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Author Topic: Stack taping with omnis... But how far from stacks ?  (Read 1919 times)

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Offline fandelive

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Stack taping with omnis... But how far from stacks ?
« on: January 11, 2015, 04:15:17 PM »
Hi,

I'm taping shows for several years now (using cardioids mounted on hat).
From my gathered experience, I know you won't get a great recording if you do stack taping. At least if you stand within the first few rows.
You don't get enough bass and vocals are generally too low in the mix.

Unless I can get a good balcony spot when entering the venue, I usually walk around during the opening act until I get enough bass and pristine vocals.
Sometimes, I even think there are way too much bass from my taping location. But knowing my mics, the unwanted amount is going to be naturally filtered.
I tend to tape farther and farther show after show.

Now, I'm thinking about switching to omnis and I've read a bunch of advices given by experimented tapers about doing stack taping when using omnis.
But changing from cards to omnis won't change anything to the fact that the mix will still be poor sounding when standing front of stacks.

How far would you stand from stacks when taping with omnis ?
I guess it also has to do with venue size (small club, sport arena...) ?

I'm afraid of getting way too much bass I won't be able to roll-off in post... I also know I'll hear much more crowd chatters in my recordings if I switch to omnis.
I'm pretty much satisfied with my cardioids, but I find the results to sound too thin. I really enjoy listening back to my tapes on a good headset. But once I play them on my home stereo, the sound is just not as good.

Thanks,
-Fandelive
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: Stack taping with omnis... But how far from stacks ?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2015, 05:29:26 PM »
I'm not sure omnis will really help the situation you're in. They're best used in halls where you want the room noise.  A good omni is, by defenition, non (Or all) directional, so stack taping with omnis at a loud rock show in a shitty room will yield nothing but a noisier recording.  You may get some added warmth depending on the mics but not much else (I know there are people that swear by them for live music, but I'm just not one of them).

As far as stack taping itself goes, you can get some great recordings (I know I have) it all just depends on the artist and venue. I'm not entirely sure what you're meaning by saying you have issues with vocal level when stack taping up close. I could see having that issue taping near stage lip, but doing so makes it near impossible actually tape the stacks as they're at the side of the stage usually.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 05:39:26 PM by opsopcopolis »
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Offline firmdragon

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Re: Stack taping with omnis... But how far from stacks ?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2015, 02:10:28 PM »
i've stood close enough that i could touch the stack.  usually i would stand a little further back so that I could have a better view.  i wouldn't worry that much about crowd noise.  When I was stack taping I always thought, "No one is dumb enough to start a conversation in front of the biggest speaker in the room," yet I was proven wrong quite a few times. Doesn't matter where you stand there's always going to be someone who will want to talk in your area, it's just one of those things you can't control.

Offline Scooter123

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Re: Stack taping with omnis... But how far from stacks ?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2015, 11:46:15 PM »
I've done stack tapes with omnis and cards, not by choice but by necessity in festivals.  Personally, I think the closer you get to the stacks, the better.  It will be so frigging loud that no one will want to stand there, and those that do, are probably just passing through to the bathrooms or concession stand.  About the last thing people would want to do is stand in front of the stacks and talk.  So I've pulled some decent tapes from those locations.  Wear ear plugs and watch your levels. 
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Stack taping with omnis... But how far from stacks ?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2015, 12:17:19 AM »
Scooter's good practical advice applies most broadly. 

Here's some additional detail-

Sometimes, I even think there are way too much bass from my taping location. But knowing my mics, the unwanted amount is going to be naturally filtered.
I tend to tape farther and farther show after show.

Omnis will give you more bass on your recordings not less.

Quote
How far would you stand from stacks when taping with omnis ?

As close as you like. Some would say generally closer due to the lack of directionality, yet at the super-close limit you can actually stand closer with omnis than with cardioids without the frequency response changing radically.

Quote
I'm afraid of getting way too much bass I won't be able to roll-off in post.

As long as it's not distorted, you can always EQ it later, and in that sense there cannot be "too much".  EQing it later is better than amputating all bass below a certain frequency with a low cut anyway.

Quote
I also know I'll hear much more crowd chatters in my recordings if I switch to omnis.

and..

I'm not sure omnis will really help the situation you're in. They're best used in halls where you want the room noise.  A good omni is, by defenition, non (Or all) directional, so stack taping with omnis at a loud rock show in a shitty room will yield nothing but a noisier recording.  You may get some added warmth depending on the mics but not much else

No.  The PA is so loud that close to it that the room sound is going to be completely buried and inaudible.  Audience noise almost as much so.  Omnis work well for stack taping partly because of that "closer to the wanted super-loud sound source than any quieter unwanted sound sources" thing, partly because their response is almost always flatter than any cardioid, and partly because they are not directional and your orientation and movements are less problematic.
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Offline fandelive

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Re: Stack taping with omnis... But how far from stacks ?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2015, 12:14:32 PM »
I'm not entirely sure what you're meaning by saying you have issues with vocal level when stack taping up close.

I usually tend to tape from a few rows back because I found the vocals to be low in the mix when taping from 1st row and as close as possible from the stacks. This happened to me a couple of times.
From my own experience, mix and balance use to be better when standing a few rows back.

Scooter's good practical advice applies most broadly. 

I'm not sure omnis will really help the situation you're in. They're best used in halls where you want the room noise.  A good omni is, by defenition, non (Or all) directional, so stack taping with omnis at a loud rock show in a shitty room will yield nothing but a noisier recording.  You may get some added warmth depending on the mics but not much else

No.  The PA is so loud that close to it that the room sound is going to be completely buried and inaudible.  Audience noise almost as much so.  Omnis work well for stack taping partly because of that "closer to the wanted super-loud sound source than any quieter unwanted sound sources" thing, partly because their response is almost always flatter than any cardioid, and partly because they are not directional and your orientation and movements are less problematic.

This.
Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline dean

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Re: Stack taping with omnis... But how far from stacks ?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2015, 04:53:20 PM »
Scooter's good practical advice applies most broadly. 

Here's some additional detail-

Sometimes, I even think there are way too much bass from my taping location. But knowing my mics, the unwanted amount is going to be naturally filtered.
I tend to tape farther and farther show after show.

Omnis will give you more bass on your recordings not less.

Quote
How far would you stand from stacks when taping with omnis ?

As close as you like. Some would say generally closer due to the lack of directionality, yet at the super-close limit you can actually stand closer with omnis than with cardioids without the frequency response changing radically.

Quote
I'm afraid of getting way too much bass I won't be able to roll-off in post.

As long as it's not distorted, you can always EQ it later, and in that sense there cannot be "too much".  EQing it later is better than amputating all bass below a certain frequency with a low cut anyway.

Quote
I also know I'll hear much more crowd chatters in my recordings if I switch to omnis.

and..

I'm not sure omnis will really help the situation you're in. They're best used in halls where you want the room noise.  A good omni is, by defenition, non (Or all) directional, so stack taping with omnis at a loud rock show in a shitty room will yield nothing but a noisier recording.  You may get some added warmth depending on the mics but not much else

No.  The PA is so loud that close to it that the room sound is going to be completely buried and inaudible.  Audience noise almost as much so.  Omnis work well for stack taping partly because of that "closer to the wanted super-loud sound source than any quieter unwanted sound sources" thing, partly because their response is almost always flatter than any cardioid, and partly because they are not directional and your orientation and movements are less problematic.

Gut is pretty much spot on here. 

As for results, I can provide something you can use to comp.  Granted, you're running in hat, so this will be much different, but the archive link below is a stack omni tape where my mics were on a stand and not more than 3-4 inches away from the actual stack.  That wiped out the crowd noise almost entirely (but again, you won't be that close to the stack while also being much closer to the crowd).

Enjoy:  https://archive.org/details/dmcb2007-04-21.mbho603a.flac16
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Offline nassau73

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Re: Stack taping with omnis... But how far from stacks ?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2015, 06:04:16 PM »
As others are saying, close to the stacks drowns out the crowd pretty well. As also said, alot has to do with the room and the type of music.

Here's another example that has a solo (amplified) acoustic guitar for a few songs and then the electric band right afterwards. This one was done approximately 4 feet away from the stacks in a small club.

https://archive.org/details/DNB2011-01-29

But here's another question...

Can the increased SPL close to the stacks damage some mics?

 

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