Topic: Delete start of files in multitrack keeping sync

[slowburn]

I've done some searching and reading here but haven't found anything helpfull so I'll try the direct approach.

I do most of my recording on an Edirol r4-pro 4 channel recorder.

Most often 2 stereotracks, usually 1 soundboard and 1 room microphones

The Edirol limits filesizes to 2GB for each stereofile which means it starts a new file every 55 min or so (doing 24/96). Not a problem since they are easy enough to append afterwards. I use Adobe Audiotion 3.0

I often have to start recording well in advance of the concert start so I often have large chunks of silence at start of files. Since most shows have more than one set there are usually several files from each show that have long sections of silence. Especially when I can't/won't go to the recorder to stop/start during breaks.

Sometimes this adds several GBs to a long show with multiple breaks. This adds up real fast to a huge amount of wasted data.

The board and mic files are obviously in sync and I want to keep them that way. At the end of files I just use delete selection in Audition 3.0. Doesn't really matter if I delete a millisecond more from one of them. It's really hard to do that perfectly at the start of files though. Even if I zoom in so that I can select exactly from 0.00.000 to (for example) 10.00.000 to delete 10 minutes it is not always the filesizes match afterwards. They are usually off by a few to a few hundred bytes. Granted a few bytes in a GB file  doesn't really matter but it seems like there must be an exact way to do this.

The obvious way would be to do it in multitrack where I should just mark one selection for all the files and delete it there. There's even a function edit -> insert/delete time that looks like it should do the trick. And it does in the multitrack view but it doesn't change the original files in edit view

I guess a way to do this would also help in deleting selections before encores, while still keeping sync, as well.

Anyone know a way to do this in Audition? If not are there other software that does this?

[stevetoney]

I've used Audition for years, but still don't consider myself a power user, so there might be a better answer than this. 

I think what I'd do is, in edit view, change your time scale from seconds/milliseconds to number of samples.  Then on your first pair of tracks set the cut points at zero and someplace logical prior to the start of the music, noting the exact number of samples you're cutting.  On the second pair, do the same thing by setting your cut point at zero, but then on your second cut point,  zoom way in so that you get the exact same number of samples highlighted on the second track pair before you hit cut or delete. 

[Marshall7]

Well, what I do...is put one raw file into CD Wave, put a track split where I want the file to actually start, save a cue sheet with the track split, then load the second raw file into CD Wave, and load the saved cue sheet.   When you save the sp;it files you'll get two files for each- the first being the part you want to delete, the second the actual part you want to use.  Your resulting saved WAV files will still be perfectly time synched.

[slowburn]

Thanks

I'll try both those methods out to see which is easiest for me.

A little strange that there seems to be no method to do this in multitrack. Seems like an easy function to put in.

[Ultfris101]

If you mean specifically in Audition, I can't speak to that, but I agree it should be there. Is there a mode where you keep the multiple tracks locked so they stay in sync if you drag them?

In that mode in Audacity for example if you delete a section in one track it gets deleted in all of the other as well. I do exactly what you are talking about this way.

I typically load my raw files into Audacity and paste together as necessary if it's split across files. Repeat as necssary for both the mic and board feed or second mic pair and then as the last step trip any extra space off the start and finish that I don't want. Then I write that out individually as my raw files I use to base the project.

I've been doing more work in Samplitude and it is a bit different than Audacity. i've been moving the cursor to the place I want to cut, making sure all tracks are selected, and then there is a "Split Object" action you can use. I do that and then I can select and delete the extra stuff from each track and they are all still the same length. There's probably a simpler way but i'm still learning.

[ScoobieKW]

Non-destructive editors are the rule, especially when working with multitrack.

For safety reasons,  I don't want my main tool doing anything to my raw files.

That plus 4 TB drives selling for $130 means I'm willing to have empty space at the beginning of my files.

If I did care, I'd do the CD Wave technique.

But I really strongly feel that what you are planning is a bad idea. Master files should be left alone.

[slowburn]

Non-destructive editors are the rule, especially when working with multitrack.

For safety reasons,  I don't want my main tool doing anything to my raw files.

That plus 4 TB drives selling for $130 means I'm willing to have empty space at the beginning of my files.

If I did care, I'd do the CD Wave technique.

But I really strongly feel that what you are planning is a bad idea. Master files should be left alone.

Oh I know what drives cost. Have about 40TB in my house. Most for other reasons than audio.

If I cut off 1GB from a 2GB file 4 times for a single show (before both sets and both board and mic files) that's 4GB. I then have a back-up in my house. That's 8GB. I then have started to upload them to the cloud for extra security. A little over the top but with OneDrive starting to do unlimited for 10 bucks a month it's not a big deal. And it helps a lot when someone else needs the orignals to do some work.

So many shows I do could mean 12GB or so off wasted space. For a single show.

But it's not really about the space anyway. It's about transfer times. Any time you move such large files it takes longer. Everytime you open them in software it takes longer. Everytime someone else needs access to the orignal files via the cloud it takes them longer to download.

At some point you have to do something to your raw files right? Or do you never do eq, audience reduction, compression or anything else to your files? Please explain why splitting a file is less safe than doing anything else to it.

As long as you always have a separate back-up there is no danger. Or at least only a very slim one.

[ScoobieKW]

Non-destructive editors are the rule, especially when working with multitrack.

For safety reasons,  I don't want my main tool doing anything to my raw files.

That plus 4 TB drives selling for $130 means I'm willing to have empty space at the beginning of my files.

If I did care, I'd do the CD Wave technique.

But I really strongly feel that what you are planning is a bad idea. Master files should be left alone.

At some point you have to do something to your raw files right? Or do you never do eq, audience reduction, compression or anything else to your files? Please explain why splitting a file is less safe than doing anything else to it.

I work with raw files yes, but I do so with a non-destructive editor, in my case Reaper. All eq, mixing, compression information  is stored in a separate project file, and when I'm ready I render a mix.

The raw  file is not modified in any way during this process.
The raw files do not get modified in any way.

[Marshall7]

Being afraid of cutting superfluous stuff at the start and end of the file seems to be overly cautious to me.  it certainly doesn't harm the actual music part in any way.

[slowburn]

Yeah, so do I.

Sure you could do it non-destructive like that. There are advantages, and a few disadvantages as well. I could do that with a five year old version of Audition. But I bet few do that with 10-15 extra GB of data every couple of weeks.

There is no point in keeping say 45 min of silence in 4 channel glorious 24/96. No matter how you look at it.

As long as you have a back-up, which you need to have anyway, there is no risk.

[Brian Skalinder]

If I cut off 1GB from a 2GB file 4 times for a single show (before both sets and both board and mic files) that's 4GB.

Just out of curiousity, what, or in what scenarios, are you recording that you find yourself deleting 50% of the recorded time?

[Sloan Simpson]

If I cut off 1GB from a 2GB file 4 times for a single show (before both sets and both board and mic files) that's 4GB.

Just out of curiousity, what, or in what scenarios, are you recording that you find yourself deleting 50% of the recorded time?

In my installed location at my local club, it's easier to let the recorder roll all night than it is to get to it and start a new file each time a band is about to start. So I start recording as soon as I set up when doors open, and let it run until the end of the show. There are usually 3-4 bands on a bill when it's locals, so I have 20 minutes of dead air between each set to cut out later.

[Ultfris101]

^^^ Same here sort of. I am likely to forget to start the recorder if I try to stop between sets and start right before a band goes on. When I can I will stop and immediately start again after a band finishes so I break the files up somewhat, but still get a lot of extra most of the time.

Would rather have a lot extra than miss something. I make sure I have sufficient storage and battery to cover well more than the planned length.

[slowburn]

If I cut off 1GB from a 2GB file 4 times for a single show (before both sets and both board and mic files) that's 4GB.

Just out of curiousity, what, or in what scenarios, are you recording that you find yourself deleting 50% of the recorded time?

Well in the above example there would probably be another couple of files that there is less to delete from so I wouldn't say 50% is standard. But sure 20-30% very often.

My scenarios vary. In some cases I work at the show. In others I shot video for the band. And sometimes I don't want to be bothered and hang with friends during the show. In each case I hit record when I get the chance.

The one specific venue where this scenario most often happens has the soundbooth on a second level and just getting through the crowd to reach it is a pain. Easier not to.

This obviously need to be a venue and type of music where you know where the levels need to be. Also I don't need to run on batteries so that is not a concern.

But pretty much at any venue with multiple sets I try to get to the recorder as a set ends. I then immediatly start recording again in case I forget (or something happens where I can't, again I sometimes work the show) to start it again at the end of the break.

And in a couple of cases I've set up at soundcheck and are not sure I will make it back for when the show starts. So I just let it record from say 4 pm or whenever the soundcheck is untill end of show. The Edirol does 18 hours of 4 channel 24/96 so not a problem. In that scenario there are usually several completly empty files.

Hope nobody objects to deleting those 

[acidjack]

Sync first, then delete the silence from the mixed-down track. "Data" is cheap / ephemeral after all.

[live2496]

Pro Tools has a "tab to transient" feature and perhaps this will be in the new Pro Tools | First that will be free.
Samplitude now has that feature in the audio quantization wizard. Mentioned here: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct12/articles/samplitude-1012.htm
It seems to have been added with Version 10 of Samplitude.

Gordon

[Walstib62]

I've done some searching and reading here but haven't found anything helpfull so I'll try the direct approach.

I do most of my recording on an Edirol r4-pro 4 channel recorder.

Most often 2 stereotracks, usually 1 soundboard and 1 room microphones

The Edirol limits filesizes to 2GB for each stereofile which means it starts a new file every 55 min or so (doing 24/96). Not a problem since they are easy enough to append afterwards. I use Adobe Audiotion 3.0

I often have to start recording well in advance of the concert start so I often have large chunks of silence at start of files. Since most shows have more than one set there are usually several files from each show that have long sections of silence. Especially when I can't/won't go to the recorder to stop/start during breaks.

Sometimes this adds several GBs to a long show with multiple breaks. This adds up real fast to a huge amount of wasted data.

The board and mic files are obviously in sync and I want to keep them that way. At the end of files I just use delete selection in Audition 3.0. Doesn't really matter if I delete a millisecond more from one of them. It's really hard to do that perfectly at the start of files though. Even if I zoom in so that I can select exactly from 0.00.000 to (for example) 10.00.000 to delete 10 minutes it is not always the filesizes match afterwards. They are usually off by a few to a few hundred bytes. Granted a few bytes in a GB file  doesn't really matter but it seems like there must be an exact way to do this.

The obvious way would be to do it in multitrack where I should just mark one selection for all the files and delete it there. There's even a function edit -> insert/delete time that looks like it should do the trick. And it does in the multitrack view but it doesn't change the original files in edit view

I guess a way to do this would also help in deleting selections before encores, while still keeping sync, as well.

Anyone know a way to do this in Audition? If not are there other software that does this?

If the R4 will let you record 4 mono tracks, you will get twice as much record time before the file split. Half as many track joins in post.

[bombdiggity]

Anyone know a way to do this in Audition? If not are there other software that does this?

Audition will let you do this from multitrack.  Once loaded in the multitrack window you can delete at a common point across all the tracks.  When you save the project and close you then should save the changes to the component files as you close those (make sure they're copies of the master until you're sure all is right!). 

OTOH I think it is easier to flip your time scale to samples then just note the sample you delete at.  When you do the additional files just cut at the same sample.  It's a much easier workflow and less processing on the computer.  If you edit with the scale on a time base it is very hard to be consistent across tracks.  With the scale in samples you can be sure you're in exactly the same place.