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Author Topic: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?  (Read 5845 times)

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Offline ricola

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How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« on: May 28, 2014, 08:35:14 AM »
Hello folks,

I would like to use my new Zoom H6 for recording 2-3 sources (extern mics) simultaneous for an audience recording (48V phantom power).
The new Zoom have quite good preamps and a impressive battery live for recording with all 6 xlr inputs.
Usually I tried it with 3 Sources: AKG C460/CK61, Superlux S502 and Neumann KM184.

My questions:

1) How do you mix the 3 different stereo tracks into one stereo track? Which software did you use? I tried it with Audacity. The result is not bad, but in summary the sound

is a little bit boomy (too much bass). Is there any alternate tool available that can decide how much percent of the single source will goes into the summary mix (for

example Source 1 (ORTF Stereo room set): 50%, Source 2 (Ortf Stereo, near the PA system): 75%, Source 3 (ORTF Stereo, very closed to the stage): 100%).


2) Which mics are good to use together for a Audience mix? Any experiences? I read about preparing a Matrix source recording, but only to mix a SBD with AUD source.
I want to mix different room mics to get a more full sounding AUD source. At bt.etree or archive.org I just saw that many tapers taped with 2-3 AUD-Sources and mixed them

into one (great sounding) mix. Is there any good tutorial available??

Thanks so much (and sorry for my bad english).
Ricola

runonce

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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2014, 09:35:34 AM »
I think the guys doing these kinds of mixes are using specially positioned pairs or singles to compliment a core stereo pair. (like wide-spread omnis with a DIN pair in the center.) - or even mics pointed back at the audience. (i.e. positioning that would NOT sound good on its own)

Its hard enough mixing 2 pairs to good effect...let alone 3! (especially with ORTF where you are inviting lots more ambient/reflected sound)

Audacity will do just fine - the only alternate tool I can suggest are your ears!

I'd start with what I would consider to be the best, clearest, source - and see if any of the "roomy-er" sources can help.

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2014, 09:58:54 AM »
I think the OP  would be helped if we could give him some specific how-tos to try. 

I don't do multitrack mixes in Audacity enough to give step by step specifics in that program about how to set up individual tracks for each mic to control the volume and EQ for each track. 

If the OP has $100 to spend, he could buy Reaper to use for his mixes and get a training video from www.Groove3.com

runonce

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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2014, 10:48:21 AM »
I confess - I am wholly skeptical of the value of mixing stereo pairs...

And I wouldn't assume such sources the OP notes were actually produced by the tapers that taped them.

Offline acidjack

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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2014, 11:49:24 AM »
I confess - I am wholly skeptical of the value of mixing stereo pairs...

And I wouldn't assume such sources the OP notes were actually produced by the tapers that taped them.

This. I'd go so far as to say mixing stereo pairs from the same position is 95% of the time terrible. Actually, the only thing worse is mixing random stereo pairs from different random locations. It makes the most sense if you're doing something like an onstage pair + an audience pair. I'm assuming since you referenced a Zoom H6 that all sources are recorded on the same recorder; if they're not then you have a whole other kettle of fish to deal with, since you have to first clock-sync the sources which requires software work (it can be done in Audacity, but I suck at it, so I'll let others discuss)

The way to do that is:
In Audacity, load source 1. Then go to "FILE*Import Audio" to bring the second one into the same project.
Then, line up the sources so there is no time lag between them (onstage, for example, will be "before" an audience pair). Find a loud snare drum hit that you can isolate and line up that way.
Then as Jon said, decide which is "primary"
Using the volume slider under the "Mute/Solo" button, try starting it at zero and increasing it as you play the sources to see how much of source 2 you want to blend in.
Then FILE*Export to mix it to a single track.
Then edit that single track as normal



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Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2014, 12:04:12 PM »
I'm always skeptical when percentages are discussed for mixing. Recordings are different and one 60/40 mix  (for example) won't necessarily sound like another. I'd forget about the numbers and concentrate on what sounds best.

Offline hoppedup

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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2014, 12:36:13 PM »
Here is the post for mixing two sources in Audacity: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103031.msg1373822.html#msg1373822

It is the method I use.

I have used the gain sliders on the left to change volume until I liked the mix. I always set them back to zero and use the amplify function (just enter a negative value to reduce) to adjust the levels as I'm not sure that effect shows up when you export. When mixing, remember to have both sources peaking at -3 or below to avoid clipping when mixed.

As far as mixing two audience sources recorded from the same general location, I've only done it once. IMHO, usually one source sounds better than the other or the mix. https://archive.org/details/acousticmanner2011-07-16.mtx.flac16
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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2014, 01:04:24 PM »
I confess - I am wholly skeptical of the value of mixing stereo pairs...

This. I've heard them, I've made a couple for testing, and they just don't cut the mustard. The problem is while you get good things out of each, you also get bad things out of each, you don't really get to combine sources and only get good things... Second, you kill lots of pinpoint details related to time-delay and transients. Last, you develop a general smear across the soundstage. Pick a better mic, location, or configuration and learn for next time.

Mixing multiple mics works when you have vastly different content in each (so stage lip pairs that are focused on different instruments). Another instance would be one pair on stage and another in the audience (and then drop that one 5 or 6db in the mix except between songs where you bring it up). These all have different content in them. Stereo pairs that were done in the audience (even in different locations in the audience) all have the same PA sound in them, so you're just left with the negatives of whatever location/gear they had. That's not worth the technical deficiencies of doing mixes IMHO.
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Offline ricola

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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2014, 02:51:29 PM »
Thanks for all the replies!!

So first I have to say that I taping for many years (some of my recordings are at Dime posted by "ricola"). I usually taped with one single AUD-source in ORTF or XY Stereo. Often I used selfmade mics from a friend who are retired now and works for a famos german microphone manufactory.
Recently I tried to tape with 2 sources at the same time at the same location (cardiod and omni source). I usually tape in little Jazz Clubs and sometimes also in bigger concert halls Jazz/Fusion or Progressive stuff.
So I was impressed by the result of mixing two stereo sources...it was a more warm and bigger sound, the piano and double-bass cames out more present in the mix.

.....I'd go so far as to say mixing stereo pairs from the same position is 95% of the time terrible...
Why?? Whats the terrible effect to put two exactly same sources together?? I understand that it could be interesting to mix a Stage clip with an AUD source "with more room" located 2-3m far and in front of the stage.
But why not located at the same point and "add" this two sources with audacity?
Do you afraid to mix a bad with a good signal (from 2 completely different quality sources...for example a Rode Nt5 signal with a Neumann KM84??)
For example a Piano trio or a brass section of a Big Band sounds quite bigger with more "backroom" in the mix.
Next week I plan to record a Big Band with 2 sources (Gefell M300-cardiod and AKG C460/CK62-omni). Zoom H6 with the two sources on a stereo bar in front of the Band.


...I'm assuming since you referenced a Zoom H6 that all sources are recorded on the same recorder; if they're not then you have a whole other kettle of fish to deal with, since you have to first clock-sync the sources which requires software work (it can be done in Audacity, but I suck at it, so I'll let others discuss)....
Exactly!! Thats my experience too. It is nearly impossible to clock-sync different sources without any time difference beetween the sources. But since I use one recorder for the 2 sources (4 xlr input Zoom H6), it goes quite quickly to mix them together in audacity.

Thanks also for the tips with audacity...it seems it is the best (free) software for mixing. But I also heard from Reaper...looks interesting, I will have a look on it.

Thanks guys for your opinions and help, its always great to share such experiences here at thetaperssection forum.

Cheers!
Ricola


Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2014, 04:54:24 PM »
If looking for a "fuller" sound, try placing two card pattern mics at the center of a mic bar with outrigger omnis on the same bar.  Then mix to taste. 




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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2014, 06:21:42 PM »
^yes, this...
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2014, 06:49:38 PM »
The essential thing is that the sources need to complement each other to make mixing them together worthwhile, and that complementary aspect can take several different forms.  As others have mentioned, one good way to approach it is to have each source contributing something different, which the others sources lack. 

The more sources you plan to mix together, the more differentiated they need to be from one another.  That's more or less directly contradictory to mixing togther mutiple stereo pairs which were each setup to make a good sounding recording on their own.

It makes sense to mix an audience recording made from further back in the room with a soundboard recording or an on-stage recording because each will contribute something different without stepping on the other’s toes.  Potential problems arise when mixing things which are too similar to each other, so a general setup guideline is to try to minimize the similarities between sources which you plan to mix together. 

If I knew I would have a good on-stage pair and a good PA or soundboard recording, I'd want to setup the third pair to provide what wasn't already well represented in those other two sources.  The things I'd want in that source are the room ambience and audience reaction.  To get more of that and less of the PA and stage sound, I might put up a pair of omnis farther back in the room, or a pair of directional mics facing away from the stage out into the room.  That source will be more useful specifically because it doesn't have as much on-stage or PA sound in it as it would need if it was going to be used alone.

Similarly if you are putting up multiple microphones on the same stand with a plan to mix them together, maximize the setup differences between each pair.  Consider spacing the omnis very widely (as wide as you can, wider than you think you should) and arranging the Gefells in the center as an X/Y pair.  Those very different setups are much more likely to complement each other without mixing problems than two near-spaced pairs on the same stand pointing the same direction.  Using an X/Y configuration in the center means there are essentially only three different microphone source locations being mixed together from the same stand instead of four, so there are less interactions that can produce unwanted comb-filtering.  An ORTF pair in the middle may work too, and would be my choice over X/Y if I was using that pair by itself, but X/Y will be a safer bet when used combination with the wide omnis.

As others mentioned, when mixing start by designating one pair as the primary source.  Get that balanced and then slowly bring up the level of the other pair to see if it complements things.  Play around with the level balance between the two. Try flipping the polarity of the second pair to determine which way sounds better.  Start over again using the other pair as the primary one too see if that works out better.

It quickly gets complicated when adding more and more sources to the mix.  Anyone can simply mix a bunch of sources together, but doing a good job of it takes concentrated listening and careful adjustment.  Done well it can pay off nicely though.  Configuring your microphone setups to minimize potential mixing problems makes that job easier and more likely to be worthwhile.

We can provide general advice such as this, but trying various setups and listening to the results while mixing things yourself is the only way to really confirm what works best for your recordings and your ear.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 06:57:22 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline blg

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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2014, 11:57:32 AM »
To each his own, but I can give plenty of examples i've done where mixing 2 or 3 audience sources yields far better results than a single stereo pair, especially if they are done from different locations. I would also argue that often times stealth recordings can complement each other well because they can sound very different and one recording may be missing something that the other one has...vocals may be more up front, or low end is lacking, and the other source can fill that in.

That said, it's beyond pointless to do it just for the sake of doing it.
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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2014, 04:11:38 PM »
I have had good results mixing shotguns pointed at the stacks and cards in a wider pattern.
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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2014, 05:39:46 PM »
^^^
If doing that outdoors, recording something which you are willing to try a simple variant of the setup on sometime, try pointing those cards way wide, like up to 180 degrees apart.. and space them as widely as you can on your microphone bar as well.  You obviously wouldn't want to do that if you were only using the cardioid pair alone, but the combination with the shotgun pair allows freedom to escape typical-seeming two microphone stereo configurations.  There are sonic rewards to be cultivated in breaking free.

The shotguns provide a direct clarity (similar roll as a SBD, stack-pair, etc).
The cardioids provide smooth tonality, a lush/wide envelopment, ambience and sense of naturalness.

One is the colorful flower, the other the damp rich soil.  Together achieving the full beauty of the blossom.
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« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 05:42:34 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline pdastoor

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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2014, 02:53:57 AM »
I would do all the lining up in audacity, then if you need to clean up the sound or reduce bass or hiss or EQ then do that in Adobe Audition or if you want a free software then Nero Wav Editor can do it too. Once you are pleased with the sound, then you can export them in Audacity to .wav and it will put all the files into one file. You can use Mix and Render as well but that takes more time, saving it directly is much faster. This is the fastest way for me to do it

Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2014, 05:07:36 PM »
Reaper

Offline blg

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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2014, 06:51:48 PM »
For alignment, I use the spectral view in Audition.
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Offline hoserama

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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2014, 10:05:19 PM »
For alignment, I use the spectral view in Audition.

That'll work for alignment with audience sources, but do you do the math to resample them to align? Or do you just cut and realign periodically.
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Offline blg

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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2014, 10:25:36 PM »
For alignment, I use the spectral view in Audition.

That'll work for alignment with audience sources, but do you do the math to resample them to align? Or do you just cut and realign periodically.

I do the math.
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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2014, 10:11:48 AM »
I do the math.

IMHO, this is the only acceptable reply if you have two sources that aren't clocked together.
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Offline hoserama

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Re: How to mix 2-3 different AUD-Sources?
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2014, 10:10:35 AM »
You'd be amazed at how many people don't do the math. They'll either make cuts every so often (10-15 minutes) and realign, or they have bad enough ears that they align once and say "It's perfect!"

I had one U2 recording I released, an IEM feed, and somebody tried to time align that with a really good audience recording. I had already done this, but just hadn't released it. During one song in the audience recording, there was a half-second data packet drop from an SD card skip, or something like that. I had to zero in and identify it, and make the appropriate offset. The other dude just aligned it once and said "oh it aligned perfectly! it sounds so good!"

Thankfully he doesn't destroy recordings anymore and has basically disappeared online.
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