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Author Topic: Tips For Setting Up On-Stage Microphones  (Read 3030 times)

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Offline OldNeumanntapr

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Tips For Setting Up On-Stage Microphones
« on: December 16, 2015, 10:11:05 PM »
Greetings all,

I have received permission to set up my Neumann KM-140s on stage to record an upcoming Paul Thorn concert. Normally, I hang the Neumanns on the front center ceiling post at SLO Brew, but the unreinforced masonary building is being torn down to make way for new office buildings and the show will be held at the Fremont Theater, which is an old art-deco movie theater built in 1942.

I've never recorded on stage before, except for small local band rehearsals, when I used three Nakamichi CM-300s + a vocal channel off the main mixer board. Does anyone have any tips for placement? I want to try to get good sound, both on vocals and instruments, from on-stage instrument amps + vocal monitors.

This will just be two channels and run into my Beyer MV-100 >Tascam DR-100mkII.

Thanks,

ONT-

Offline Jhurlbs81

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Re: Tips For Setting Up On-Stage Microphones
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2015, 07:50:39 AM »
Getting the vocals in there will be the tough part since the wedges face towards the back of the stage, and the instruments/amps face forward. Is running from the audience not an option?
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Tips For Setting Up On-Stage Microphones
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2015, 09:15:55 AM »
Refer to the current on stage taping thread- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=1625.0

With ORTF from a good central spot on stage you're usually good for instrumentals.  Amplifiers are often very directional and loud on-axis down at stage level, so it's easy to get good reach far across a stage to those, play with placement and how on-axis they are.  Drums demand more proximity, unamplified acoustic instruments much more proximity, and acoustic instruments amped via PA-and-monitors but not on-stage amps can be very difficult to represent well unless you have a monitor mic'd directly with a 3rd channel (best if you can get no board patch), or a monitor positioned correctly within the window of your ORTF pair (more difficult but sometimes possible), or a mic or two out in the audience catching the PA (good application for stack taping).  Vocals are not a problem to catch with the ORTF pair if close and the vocals are not amplified.  If they are amplified, they are pretty much like PA-and-monitor amped acoustic instruments, except more critical- you'll ideally want a board patch, or a monitor mic'd with a third channel, or a monitor within the ORTF window (can be tricky to to get a good balance that way with the other on-stage sounds), or a mic or two out in the audience (stack tape, close AUD).

Its easy to make great tapes on-stage when there is no PA or monitors!  It gets more difficult when a PA comes into play.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 09:18:12 AM by Gutbucket »
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline OldNeumanntapr

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Re: Tips For Setting Up On-Stage Microphones
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2015, 08:39:19 PM »
Thanks for the advice.

There is really no place to set up a mic stand at the Fremont. From what I hear it won't be Paul's complete band, but I don't know for sure.  I thought that I could set up near Paul's vocal wedge with the mics low and facing the back of the stage, to pick up the stage amps. ORTF would probably work fine.

The only other thing I thought that might work is to set up near the house PA stacks. Since the complete PA will have to be brought in to the theater at load in, (the Fremont is a movie theater), the PA stacks will be on a hoist on stage. I have two Interfit light stands from my photographic equipment that I can use. I have to get the 1/4" >5/8" adapters to mount the microphone clips. I could place one near each of the house PA stacks on stage and at least get the benefit of recording the mixed sound. They will NOT allow a board patch, but will allow me to set up on stage. I will be going in at sound check.

I will be running long XLR cables and setting up the preamp / recorder off to the side where I can start it right before the show.

I'm just trying to get everything worked out in my head so I can evaluate all the options.

ONT-

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Tips For Setting Up On-Stage Microphones
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2015, 09:39:08 PM »
Tough one with just two channels.  If you had a third I'd go ORTF on stage plus mic one of the PA speakers, then pan that PA stack tape channel to center.

Being in for sound check really helps.  From what you mention I see two options I'd consider. The first more standard an simpler, the second more radical.  In for sound check means you can asses the simpler one by just listening and make a decision at that point.

1) ORTF on a low stand with the mics peering over Paul's vocal monitor at everything else on stage.  Put your head there during sound check and see what the balance sounds like.  Ideally, you need a way to sort of cantilever the mics from the low stand over the monitor so that its radiation is pointed directly at the bottom of the mic capsules, even though the mics are facing the stuff on stage.  The 140s will be well off-axis from the monitor, but those mics are well behaved off-axis and that may work just fine.  Trust your ears and move the mics to where the timbre and level mix between monitor vocals and all the stage sound is best.  Success is partly dependent on how good the monitor sounds and what Paul likes in his monitor.

2) Wide split with the mics on high stands on each side of the stage, each mic'ing the PA speaker on each respective side, yet angled inwards and downwards so they both point to the same spot at the the center back of the stage (drum kit there?).  No worries about an over-wide split as the mono(ish at least) PA will image strongly in the center of the playback image if each mic is the same distance and angle from its own PA speaker.  Can't put your head there during sound check to listen, so the balance is more of a gamble, but you get the full PA house mix instead of a monitor, and the PA is probably more on-axis to mics than the monitor, both of which are good.  You're also likely to get a good open room and audience representation this way.  Don't get so close to the PA that it completely swamps the on stage sound, the room ambiance and the audience reaction, or you will only be making a sterile stack tape.  The key is the correct distance from each speaker for good balance and pointing both mics at center back stage for a cohesive stage image.

In a some ways these are very different, but in other ways very similar.

Just my ideas, feel free to modify or ignore and best of luck.  Seems like a fun one.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline OldNeumanntapr

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Re: Tips For Setting Up On-Stage Microphones
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2015, 04:47:08 AM »
Thanks for the input. That seems like really good advice. I like both of the options. I will probably do whatever is easiest for the band.
The stage at the Fremont is decent sized, especially for a movie theater. The last time I was there for a concert was during the SLO Film Festival in 2014, the same week that the Malaysian plane disappeared. The surf band Honk played a short set at the end of the surf film 'Five Summer Stories' for 'Surf Night'. I was about 5th row on the left, and remember that Bill was using his E&W PA speakers on hoists at each end of the stage. I had actually thought about setting up two stands at each end of the stage with the KM-140s angled in and down. That might work the best. I don't know how far away from the PA speakers I can get because I don't remember exactly how deep the stage is, and where the speakers will be. The Fremont has curved walls inside and has pretty nice sound. I've recorded Los Lobos there twice, in the early 90s.

If I still had my CM-300s I'd try to borrow a mixer and run a combo of ORTF onstage plus a miked PA cabinet, but I sold them to buy the Neumanns.

Offline OldNeumanntapr

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Re: Tips For Setting Up On-Stage Microphones
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2016, 03:53:17 AM »
Well, you know what they say about the 'Best laid plans'. When I arrived at the Fremont Theater just before sound check, I found out that yes, I could set up anywhere I chose to, including onstage, BUT.... The band's instruments were all DI (no onstage amps), AND they were using in ear monitors, so the only sound they had on stage was some side fill wedges that were not full range. Ryan, the house soundman, suggested that I set up against the far back wall of the theater, near the board. I didn't like that idea because it was too far from the stage. I asked Todd, the promoter, where he had chosen for me to sit and he said 10th row center, on the right aisle. Hey, that was looking pretty good, but I was a little concerned about setting up a stand. I asked him if I could set up my stand there and he said no problem. As it turned out, the theater, which holds just under 1,000 people, was only 1/3rd filled and there was only two other people in my row. I had brought two stands with me in the hopes of setting up near the stage and in front of the PA stacks, but I couldn't have raised the stands up high enough, and there was no room on the sides up front.

I ran my stand about seven feet high, and my 'worry-wort' friend Dave was Certain that someone would complain about the microphones, but...no one did. Ryan walked by as I was setting up and asked if Todd had OK'd the stand and I said yes so he said, 'Oh, Alright'. I wasn't sure if the seat next to me had been sold, so I set up my preamp and recorder at the base of the stand in the aisle. Everything went fine. I had to answer a lot of questions from confused inquisitive patrons about the recording gear but I'm used to that. The crowd was fairly quiet and polite, and only applauded between songs.

Billy Maddox, Paul Thorn's manager and sound technician, as always, was really helpful to me and repeatedly asked if I needed anything and if I was OK. The band is very taping friendly but Billy would like tapers to go through him for permission and he requires you to send him an electronic copy before sharing so he can check it. I'm trying to convince him to allow Paul to be included on the Live Music Archive but he said that he is still thinking about it. The recording sounds pretty good, though I miss being able to hang my Neumanns from the concrete ceiling post at SLO Brew, which has since shut down and is scheduled for demolition.

The Fremont, a historic movie theater built in 1942, has it's own recording challenges because I now have to deal with the crowds. Maybe I will try running a stand near the back wall at a future date, especially if I can record a band that would be agreeable to a soundboard / audience matrix. It's an interesting old building, with curved interior walls, and has nice acoustics. They don't build theaters like that anymore.

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Re: Tips For Setting Up On-Stage Microphones
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2016, 08:57:14 AM »
^ FWIW, not that I'm a big theater taper, but I have had good luck setting up in the seat next to me with the microphones at head height. I figure somebody can hardly complain about microphones when they're in the same place where someone's head would be. of course, if it's an assigned seating show, that does mean you have to buy that seat....
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Tips For Setting Up On-Stage Microphones
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2016, 09:22:02 AM »
Thanks for posting the follow up story!  Always good to hear how it actually works out in reality.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline OldNeumanntapr

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Re: Tips For Setting Up On-Stage Microphones
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2016, 08:30:50 PM »
I think the recording sounds pretty decent. I really want to upgrade my microphone preamp eventually. I think the Beyer is the weak link in the chain. I'd like to get another Lunatec V2 for open taping shows. I had one once, but ended up exchanging it for a DA-P1. Now the DA-P1 is dead and I miss the V2.

(The seats were all reserved, and the promoter put me on the guest list. I only took one seat because I didn't know if the others near me had been sold. Fortunately they were not, but by the time I realized that the show was nearing to start and my gear was all set up.)

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Re: Tips For Setting Up On-Stage Microphones
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2016, 09:15:55 PM »
^^^^^^^ Nice story; love to hear you out there doing it Brother! Helping someone get on the LMA is a good deed; now if they would only hear you and sign up!     8)
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