Topic: aud mics + onstage mics

[deadheadcorey]

has anyone done a matrix with aud mics and onstage mics?

thoughts? pros vs cons?

thinking of trying it tonight. mics onstage split about 12-15 feet A/B OMNIS. aud mics at soundboard 5' ROC XY CARDS

[tgakidis]

All the time, ran that set up on Friday.  https://archive.org/details/otisgrove2015-02-27.elam260.m60.flac

[Phil Zone]

Do you run the cables through the house snakes?

[danlynch]

I've done this in small clubs where the PA will be primarily vocals and the on-stage is the only way to get the instruments fully captured.
For a standard sized room when everything is going through the PA, you're going to end up with insufficient vocals in the final mix.

[opsopcopolis]

Did it for a Snarky Puppy recording last year.  Came out beautifully.

[Cobiwan]

The only thing I can add is that you might have to add some time delay between the onstage and AUD mics to counter the time difference.

[Gutbucket]

Do you run the cables through the house snakes?

Might be easiest.

time delay between the onstage and AUD mics

^^
Listen closely while playing with the file alignment to dial in the best tight fit.

[phil_er_up]

mics onstage split about 12-15 feet A/B OMNIS. aud mics at soundboard 5' ROC XY CARDS

If you think of the above scenario it is really the same as a SBD feed with a AUD mics in back of the venue. Just position of SBD feed and onstage Mics are different...more of a time difference and phase situation to get right in post exercise. 1 ft = 1 ms in post (nudge factor) play with it till you get it right. I do this all the time with my shows, if the mix's match well and you get it nudged very close to spot on...it can sound very good. Sometimes sources do not mix well for a variety of reasons...never know till you get home...

PS: You can take a tape measure with you to the venue and measure the distance. Have written down for various venues how far from stage to first rail, FOB and BOB distances for a general rule on where to start the nudge.

[2manyrocks]

Unless you monitor the mix on headphones while it's being recorded, the results when you get home can be unexpected.  The balance between instruments and vocals on stage is one thing, and then you have the sometimes odd mix coming out of a board.  Sometimes they are amping guitars and bass from the stage amps with vocals from the PA, and that can be a factor.  Things may sound fine in the room, but I think there is a certain risk in micing on the stage and getting a feed from the board.  It could be great or it could go wrong depending on the relative loudness of what is being captured among what's happening on stage (unless the sources are perfectly balanced on stage), what is being recorded on your mics and what is being recorded from the board.   I think you lessen your risk with a headphone or earbud check of what you're getting. 

The whole question of how to record something when a PA is involved I have not mastered by any means. 

[Gutbucket]

Personally I find no need to actually measure the distances since I'm going to play around with the file alignment until things sound right anyway.  Gives you a starting point I guess, but that's easy enough to find quickly afterwards without a measurement.

These are really three entirely different things: A SBD patch, an AUD pair in the back of the room, and either an on-stage or stage-lip pair.  On-stage/stage-lip+AUD isn't really a close analogy for stage-lip+SBD or for AUD+SBD.

Is the AUD pair in back analogous to the SBD feed?  Not many around here would argue that it is, they are obviously very different.  The AUD has all the room and audience in it and a far more distant perspective on the sound from the stage.  Yet in the case of on-stage+AUD, the AUD is what is going to provide the elements which are heard from the PA that are not picked up on-stage.  Vocals are the most obvious thing in that category, but also things like anything going direct to the board such as acoustic instruments, or other stuff only weakly amplified next to the musician, which relies heavily on the monitors and PA.  Unless you are getting that stuff from an on-stage monitor, it's probably represented very weakly in your on-stage channels.

Is the on-stage/stage-lip analogous to the SBD feed? Not usually, for the same reasons just mentioned.  And that's why on-stage/stage-lip + SBD is often a good way to go when you are restricted to 4 channels.  The only part not mic'd in that case is the room and audience, and you may get enough of that in your on-stage/stage-lip pair anyway and not care for more of it.

[Gutbucket]

For that reason, if you can get a SBD feed, and are allowed to put microphones on the stage, I'd suggest eliminating the AUD pair back at the board.  Just use the on-stage/stage-lip + SBD.

Useful variations on that- (notice that none of these include an AUD pair back by the board)
1) Recording 4 channels: A pair for on-stage/stage-lip + a single mono channel of SBD (which is probably all or mostly mono anyway, why waste two channels recording it?) + a single room/audience-reaction channel (a cardioid or supercard facing away from the stage and into the audience from the stage or stage-lip)
2) Recording 5 channels: Same as 1, but with a stereo pair facing out at the room and audience (wide space the pair at the edges of the stage pointing out into the room, or arrange them some other way to reduce pickup of both the PA and the sound coming from the stage as much as possible.
3) Recording 6 channels: Pair on-stage/stage-lip, pair for the SBD, pair facing out at the audience and room.

All these have your mics located in the same part of the room (on-stage/stage-lip), making things more easily manageable.  They also place all your mics in relative close proximity to the house-mics feeding the PA, so you'll have less aligning to do, and might be able to get away without having to do any.  Although I'd still slide the files around while listening to check if you can get it tighter.

[phil_er_up]

Corey asked about on stage mics and mics in the back of the room NO SBD feed. SBD feed was in my discussion ONLY.

Last 3 posts took what I said incorrectly...did not state what I wanted to say very well...since this went off topic from corey post will try and bring it back...

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Back to corey topic.... mics onstage split about 12-15 feet A/B OMNIS. aud mics at soundboard 5' ROC XY CARDS - NO SBD feed.

thoughts? pros vs cons?

[Gutbucket]

Right, I was only commenting on the big problem I saw with the comment about it "being the same as a SBD feed", and then addressing the issue of when a SBD feed involved in a general sense.  No offence intended toward you.

In Corey's case of onstage omnis split ~12-15 feet + cardioids 5' ROC at the soundboard in X/Y (and no SBD feed), I'd much prefer to run the cards in a PAS config if they are towards at the back of the room, or maybe a near-spaced config with a slightly wider but still narrow angle between mics (like DIN rather than ORTF).   X/Y will work, but would probably be my last choice of mic config from back there.

[danlynch]

The vocals will be buried in the final mix. 

[Gutbucket]

^^
PAS ..and use less of the on-stage omnis in the mix if that's the case. 

The onstage omnis will still be useful over just a PAS AUD from the back of the room on it's own, IMO.