and his response was something like "why would anyone want to record in a situation where such a thing would be needed?" or something smug like that. I love the sound of these Milab SD mics, and if I was seeking an active solution, these would be at the top of my list.

[dactylus]

So you are gonna go for it, eh?
They seem like great mics.

yep
but I gotta wait for the snail mailing of the card 7 - 10- days

and then wait another 2 - 3 weeks
but
then I have 6 months to pay them off- perhaps float some of my tax return dollars to them... It's a bit crazy since my funds are not great right now 
though
from the comps I heard I really like the way the are very full sounding
and that in the future I can get the omni caps

and for 2 new
lifetime warrantied mics at $1362.28 with free shipping
it's hard to pass up
 

Are there any "knowledgeable" microphone sales folks at Full Compass? - Just like everywhere else some of those "sales people" there don't know their product(s) or they really don't care or both... 

Anybody here have repeat favorable dealings with any specific sales folk there?  Names please.   

[Jamos]

Our rep is named Luis Acosta @ ext. 1178

He's always been really helpful, easy to deal with, and fairly knowledgeable.

[ArchivalAudio]

hey

I spoke to my old Rep today At Full Compass
Ron Vogel X-1139
my last transactions there were in 2002 (my Rode NT 5's)
but he will be there 14years in January
a nice  helpful guy and knowledgeable
he said there is a 14 day (rough, could be less) ship time from Milab  (no drop ship)
and that the price the rep can quote for a  2 would be $1264.04 (or $632.02 each) but it would not include free shipping 2 with shipping  dealing with a rep is $1284.04

Nyce 

that's about a  ~ $78 savings

and  a great deal for a pair with a lifetime warranty (to the originall purchaser)
as soon as my card arrives ... I'm all over them!
!
 
Peace
-- Ian

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

Sweet Ian.  It will be nice having these badboys for Pickathon.   

[ArchivalAudio]

Sweet Ian.  It will be nice having these badboys for Pickathon.   

you know it Mark!
I figured you might be interested in having them at the pickathon!  - I know I will be stoked about it!
 

[stevetoney]

Hey Ian.  Do you know what exactly does a lifetime warranty mean?  Whose lifetime, LOL?

Serioiusly though, do you or anyone else reading this know what the typical terms of a lifetime warranty are?  Does it convey with the mics and is it so broad that it means that whoever owns the mics whenever something happens, they'll warrant them (within reason...obviously physical abuse is not warranted)...or maybe it's limited only to the person that purchased the mics.

[TNJazz]

Hey Ian.  Do you know what exactly does a lifetime warranty mean?  Whose lifetime, LOL?

Serioiusly though, do you or anyone else reading this know what the typical terms of a lifetime warranty are?  Does it convey with the mics and is it so broad that it means that whoever owns the mics whenever something happens, they'll warrant them (within reason...obviously physical abuse is not warranted)...or maybe it's limited only to the person that purchased the mics.

http://www.milabmic.com/content.asp?page=warranty

It applies only to the original purchaser of the mics.  This restriction is standard for pretty much all major microphone manufacturers though.

[stevetoney]

Thanks TNJazz!

[stirinthesauce]

a sample from a different pairing (so far, I have run these with a mme and with a stock r-44).  Also now have a copper pre so that will be next (Jenny trannies!)

busman t-mod r4
milabas nos, fob, dfc

[urlhttp://www.archive.org/details/um2008-11-15][/url]

[ArchivalAudio]

Just orderd my pair today!
it's gonna take some time 'cause of the holidays
but
I can't wait!
I have an Idea for a low pro adjustable ORTF DIN-a bar
gotta get the mounts first

[ArchivalAudio]

Jon
thanx for posting the link to the UM
it sounds very nice!

-- Ian

[stevetoney]

Agreed...crisp and crunchy...detail out the wazoo!

[stirinthesauce]

I've got other samples, just haven't transferred/tracked 

[TNJazz]

I've got other samples, just haven't transferred/tracked 

Considering you tape so much, I'm not surprised.   

 

[stirinthesauce]

I've got other samples, just haven't transferred/tracked 

Considering you tape so much, I'm not surprised.   

 

I still tape more than you 

[illconditioned]

OK 'jazz and/or 'sauce.
How do the MiLabs sound, compared to Beyerdynamic MC930?
Any opinions?

  Richard

[ArchivalAudio]

FYI
in the Team Boards
is now!

Team Milab

here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,114343.0.html

can't wait till mine arrive!
 

[stirinthesauce]

OK 'jazz and/or 'sauce.
How do the MiLabs sound, compared to Beyerdynamic MC930?
Any opinions?

  Richard

two entirely different beasts.  Complete difference sonically.  I love the beyers.  Just so damn musical and pleasing to my ears.  Much darker than the milabs.  The milabs are brighter, more detailed mics.  Took me awhile for my ears to become adjusted to the milabs but they are growing on me.  I am going to play a bit longer with them.  If I dump them, it will be to go to the beyer ck930's without a doubt.  Just haven't decided yet.

[TNJazz]

Agreed.  It's like comparing an apple to a donut.

Both can be pretty tasty at the right time, but the similarities otherwise are few and far between.

[ArchivalAudio]

Agreed.  It's like comparing an apple to a donut.

Both can be pretty tasty at the right time, but the similarities otherwise are few and far between.

MMMMmmmmm
I love apple doughnuts!   
or apple Fritters- the best of both worlds apples and doughnuts!   

[stirinthesauce]

or apple Fritters- the best of both worlds apples and doughnuts!   

why my omnis are nevatons and my cards are milabs.  4 channel goodness of the extremes.  The smmmmmooooothness of the nevs with the detail and clarity of the milabs. 

[ArchivalAudio]

mine finally arrived
and I am awaiting a chance to actually run them at a show!

this coming Friday 1/30/09  I'll get the chance
and a bunch more after that!

-- Ian

[dactylus]

mine finally arrived
and I am awaiting a chance to actually run them at a show!

this coming Friday 1/30/09  I'll get the chance
and a bunch more after that!

-- Ian

Cool - let us know how it goes!  Did you ever complete your "stereo bars"  for the VM-44's?

[ArchivalAudio]

I just finished  a stereo bar  last night
I'm calling it v.1  as it could be better, not as slick as I had hoped for- but it totally works.
It is made out of PVC pipe- one from Delrin rod nicely machined (in a shop I don't have) would be nicer.

I need to look at the pics and edit  them in photoshop - then get them up on photobucket
so I can share them here which may nopt totally happen until after the weekend

basically it is a bar that can easily do ORTF (which is what I most always use) and DINa (which could come in handy - if I am a bit farther back)  - you could probably use it for a crosed (sopaced) XY - I am just not fond of the XY image- so I probably won't do that.

-- Ian

[grider]

I need to look at the pics and edit  them in photoshop - then get them up on photobucket
so I can share them here which may nopt totally happen until after the weekend

you do not need to post your pics to photobucket and link them here at this site to post up photos; there is an attachment option here where you can attach your pics directly to a post, up to something like 6 pics per post, there is a file size per pic limit however

[ArchivalAudio]

I need to look at the pics and edit  them in photoshop - then get them up on photobucket
so I can share them here which may nopt totally happen until after the weekend

you do not need to post your pics to photobucket and link them here at this site to post up photos; there is an attachment option here where you can attach your pics directly to a post, up to something like 6 pics per post, there is a file size per pic limit however

oh huh... that would be easier - or the same
I always smallify and optimize for the web my JPG's - so I could attachem them here.... that cool
thanx
-- Ian

[stevetoney]

Congratulations on the new babies Ian! 

FWIW, the owner before me that had the Links (that I owned for a short time) got a little over zealous when he pushed the connector together with the grommet on the body.  One of the pins somehow became misaligned and he boogered up the plastic part of the female side of that connector just a little bit (can't remember if that was on the connector or the mic body). 

I can't really figure out how he did it, but...

Just a lesson learned I'm passing along and maybe something to be a bit careful of...don't put alot of force on the connector unless you know the all of the pins are well aligned.  Probably not a whole lot of reason to disconnect the cables anyway.

I think when I got them I asked others about this and it seemed to be a very isolated incident.

[ArchivalAudio]

tonedeaf
thanx for passing on the info
I don't have a reason to disconnect the cables- I don't think?
in fact I wasn't really award they could disconnect- since the caps would stay attaced to the cables  I see no real reason for it

Just went out and got a Pelican  1040 cse for them they seem to fit cables n all - except the windscreens

-- Ian

[stevetoney]

tonedeaf
thanx for passing on the info
I don't have a reason to disconnect the cables- I don't think?
in fact I wasn't really award they could disconnect- since the caps would stay attaced to the cables  I see no real reason for it

Just went out and got a Pelican  1040 cse for them they seem to fit cables n all - except the windscreens

-- Ian

You're right...there really is no reason to disconnect the cables.  The person I bought them from when I had them I think stored them broken down, but I think that's asking for trouble.  Being able to disconnect the cable _IS_ a nice feature of the VM-44 Links though, so that the cable can be conveniently replaced if it ever becomes damaged.

[TNJazz]

Are you sure the cables disconnect?  I don't think they're supposed to?

[stirinthesauce]

Are you sure the cables disconnect?  I don't think they're supposed to?

mine don't disconnect

We know, you did the maintenance work 

[Todd R]

Are you sure the cables disconnect?  I don't think they're supposed to?

mine don't disconnect

Strange, mine disconnect.

[stevetoney]

Click on the link below...that's what the amplifier body looks like with the cable detached.  You can see from this photo that there is a connector at the top of the body.  That's the connector I referred to in my earlier message that got a little bit messed up when the previous owner of the mics 'forced' the cable pins a little too much.

http://www2.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=278107648/PictureID=6804760052/a=86445596_86445596/otsc=SHR/otsi=SPIClink

[stirinthesauce]

well, maybe mine do.  I will have to re investigate. 

[stirinthesauce]

ahhh, what do you know, they do 

Guess I never pulled hard enough.  They were on nice and snug.

[TNJazz]

ahhh, what do you know, they do 

Guess I never pulled hard enough.  They were on nice and snug.

really?  wow.  so can you connect the capsule directly to the body and bypass the active cable then?  that's what kept me from picking up a pair of these but if that's the case I may need to re-evaluate...

[stirinthesauce]

no, always remote.  Just you can disconnect the body, there is a 5pin connector

[stevetoney]

In my mind it's a design improvement over the DPAs.  The DPAs cables are hard-wired and although you can most certainly replace the cables on the DPAs, I'd think it would best be done by an authorized DPA service center.  With these Milab Links, all you do is buy a new replacement cable and plug it in.

[ArchivalAudio]

GreyBoy Allstars
Crystal Ballroom
Portland OR
2009.02.15
Sunday
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**** seamless 24bit/48k  file set  NOT intended  to burn direct to CD ****
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FOB Master Aud:
Master info:
Milab VM-44-links DINa (17cm 90°) ~10.5' up ~ 25' from stage (at the drink rail) > ArchivalAudio ArchivalSilver XLR's> (stock)
FR2-LE 24bit 48khz BWF > Transcend  133x CF card

up on losslesslegs

http://www.shnflac.net/details.php?id=049c7640932d03199dcaadcc0e2894af5819ea08#comments

if you check it out
I think you like it!
thanx
-- Ian

[ArchivalAudio]

Kreutzmann Burbridge Muraski
Crystal Ballroom
Portland OR
2009.02.15
Sunday
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
**** seamless 24bit/48k  file set  NOT intended  to burn direct to CD ****
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FOB Master Aud:
Master info:
Milab VM-44-links DINa (17cm 90°) ~10.5' up ~ 25' from stage (at the drink rail) > ArchivalAudio ArchivalSilver XLR's> (stock)
FR2-LE 24bit 48khz BWF > Transcend  133x CF card
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Kreutzmann - drums
Oteil Burbridge - bass, vocals
Scott Murawski - guitar, vocals


On LosslessLegs

is up here
http://shnflac.net/details.php?id=51b399f8314cd47d15e43a1882bb1d79efa8aa95#comments

you need to be a member of LossLessLegs

enjoy
-- Ian

[dactylus]

Sorry for the "cross posting" but I want to have max exposure to Milab VM-44 link fanciers:

Gentlemen - here's our chance for machined, delrin, VM-44 Link stereo bars.  PLEASE let BJ know if you are interested!!


Neumann Active Owners...stereo bar(set)

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,118785.0.html



BJ the originator of the Neumann thread says:

Just a quick note.  This has been setup for multiple runs, and can be done very quickly by the shop.  If there is interest in other types of active setups, I can have these done also.  If i get another set of actives measured, and setup for production, they too will be easy to crank out.   I have been assured by the shop that I can do runs of one set at a time, or multiple.  I hope this holds true going forward.

caveat..i really don't want to do a Schoeps run, as Louie has covered the extensivly and is selling a great setup here

[Jammin72]

In my mind it's a design improvement over the DPAs.  The DPAs cables are hard-wired and although you can most certainly replace the cables on the DPAs, I'd think it would best be done by an authorized DPA service center.  With these Milab Links, all you do is buy a new replacement cable and plug it in.

DPA has 3 types.  Hardwired back, hardwired side, and Lemo.  It your choice.