Topic: Which high-end cardioids?

[StuStu]

Since you're not sure of which microphone maker you want, I highly recommend listening to a lot of recordings from various sources; even if they aren't from the same show. Eventually you'll understand the general feel of what each mic has or lacks. It's what I did when I decided to move away from AKG. Schoeps were not my original plan. After many hours of comparative listening, I chose Schoeps. I'm only saying they were the best choice for me personally. Since you're planning on spending a lot of money on an upgrade, take your time and get what best suits your ears. We all have our own preferences. I hope it works out well for you.

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I'm only saying they were the best choice for me personally. Since you're planning on spending a lot of money on an upgrade, take your time and get what best suits your ears. We all have our own preferences. I hope it works out well for you.

QFT

I stalked my most recent purchase for months before finally dropping coinage for it.

So, yes, a couple of MMP-C amps and MMC4011 caps would fit the bill very well, leaving the door open for MMC4006 caps later on. Then there's the MMC2011, which is a lot cheaper. I can see that it's a twin diaphragm mic, but again, that doesn't explain the price difference to a layman like myself.

Do the MMP-C amps come with cables or do those need to be purchased separately?

The cables are separate sadly. (circa $200 for a pair)

The diaphragm and housing differences create a slightly different polar pattern and response. What I've found with the 2011/4011 differences are that the 4011s are flatter (the 2011s are brighter). The 2011s are a slightly tighter off axis pattern, and the 4011s have a smoother/consistant off axis pattern across the frequency spectrum. Second, the 2011 caps are an extra inch or so in length. Last, but certainly not least, the 2011 is about half price.

There is a recording that was made with 4006 and 2006 caps that would give you an idea of how the product lines stack up to each other. Thats the only recording comp between the two lines that I know of currently.

[acidjack]

Ian, for what you're doing, I'm not sure if the new DPAs would be "better" or not, but they are both (a) Larger and (B) More expensive.  They'll be $3600 (or the Euro conversion) new for the set with the smaller-sized cardiod caps; the larger, cheaper caps won't work for stealth.  And even the "compact" bodies are larger than the 402x series, though they are tiny.

If all things were held truly equal, which they never are, it sounds like Schoeps CCM4s or CCM41s (probably better) and a DR-100mkII or PMD661 would fit your requirements - stealthy, sounds amazing, easy to set up, no custom U.S. gear required.  The CCM41s (the compact hypercardiods) will sound beautiful wherever you are, are small, are easy to setup, etc. But they aren't cheap.  At all.

Beyond that, I'd still look back to used 4021s, so long as they were in excellent condition.  Or if you are less allergic to having *some* custom U.S. gear, Schoeps MK41>KCY>tinybox v2>M10.  I finally tried out my tinybox v2 last night at an open taping show; the pull is outstanding.  It's a good little preamp.

[ianmacd]

Ian, for what you're doing, I'm not sure if the new DPAs would be "better" or not, but they are both (a) Larger and (B) More expensive.  They'll be $3600 (or the Euro conversion) new for the set with the smaller-sized cardiod caps; the larger, cheaper caps won't work for stealth.  And even the "compact" bodies are larger than the 402x series, though they are tiny.

I hadn't noticed the big difference in length between the MMC 40xx and the MMC 20xx. The latter are more than twice the length of the former, so yeah, that makes them significantly less appealing. The MMC 4011s are about €1150 each here.

If all things were held truly equal, which they never are, it sounds like Schoeps CCM4s or CCM41s (probably better) and a DR-100mkII or PMD661 would fit your requirements - stealthy, sounds amazing, easy to set up, no custom U.S. gear required.  The CCM41s (the compact hypercardiods) will sound beautiful wherever you are, are small, are easy to setup, etc. But they aren't cheap.  At all.

Your reasoning has a lot of appeal: universally acclaimed mics, very small, no fuss and no custom gear needed.

I really do want to avoid the extra point of failure that extra pre-amps/adapters/battery boxes, etc. would introduce. U.S. manufactured boutique gear would also bring expensive postage in both directions if mods or repairs were required, plus the chance of getting hit multiple times with customs duties when those border guys fail to realise I already own the thing that has been sent to me. All in all, a hassle best avoided if possible.

There's very little that can go wrong with the set-up you describe, apart from severe damage to one's wallet and the resulting deterioration of one's matrimonial relationship. The CCM 41V is €2100 here. Ouch.

At some of the gigs I go to, beer occasionally goes flying overhead, dousing everyone and everything under it. When that happens now, I dab my 4060s and shrug it off as par for the course. With 2 of those CCM 41Vs, the necessary cables and a new recorder, I'd be carrying 5 grand's worth of gear on me. Like everything, though, I suppose I'd get used to the idea.

A couple of questions about the CCMs, since we're back on the subject. Would you recommend the verticals (the CCM 4V) over the standard (CCM 4)? I'd imagine that's better for my purposes, but that's just an educated guess, whereas you would know for sure.

Also, there are LG and UG versions, but as usual, I can't find anything on Schoeps site that tells me what those abbreviations mean. What's the difference? The price is the same for both.

One final point on the CCMs. I know I'd lose the ability to change caps, but I'm wondering how much of a disadvantage this would be in practice. How many tapers actually decide whether to take wides, regulars or hypers to a particular show? Does the question even have any relevance in the context of stealth taping from pre-assigned seats? For stack taping, I'd imagine the hypers are always what you'd want to use. Do you agree?

Beyond that, I'd still look back to used 4021s, so long as they were in excellent condition.

New 4021s are €1539 here, just as a comparison for you.

Finally, on the question of the recorder, that DR-100 MK II does look lovely. I'm curious whether there's anything the PMD-661 offers that the much cheaper DR-100 MK II doesn't. That's something I can research on my own, though. These mics, on the other hand, are complex enough that I'm likely to make expensive mistakes if I don't first pick the brains of the experts.

Again, thanks to everyone for all of the replies. I'm struggling to reply to all of the good feedback I've had. Page, I'll get to you and your PM this evening, if I don't fall asleep at the computer as I did last night!

Cheers, everyone.

[acidjack]

At some of the gigs I go to, beer occasionally goes flying overhead, dousing everyone and everything under it. When that happens now, I dab my 4060s and shrug it off as par for the course. With 2 of those CCM 41Vs, the necessary cables and a new recorder, I'd be carrying 5 grand's worth of gear on me. Like everything, though, I suppose I'd get used to the idea.

Depends on the mount you use, but if they are in a hat, that would protect them some...

A couple of questions about the CCMs, since we're back on the subject. Would you recommend the verticals (the CCM 4V) over the standard (CCM 4)? I'd imagine that's better for my purposes, but that's just an educated guess, whereas you would know for sure.

Depends on the mount.  I know there are ways to run the V versions in hats, but most folks who stealth with Schoeps don't have Vs. I'd invite hi and lo or someone else who has actually done it (i.e., not me) to send you a PM on this subject.

Also, there are LG and UG versions, but as usual, I can't find anything on Schoeps site that tells me what those abbreviations mean. What's the difference? The price is the same for both.

One is fixed cable IIRC, one not.

One final point on the CCMs. I know I'd lose the ability to change caps, but I'm wondering how much of a disadvantage this would be in practice. How many tapers actually decide whether to take wides, regulars or hypers to a particular show? Does the question even have any relevance in the context of stealth taping from pre-assigned seats? For stack taping, I'd imagine the hypers are always what you'd want to use. Do you agree?

For your purposes, probably not.  I mean, look, I open tape, and I tape in a huge variety of venues, and I can pick and choose my spots. So yes, I spend a lot of time obsessing over what I will bring. So do lots of other guys here.  BUT, the MK41 is rarely if ever "bad" - people even use them onstage and like them.  If you are mostly or always stealthing, I can't see the 41s ever really being "wrong".  And in any venue of more than 500 or capacity, never.

For example, last night I ran MK5s and MK41s from directly behind the SBD in a 1500 capacity venue.  I *may* prefer the 5 pull slightly; I can't decide.  But if I'd only had 41s, would I be sad?  No.  Both are excellent recordings; just a little different. Most people who aren't tapers like a more directional sound like the 41s give, which is also worth considering if you care about sharing your recordings.

New 4021s are €1539 here, just as a comparison for you.

Finally, on the question of the recorder, that DR-100 MK II does look lovely. I'm curious whether there's anything the PMD-661 offers that the much cheaper DR-100 MK II doesn't. That's something I can research on my own, though. These mics, on the other hand, are complex enough that I'm likely to make expensive mistakes if I don't first pick the brains of the experts.

I haven't used either. I've used the old PMD660 with Oade mod (again not really an option for you if you want to avoid U.S.) and the SOUND was great.  To me the biggest liabilities of the DR-100mkII are (i) it's Tascam, a manufacturer with widely documented quality control issues on some products (some tapers swear by Tascam; others call it "Trashcan") and (ii) it's less "tested" than the PMD-661, meaning it's new and so there is less user feedback on this board than there is for the 661, which is the go-to 2-channel all-in-one of its size class.  That said, Steve aka tonedeaf on this board ran an extensive test of his new DR-100mkII and I respect his opinion.  Based on that, and given the lower price, I'd probably buy one if I was in the market for a new deck.  If Oade or someone would upgrade the preamps, all the better.

[aaronji]

I'm only saying they were the best choice for me personally. Since you're planning on spending a lot of money on an upgrade, take your time and get what best suits your ears. We all have our own preferences. I hope it works out well for you.

QFT

I stalked my most recent purchase for months before finally dropping coinage for it.

Me too...It's a lot of money...

If size is far and away the most important thing, you'd be hard pressed to do better than the old-style DPAs.  Otherwise, a lot of the other options being tossed around here are fairly similar size-wise.

If you decide to go the Schoeps route, I would reconsider the opposition to the boutique manufacturers.  For around the cost of a pair of CCMs, plus powering, you could get 2 pairs of caps and a CMR or nbox or the like...Duties are indeed a bitch, but you could probably avoid the brunt of it by buying the caps over here.  For repairs, I have never had to pay duties.  Just ask the person that does the repair to mark the customs form "Other: repair of broken/defective merchandise."

[newplanet7]

I'm not sure how small is small but tons of folks on here stealth with active/remote set-ups.
I roll these direct into a pmd660 mic in and couldn't be happier. My dream mics.
You could also go the route of Milab Links. The body is 4inches.  small, High-end, modular(multiple cap options), 12-52 powering, amazing sound.

[Popmarter]

Talking about milab  , Ian you might consider the vm44-Link in terms of quality and price. I am figuring out how to stealth with them, but yes they are a bit bigger than typical stealth mics. They fit a kangol, but well.....you have to like that. I use them together with mixpre-d (nice levelchecking) and a m10/r44. If you take the tascam you can go all digital.

[ianmacd]

QFT

I stalked my most recent purchase for months before finally dropping coinage for it.

Me too...It's a lot of money...

Don't worry. I'm not about to make a hasty decision. Months of research precede any major purchase I make. Sometimes, I never even make it to the purchase, because I never acquire the necessary confidence that I'm doing the right thing. That won't happen here, though. Things are moving along nicely and I feel I'm making good progress, thanks to all of the experts here. Again, thank you one and all.

At the moment, I'm favouring either the DPA 4011c or the Schoeps CCM 41(V) for the sheer elegant simplicity of the solution, but I will need to do a lot of comparative listening once my mic short-list settles down. The 4011c has the major advantages of not only being quite a bit cheaper, but also offering interchangeable MMC capsules on top of the MMP-C amp. I really don't understand why Schoeps don't have something equivalent. Yes, you can do caps > CMR/KCY > Tinybox or whatever, but the DPA route doesn't require expensive cables and an extra box between the mics and the recorder. It seems to me that Schoeps is missing a trick here. Either that, or I've missed something fundamental. To buy the Schoeps, I'll therefore need to convince myself that they're both worth the extra money for their sound image and the loss in flexibility.

If size is far and away the most important thing, you'd be hard pressed to do better than the old-style DPAs.

It's not the most important thing. As long as I can fit the mics in a hat, it doesn't much matter whether they're 2 or 4 cm.

If you decide to go the Schoeps route, I would reconsider the opposition to the boutique manufacturers.  For around the cost of a pair of CCMs, plus powering, you could get 2 pairs of caps and a CMR or nbox or the like...Duties are indeed a bitch, but you could probably avoid the brunt of it by buying the caps over here.

I hear you, but an NBox is another piece of equipment to go wrong, forget to bring, supply with power, have to stow somewhere about my person, etc. Being able to dispense with that need is very attractive, even if doing so comes at quite a price premium.

I'm not yet ruling anything out, however. I'm still in the discovery phase.

[DSatz]

ianmacd, I'm late arriving in this thread, but would strongly disagree about the Schoeps cardioids being colored toward "warmth." They are very neutral in the mid-bass region where I think most people would place "warmth" in the frequency spectrum. If I want special warmth from a directional microphone I use the MK 22 capsule.

If anything there is a tiny bit of added brightness or "air" to the MK 4, but that's a high-frequency characteristic of course, and has more to do with the MK 4's off-axis response than the 0-degree response shown in the spec sheet frequency response curve. The cardioid setting of the MK 5 has even more of this because its on-axis response is also slightly elevated at high frequencies.

How Schoeps got to be called "dark" is a mystery to me--except that so many low-price condenser microphones have outright high-frequency peaks and distortion that some people might have gotten confused into thinking was normal. If you take that as your starting point, then more neutral microphones might feel at first as if they're lacking something.

--best regards

P.S.:  Of course for certain applications neutral sound just isn't what you want, and everyone is entitled to his and/or her own preferences. I notice that a lot of people around here like the Schoeps MK 4 V capsules, which are the company's main full-range capsule (i.e. not a speech capsule) that has a distinctly audible high-frequency elevation.

[acidjack]

How Schoeps got to be called "dark" is a mystery to me--except that so many low-price condenser microphones have outright high-frequency peaks and distortion that some people might have gotten confused into thinking was normal. If you take that as your starting point, then more neutral microphones might feel at first as if they're lacking something.

--best regards

P.S.:  Of course for certain applications neutral sound just isn't what you want, and everyone is entitled to his and/or her own preferences. I notice that a lot of people around here like the Schoeps MK 4 V capsules, which are the company's main full-range capsule (i.e. not a speech capsule) that has a distinctly audible high-frequency elevation.

I think this is a lot of it.  I've noticed that people, especially folks who are new, tend to get excited about recordings that sound "clear" to them, and at times think Schoeps and other brands sound "muddy".  Well, of course something sounds "clear" if there is nothing there (i.e., any low frequency response to speak of).  I'd call it "thin" or "lacking" and would rather judiciously EQ a full-range recording than start out with one that isn't.

The other part of it is that so many people here are recording PA systems, and worse, at significant distances.  hi and lo's comment about recording in Carnegie Hall is one that has always stuck with me as an excellent distinction on this point. In a flawless room recording a natural source like an orchestra or something of that sort, a more neutral-sounding mic like the MK4 or most of the DPA line is exactly what you want - because it will reproduce that room perfectly.  While there is just something I *like* about the DPA line more than the MK4, I think it and the DPAs are more similar than some of the other mics being mentioned...

As DSatz pointed out, a lot of people here show a preference for mics with some HF emphasis - in the Schoeps line, the MK5 and MK4V in particular (and of course the more directional MK41).  This makes a lot of sense if you look at a normal rock music recording in Ozone or something, and can see that something like 50% of the captured frequencies are in the 0-200Hz range, while usually everything above 8kHz or so is significantly lower. Rock music PAs just don't put out much in the way of HF and most of them are calibrated to pump out loads of bass.  It should be expected, then, that a neutral-sounding mic will reflect that.   I like the full frequency range of the MK22 in some circumstances, but it picks up an even larger about of LF.  For rock music, judicious use of the EQ is a must to make those recordings sound right.

It also has a lot to do with your playback system.  If you have a playback system that can accurately reproduce mid-low bass frequencies, rather than reproducing them as vaguely defined boominess, you might find your preferences in mics and EQ settings will also change... For playing back on, say, your average factory car stereo system, it may well be that cheap brand x sounds "clearer" than a recording made with a better microphone...

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How Schoeps got to be called "dark" is a mystery to me--except that so many low-price condenser microphones have outright high-frequency peaks and distortion that some people might have gotten confused into thinking was normal. If you take that as your starting point, then more neutral microphones might feel at first as if they're lacking something.

The other part of it is that so many people here are recording PA systems, and worse, at significant distances.  hi and lo's comment about recording in Carnegie Hall is one that has always stuck with me as an excellent distinction on this point. In a flawless room recording a natural source like an orchestra or something of that sort, a more neutral-sounding mic like the MK4 or most of the DPA line is exactly what you want - because it will reproduce that room perfectly.  While there is just something I *like* about the DPA line more than the MK4, I think it and the DPAs are more similar than some of the other mics being mentioned...

^^ This.

More than anything, the recordings I've made where I didn't record a PA or got close enough to pick up the stage sound always sound brighter with my gear than the far-field room recordings from a typical seat. The folks over at GS don't typically think the mk4 is muddy, but they are also working on the primary sound source and not recording a PA.

[ianmacd]

Oh, one other point, you would need an additional custom solution to go KCY>661.  The KCY is terminated in a binder connector.  Naiant can build tinyboxes that work with KCY, but to go KCY>any random preamp you need a special "PFA" which is a sort of hybridized Naiant + other people solution (the primary technology is the Naiant PFA, which perhaps is the most ingenious of all of Jon's products...)

Which of the KCY cables do you use in your KCY > Tinybox config? The 5 metre one, I presume.

The cheap price of the Tinybox is very appealing, I must say. To work with the KCY, does one need to order the input with the 5 pin binder female or the 4 pin binder male? And did you need to order any other cables or extras, or are you finished once you have the caps, the KCY and the Tinybox?

The output from the Tinybox is just 3.5 mm mini, correct?

I'm starting to come back on my decision not to have any US boutique gear whatsoever. That Tinybox is just so cost-effective, when you compare against the CCMs.

[pjp]

I'm starting to come back on my decision not to have any US boutique gear whatsoever. That Tinybox is just so cost-effective, when you compare against the CCMs.

The Tinybox is a fantastic piece of equipment, I've been very happy with mine. It replaced an Nbox, which is also amazing, but the Tinybox is a joy to use with its long battery times and smaller size - couldn't believe just how small it was when it arrived. Did about 5 hours of music this Saturday, MK4>Tinybox, and it was still going strong.

[ianmacd]

The Tinybox is a fantastic piece of equipment, I've been very happy with mine. It replaced an Nbox, which is also amazing, but the Tinybox is a joy to use with its long battery times and smaller size - couldn't believe just how small it was when it arrived. Did about 5 hours of music this Saturday, MK4>Tinybox, and it was still going strong.

Bearing in mind that almost all of this technology is new to me, please forgive the following question:

When you say MK4 > Tinybox, you mean MK4 > KCY > Tinybox, right? If I've understood things correctly, there isn't a way to directly connect those caps to a pre-amp.

Secondly, can you please detail the exact options you ordered your Tinybox with? I want to make sure that what others buy matches my understanding of what I think I need.