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Author Topic: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC  (Read 4217 times)

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Offline OOK

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DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« on: July 17, 2012, 09:43:18 PM »
Has anyone tried these yet...They only need 3volts to power them.  Sounds like a pair conected to a stereo mini plug would work with a R09HR or PCM-10 direct without a battery box?  Any thoughts?  You can't get much smaller or better than this for what we do........

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/309919-REG/DPA_Microphones_4063_BM_4063_Omnidirectional_Miniature_Low_Sensitivity.html
DPA/HEB 4060's > R09HR
MBHO648/KA100Lk/KA200/KA300/KA500 > SD702

Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2012, 09:13:56 AM »
I have used these extensively with a Sonosax MiniR82.  Mine are wired to Binder connectors to use the 3V supplied by the MiniR82, which for some reason was designed to provide either 48V phantom or 3V rather than the more useful 5V which would have allowed me to use 4060s instead.  I mostly low-pass this omni signal to boost the bass on a main pair of 4099s, but the times I have used the 4063s > MiniR82 alone the results are comparable (allowing for the reduced sensitivity) to what I get with 4060s through a DPA MMA6000 preamp, for modestly loud stuff (have not tried it on clavichord music).

Jeff


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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2012, 10:08:50 AM »
If I remember correctly, I think the 4063 has comprable sensitivity to the 4061. 

I've also wondered if they will work correctly powered by the lower Voltage PIP provided by typical low cost Edirol/Sony/Tascam/etc. pocketable recorders.  The MiniR82 is in it's own category and Jeff is the only one I know of who has used the 4063.  Now that the preamps are getting clean and quiet enough on those inexpensive recorders, this is certainly something worth looking into.
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Offline OOK

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2012, 10:21:48 AM »
If I remember correctly, I think the 4063 has comprable sensitivity to the 4061. 

I've also wondered if they will work correctly powered by the lower Voltage PIP provided by typical low cost Edirol/Sony/Tascam/etc. pocketable recorders.

Now that the preamps are getting clean and quiet enough on those inexpensive recorders, this is certainly something worth looking into.

My thoughts exactly....
DPA/HEB 4060's > R09HR
MBHO648/KA100Lk/KA200/KA300/KA500 > SD702

Offline Chrysler

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2012, 06:03:00 AM »
i just got the Nagra SD Recorder to replace my old Korg MR-1.  Its super slim, very sturdy, very easy to operate and supposed to last 10 hours on two aa-batteries. 
Also it can power my DPA 4061 just fine. :)
This is super stealthy gear and you can also use the AGC-control if youre uncomfortable with resetting the levels during  the show.
Haven't tried it out in the field yet, will do soon :).
DPA 4060/61/81 > MMA-6000 > Korg MR-2
DPA 4021 > SD MixPre-D > Nagra SD

Offline aaronji

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2012, 10:54:39 AM »
^^^ I have been curious about this recorder.  Maybe you can post some details about it?  Things like ease of use, build quality and materials, a battery test, etc.?  Also, how are you terminating the 4063s?  It looks like the SD has separate left and right 1/8" inputs.  Did you just terminate each mic with an 1/8" mono male?  Or get microdot to 1/8" cables? 

Offline Chrysler

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2012, 12:10:52 PM »
I have the DPA DAD6027 connectors which terminate the mirodot cables into 1/8" mono male.
The Right Input is mic in, the left is line-in. Theres no power coming from the line-in (so only tried out a one channel as stereo recording for now).
I ordered a 2 x Mono 1/8" to 1 x Stereo 1/8" Y-Apapter to connect both mics - hopefully both will be powered....
However the Nagra Stereo Cond. Mic is plugged into both inputs - i dont know if this is for power supply (perhaps they're bridged in some kind??)
or just to make sure the mic is plugged in stable.

I usually use the MMA-6000 as preamp.
I was just surprised that the recording sounded very decent even without using the preamp.
When powering the DPA 4061 with the Korg MR-1 theres so much noise you wouldnt even want to
start recording.

The housing is top notch - only the battery lid is made of plastic and it seems like this one can break very easily - and if it does the batteries will jump-out by themself.
Usability is very easy - only flaw i found so far is the position of the hold button (small slide on the back, not on the side - so very hard to to set on and off)
Havent tested anything else yet.
DPA 4060/61/81 > MMA-6000 > Korg MR-2
DPA 4021 > SD MixPre-D > Nagra SD

Offline udovdh

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2012, 12:55:52 PM »
^^^ I have been curious about this recorder.  Maybe you can post some details about it?  Things like ease of use, build quality and materials, a battery test, etc.?  Also, how are you terminating the 4063s?  It looks like the SD has separate left and right 1/8" inputs.  Did you just terminate each mic with an 1/8" mono male?  Or get microdot to 1/8" cables?
Would it be this one?

See http://www.manvanhetgeluid.nl/?p=353 for some voltage info...
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 12:57:31 PM by udovdh »

Offline Chrysler

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2012, 03:07:40 PM »
Yes that is it.
Just did a three hour non-stop recording with mic-power on. The Battery Indicator still shows "full power". 
So this is enough battery-life to tape even long shows without having to use external backup battery.

Files are being auto-split when file size of 2 GB is reached. The split is seamless.
DPA 4060/61/81 > MMA-6000 > Korg MR-2
DPA 4021 > SD MixPre-D > Nagra SD

Offline dabbler

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2015, 10:39:51 PM »
I'm considering getting an unterminated pair of these mics, wiring them to a right-angle Neutrik stereo plug and using PiP on my M10.

Only four solder points (2 ground (shared), 1 left, 1 right), so it shouldn't be too challenging to somebody with basic soldering skills, right?
I may need to lay off the coffee for a week to be able to hold a soldering iron steady, though :x

Currently running DAB (dynamic audio binaurals) -> DA-120F (9V BB with 120Hz HPF) into the M10 (or R09), which has been my setup the past 4-ish years, so I'm feeling upgraditis :D
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 10:49:25 PM by dabbler »

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2015, 01:36:50 AM »
The coaxial shield/ground is easy to solder once separated from the reinforcing aramid fibers.  Stripping and soldering the super-fine signal wire is the bigger challenge.
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Offline dabbler

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2015, 02:57:51 PM »
You weren't kidding about the super-fine signal wire.  I ended up burning off
the insulation to solder.  Strange thing about the Neutrik right angle plug is
the ground contact does not have a hole to loop through, so I'm less certain about that solder point.

Things seem to work with PiP out of the M10 at lower volumes, but the DC Offset as reported by SoX is higher than I'm used to (Haven't listened, yet, hearing is still off after a cold).
Thinking about it more, I don't think the M10 PiP off 2x AAs should be expected
to deliver 3V unless I'm using less-common (non-alkaline) batteries or change my batteries every 10 minutes.

But my cell phone battery is 3.7V :D

Offline ~Jon Stoppable

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2015, 03:12:00 PM »
Digital recording devices would rarely run directly from battery.  Typically they need a 3.3V supply which is generated from a DC converter.

Offline dabbler

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2015, 06:39:58 AM »
I thought I posted this earlier, but maybe I only hit preview instead of post :x

So with my home stereo maxing out around 104-110 dBC, PiP off the M10 seems fine powering these.  I might be OK without a battery box for many of the shows I go to.  DC offset stayed at 0.000030, which is what I'm used to from my reference DAB > DA-120F > line-in setup, too.

I hit 129 dBC by screaming into the 4063s and DC offset jumps to -0.003368.
But I don't think I've ever hit those levels at a show, not even Mogwai(*).
I measured softer yelling into them at 117 dBC with DC offset of -0.000474.
These might be from having the levels up too high, and my voice is already gone.
My screams and yells are unlistenable regardless, so I can't give comments about
audio quality, either.

Even for most rock/metal shows I go to, the loudest levels from my DAB setup (head-mounting over ears) are from people screaming and clapping near me; so maybe I'll be OK.  I will need to learn to dial in the Mic-In levels on the M10...

I'm using a Galaxy Audio CM-140 SPL meter for dBC measurements, and that seems to max out at 130dB (not sure if that spec is A/C weighted), so maybe my scream measurements aren't very accurate.

DC offset was reported by SoX.

M10 settings: level: 4, mic sens: lo, limiter: off, 24-bit@48kHz

(*) the loudest band I've seen/recorded.  But Mogwai doesn't seem as loud as they used to be.  I wonder if:
a) they lowered their levels over the years
b) I'm favoring positions close to the stage and avoiding room gain/PA coverage
c) they are playing smaller venues with weaker PAs
d) my hearing is less sensitive nowadays :x
I remember folks without earplugs covering their ears and crouching down at the Wiltern back in the day (but I wasn't a taper back then).
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 06:42:03 AM by dabbler »

Offline ~Jon Stoppable

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2015, 11:50:41 AM »
DC offset at those levels is not a concern.  The problem you will have from levels in excess of headroom is clipping, not DC offset.  It's possible for asymmetrical clipping to register a small DC offset, but that is not the primary issue.

Offline dabbler

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2015, 02:43:38 AM »
Thanks, I was running my Mic-In on my M10 too hot (at 4) and clipping.

I think 2.0-2.5 is a safer range based on my tests off my home stereo.  Bringing the mics closer to my speakers I managed to test around 120 dBC without audible distortion when played back through good headphones.

I'll head to some loud rock/metal shows over the next few days and see how things go.

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2015, 07:47:45 AM »
It seems the 4063s output is too hot for the M10 Mic-In near the stacks at most rock shows, but should be fine for non-stack taping.

Caught The Muffs and The Dickies at The Roxy tonight.  I was near the front, 3rd row or so a few feet from the right stack.  Not my usual fare, but a fun show at a familiar venue regardless.

Using my M10 mic-in with limiter on, I recorded The Muffs set at level 2.2 or so, noticed the red "Over" LEDs lighting up my pocket.
So I lowered the M10 to around 1.7 or so for the Dickies.
I seem to remember reading levels <2 are out of the comfort zone of the M10 preamp.

The highest peak for the Dickies maxed out at -0.52 dBFS, too close for comfort and I don't want to hit the limiter too much.  RMS peak was -8.11.  Listening to the recording now, it is not a terrible recording and it doesn't seem like
there's little audible distortion (besides what seems to be the M10 limiter kicking in).

Maybe my ears hadn't adjusted or earplugs hadn't warmed up, but it seemed The Muffs were louder at the show, too.

I'll run my DIY 9V BB to line-in for Napalm Death and Voivod tomorrow.  But ick, the HoB Sunset stacks are dreadful and they've no incentive to upgrade since it's closing...

Offline dabbler

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2015, 07:17:03 AM »
OK, no real problems from the Voivod/Napalm Death gig with the 9V BB (M10 @ level=6, line-in) other than one instance of static discharge because I was wearing a static-prone compression shirt to keep my cables in check :-X

Back to running 4063 into the M10 PiP... I went down to HoB SD the next day for In Flames and the recording turned out passable after much EQ below 120Hz.
During the second opener (All That Remains), I caught some weird clicking which might have been the mics being underpowered or the M10 limiter kicking in; but there were louder sections which didn't exhibit the weird clicking (who knows, maybe it's part of the song).  I monitored the recording through ER-4S earphones, so I heard the clicking during the show, too :-X  I've attached a 2s sample, but this wasn't the loudest part of the set, either.

I only had the M10 set to level=1.5 going PiP.

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2015, 05:59:28 AM »
I'll be back to using a BB for heavy shows.  Totally overloaded during the Old Man Gloom (post/doom metal) set at the Echo.  Fantastic show but my recording turned out audibly distorted in the bass region (it'd still be an A+++ on DIME :P).  I should've run two rigs, but didn't feel like having too much in my pockets for a metal show :x

I'm sure the M10 PiP + 4063 combo would be enough for most lighter and even moderately loud rock shows.
I'm not sure I'd record UM without a BB tomorrow at the Wiltern, even (never seen them live).

Maybe I'd take the rig without a BB when traveling in parts of Europe, where shows tend to be quieter (I haven't confirmed, but there may be laws limiting SPL on shows in the Netherlands, at least).

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2015, 05:54:14 AM »
DPA 4063 > M10 PiP@level=1.8 sounded pretty good for Steven Wilson in Anaheim from halfway back without a battery box.  I even caught him on record saying he's OK with >:D audio recording as long as we don't upload.  Fine by me :)

I only intended to run the 4063 as backups, since it was only my second time out with SP-CMC-8(C) and was my first time mounting them securely.  Too bad I ended up pointing the cards too low and got as much audience noise as the 4063s :x

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2015, 04:55:51 AM »
OK, I'm getting happier with the 4063s with the PiP on the Sony M10.

Caught Riverside (bass-guitar heavy prog rock) from roughly 20 ft away from the stack with great results.  Leaving the input level exactly at 2 on the M10 gave me a peak at -6.27dBFS only due to clapping.

I suspect the problems I had the Old Man Gloom show was leaving the M10 limiter on and letting that clamp the bass peaks.  I would only trust the limiter for hand claps at acoustic shows.

When I'm running a single rig at a GA show I'd probably still choose the 4061 + battery box, but when I'm running both two rigs (SP-SPSB-10+CMC-8 cardioids), the lack of extra connections from the BB reduces the chances of a bad connector or cable.

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2017, 03:12:12 AM »
2 years later, the DPA 4063s are still going strong while my eBay 4061s I got in 2015 are mostly dead (at least my wiring needs to be redone).

4063s remain favorite mic since I can use them without a battery box on the M10 for many rock shows, but still add a battery box for the loudest shows.

I just noticed DPA started offering a beefed up, heavy duty version of these, so I ordered two more for backup purposes.  I remember they only had heavy duty versions of the more popular 4060 and 4061 mics back in 2015.

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Re: DPA 4063 Low Sens. Low DC
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2017, 02:42:33 PM »
Good to know they are working well for you.

Once upon a time I had a DPA published table which showed the mic performance changes of the 406x series at various less than specified nominal supply voltages.  I looked but can't find it in my files, and an online search didn't turn it up either.  I think I posted it in a 406x thread here at TS at some point, but could be mistaken.  The basic jist was pretty much as expected- As supply voltage drops below the nominal down, self noise rises, max SPL drops, distortion thresholds drop, and peak output voltage drops.  Obviously at some point the mic stops working entirely.  The take away is that the mic may still work when powered with a lower than it's nominal supply voltage, but is likely to be doing so with reduced performance, and to a greater and greater degree as the supply voltage drops further.

In other words, even though they are specified as requiring 5V, some 4060 or 4061 examples may still function when supplied with the low 2.5-3V PIP provided by handheld recorders.  But even if they work, they are likely to not be performing to specification, manifesting primarily as increased noise and distortion.  Where as 4063 in the same situation is likely to perform closer to spec.
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