Topic: the Marenius thread: MM-4220, SMF-5 mkIII etc (was "smallest 4ch/2tr")

[sunjan]

[Edit: I changed the title of the thread to reflect that we're talking about all current Marenius gear]

Just launched in January 2009, this looks like a contender to the R44 for the smallest 4-channel all-in-one unit.

Cheaper than the SD 744T but more expensive than the R44, the currency slump of the Swedish Krona made it more affordable.
Selling in Sweden for 13600 SEK (excl tax), this translates to $1550, provided you find a way to import it without customs.

The biggest drawback is the bitrate: recordings are restricted to 16/48 only.  Maybe their developers will listen to the market and release a 24bit version later on?

I like the form factor. 
Size W x H x D approx. 140 x 60 x 136 mm

Compared to R44:
Dimensions 157(W) x 61(H) x 183(D) mm

Compared to SD 744T:
209 mm x 45 mm x 125 mm (H x W x D)

http://www.marenius.se/products/mm4220.html

The MM-4220 is a true professional Stereo Mixer for portable use, made by MARENIUS. It offers four mic/line input channels, built-in Compact Flash card Recorder, PPM metering with 2 x 8 multicolor LED's, low-noise amplifiers and power supply based on re-chargeable NiMH cells for up to 8 hours use. All this is housed in a compact, all-metal heavy-duty case.

The front panel holds all controls for the mixer. On top of the panel are toggle switches for Power, Test Tone and Battery Test. Each of the four inputs has a gain control pot and a pan pot. In addition there is a gain selector switch for 0, 24 or 48 dB gain. The gain pot adds up to 12 dB and the master pot adds another 12 dB for a total of 72 dB gain, input-to-output. There is also a toggle switch for inserting a HP-filter for bass-cut.
On the upper part of the front panel is the PPM bar graph with 16 multicolor LED's covering the range 0 to -50 dBu in optimized step size. You will also find the Master pot and the Headphones pot, as well as a switch for selecting 48V phantom power for 0, 2 or 4 channels.

The CF card slot will accept up to 8 GB cards. Recording is uncompressed WAV format on FAT32 formatted cards. Recordings are stereo, 16 bits @ 48 kHz, while the internal A/D and D/A converters use 24 bits for higher precision. You will then be sure to get a full 16 bits resolution onto the CF card.

The backside panel holds all sockets for input and output plus external power supply.
There are four input sockets (XLR-3F), for the input channels. Each input has its corresponding toggle switch for enabling 48 V phantom power. There are two sockets (XLR-3M) for the main outputs L and R. A 3.5 mm stereo socket is intended for headphones of most kinds, 32 - 2000 ohms impedance. There is also an AES3id* coaxial output and a USB socket for software updates.

External power supply can be used for prolonged up-time or when the mixer is used in a non-portable mode. The external power should be 18 V @ 1 A. When powered from internal accumulator, expect a total working time of 6-8 hours, depending on battery status and temperature. A high-speed charger function is included for a charging time about 2.5 hours.

*AES3id is a newer standard allowing for transmission of AES3 pro format signal over a 75 ohms coaxial wire at distances up to 1000 meters. It is, in most cases, compatible with both AES/EBU and S/PDIF inputs.
Technical Data
Frequency range 25 Hz -22 KHz (-3 dB)
THD <0,004% @ 1 kHz, +12 dBu
Max. gain 72 dB (48+12+12)
Signal-to-noise ratio >94 dB @ 0 dB gain, A-weighted
Crosstalk at full pan <-50 dB
Equiv. input ref. noise <-122 dBu, A-weighted @ max gain
Input sockets XLR-3F
Audio input impedance  2 K ohms(mic), 20 K ohms(line)
Audio input level max. +12 dBu
Output sockets XLR-3M
Audio output impedance 2 x 100 ohms balanced
Audio output level max. +12 dBm (600 ohms)
Phones socket 3.5 mm 3-pole
Phones output 2.0 Vrms into 300 ohms
Phones impedance 32 - 2000 ohms
Test tone 1000 Hz +/-0,001% @ -12 dBFS
Phantom power 48 V+-6 V, max 5 mA @ 90%
Power supply: internal NiMH
or ext. 18 V DC @ 1 A
Current drain <220 mA
Charge current 650 mA
Size W x H x D approx. 140 x 60 x 136 mm
excl. sockets and knobs
Weight approx. 950 grams

Carrying case: optional

[mr qpl]

for the metrically challenged thats 5.5"  x 2.4"  x 5.3"

a little brick.

[JackoRoses]

between this
"File memory Compact Flash, type I, FAT32
formatted, max 8 GB "
and this

"File type WAV, stereo,
uncompressed, 48/16 " Which you pointed out already.
I don't see it being that serious of a contender. I like the construction of it though.
to add at least for me, not saying it doesn't have a market...

[kbergend]

I think this is actually a stereo recorder with an integrated 4-mic mixer in front of it, not a true 4-channel recorder.

[audBall]

I'd like to give their two-channel transformer pre a run...


SMF-5
http://www.marenius.se/products/smf5.html

[sunjan]

I think this is actually a stereo recorder with an integrated 4-mic mixer in front of it, not a true 4-channel recorder.

Ooops, you might be right, I didn't read the specs carefully enough. 
Four simultaneous inputs, but just two tracks recorded. Maybe not such a hot item after all.

[Colin Liston]

The Sonosax Mini R82 is smaller. 

[sunjan]

The Sonosax Mini R82 is smaller. 

Good point! But AFAIK, it has only two analog inputs. Plenty of competition in that segment.
Marenius has 4 x XLR, all with mic preams and P48. That's why I'd rank it as more versatile.

After some consideration, true four-tracks like R44 still represents better value for money compared to the Marenius.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

How would you power this. It says 18V on it.

[Krispy D]

still pretty!

[Ozpeter]

Although this device indeed does not appear to be the equivalent of the R-44 with its four separate recorded channels, it does again point up the downside of the R-44, namely lack of monitor mixing (which is crucial in some uses, and not required at all for many Taperssection-reader uses).   The Marenius device implements the concept of a mixer with a recorder, although it's indeed a pity that it's a four input mixer feeding a stereo recorder rather than a four channel recorder feeding a stereo output mixer.

In my view the R-44 would have been that much better if the digital gain facility had been omitted and if the knob now used for that purpose was a replay/monitoring level control.  If that knob was also pushable like the headphone level knob, its function could have then toggled between monitor level and monitor pan.  That way you could record four well modulated channels but also monitor or play back a balanced and panned mix at the same time, rather than the present system which allows playback level only to be set in playback not record, and left/right assignment only determined by which channel the source happens to be connected to.

[intpseeker]

So what does this mean: 

'Recordings are stereo, 16 bits @ 48 kHz, while the internal A/D and D/A converters use 24 bits for higher precision.'

[sunjan]

So what does this mean: 

'Recordings are stereo, 16 bits @ 48 kHz, while the internal A/D and D/A converters use 24 bits for higher precision.'

Beats me?! Paging Dsatz... 

Regarding power, this is the description from the manual:

Power Supply
MM-4220 runs from an internal NiMH power pack. This is a high capacity pack with re-chargeable accumulators for a full working day without need for additional charging.
The included mains adapter/charger unit can be used for both charging and powering the mixer.
The power supply has a 2.1 mm plug, polarity is any. For both powering and charging the minimum current capacity must be 1 A @ 18 V DC.
When connected the LED next to the socket will be lit red. When the mixer is fully charged the LED will be lit green. This may take up to 2,5 hours for a fully discharged unit.
There is no need to discharge the unit before charging.
The internal, intelligent charging circuitry handles the complete charging cycle.

Just found out one more thing.
MM-4220 is available for rental in Sweden. One day costs 90 SEK = $10, which is a real bargain!
My problem is that I don't have high-end mics (or stands) that would justify this box. But maybe something for other Swedish tapers who want to try on new gear?  ghellquist...?!

[ghellquist]

MM-4220 is available for rental in Sweden. One day costs 90 SEK = $10, which is a real bargain!
My problem is that I don't have high-end mics (or stands) that would justify this box. But maybe something for other Swedish tapers who want to try on new gear?  ghellquist...?!

I might check it out. Marenius is well known among professional TV and radio people here, not a household name though. They have a long history of making specialized stuff for that market.

I run a Sound Devices 722 for two track. For more tracks I have a rack with 8ch of Millenium Media HV3D and Lavry Blue converters + some added channels through a RME Fireface 800. And the mics to go with it. Thinking about downsizing to a SD788T, might happen or not.

// Gunnar

[sunjan]

MM-4220 is available for rental in Sweden. One day costs 90 SEK = $10, which is a real bargain!

Forgot to post the link to the rental:
http://sthlm.filmcentrum.se/media/user/files/prislista.pdf

I just got a mail from Mr Marenius himself (living legend here in Sweden among audiophiles).
He was interested in maybe joining the forum, so he could answer some questions directly, and explain his rationale behind the 24bit>16bit conversion. Stay tuned...

[marenius]

Hi all!

First of all, the mixer available for rental in Sweden is MM-3100 and not MM-4220.
MM-3100 is a 3-inputs mono mixer.

About the 16/24 bits issue:
Our goal with the design of MM-4220 has been to make a professional 4 inputs mixer with an additional recording feature.
In order to keep power consumption low we decided to go for 16/48. For 24/96 the processor capacity would have been 3 times larger and we would also need a lot more memory to compensate for the fairly slow writing time to the CompactFlash card. All this would increase power consumption.
This was an easy decision, since very few portable mixers, MM-4220 included, will offer much more than 96 dB dynamic range = 16 bits. 24 bits would be overkill, nice to write in a datasheet but quite useless.
As of today, there are no 24-bit converters that actually offer 144 dB dynamic range and I seriously doubt there will be. One of the very best A/D´s is CS5381. It offers 120 dB dynamic range = 20 bits.
Note that old times 16-bit A/D´s only delivered about 14,5 bits of resolution.
In MM-4220 we get the full 16 bits resolution.
There is also a digital AES3id output that delivers 24 bits, although dynamic range is still limited to less than 100 dB.

FYI we have started a design project with the goal to make a 6-channels mixer with 6-channels of parallel recording at 24/96. This will be a larger unit and, of course, much higher priced.
We would be happy to receive suggestions to features and performance goals for this new mixer.

In the US, Markertek has distributed our MM-3100 mixer for almost two decades.
The last few years the low rate of the USD has made it hard to avoid losing money on this mixer.
Also, the insurance cost for putting products on the US market is extreme.
Lately, the USD rate has improved a lot and we are considering to increase our activities in the US market again. Meanwhile, we can offer direct sale with payment through PayPal. Today the price for MM-4220 is USD 1700.00 excl. VAT and shipping cost.

/Leif

Links:
http://www.marenius.se/products/mm4220.html
http://www.marenius.se/products/mm3100.html

[Roving Sign]

Hi all!

First of all, the mixer available for rental in Sweden is MM-3100 and not MM-4220.
MM-3100 is a 3-inputs mono mixer.

About the 16/24 bits issue:
Our goal with the design of MM-4220 has been to make a professional 4 inputs mixer with an additional recording feature.
In order to keep power consumption low we decided to go for 16/48. For 24/96 the processor capacity would have been 3 times larger and we would also need a lot more memory to compensate for the fairly slow writing time to the CompactFlash card. All this would increase power consumption.

I think the confusion is stemming from understanding the 24bit processors role in producing a good 16 bit signal...perhaps we all just assume if it's a 16 bit unit - then the A/D must be 16 bit.

Im guessing this means there is a 24 bit capture which is then dithered down to 16 bits before being recorded to the card...(for the reasons you mention)

this probably isnt that uncommon...I think even the JB3 has a "24 bit" A/D in it...(been a while since I looked at that stuff...?)

[Gutbucket]

The biggest concern I'd have is the recorder portion. The display appears very minimal with a single LED indicator on the faceplate. No time display, filename, etc.

18vdc power can be provided by wiring up an external battery pack with lower voltage cells in series- Two 9v Li-ion 'DVD' batts, or twelve 1.5v cells (standard AA's, D's, C's etc).

[ghellquist]

It is confusing yes, but the reason is quite simple.

No one of us has ever experienced 24 bit resolution. There is not a single machine useable on location that actually supports 24 bits. You cannot buy a series produced sound frequency box anywhere that really supports 24 bits full out, not at any price. (You might find things like that in a radio telescope where they cool the electronics with liquid helium).

Many of the smaller boxes, say the R09 or whatever, just about reaches 16 bits with a bit of stretcg. The sellers lie to you when they call them 24 bits. It is sort like the people putting extra large exhaust pipes on their cars - no more motor but the bystander might believe it. The older 16 bit boxes often came to 13 or 14 bits in real-life performance.

The simple reason is that the electronics in the boxes are noisy. The noise masks any real info coming in the last bits. How many last bits depends on the electronics. The simple and fast rule is that to get lower noise you need to burn more power, ie shorter battery life. Or alternatively use a transformer, meaning heavy and expensive.

So in a light, inexpensive box with long battery life you know what to expect -- noise. Meaning less bits of true-world performance.

In this world of marketing hysteria (you know people are already talking about 384 KHz sampling) it is so refreshing to see a manufacturer that both knows what he is doing and does not lie to you.

// Gunnar

Of course, there are boxes supporting more than 16 bits full out. But not as many as marketing wants us to belive. Tell tale is the figure S/N (signal to noise ratio). Below 100dB and we are talking 16 bits max. A problem -- absolutely not, a typical rock concert might have a dynamic range of 20 dB. A breeze for a 15 bit recorder.

[Todd R]

Interesting find.  Personally, for what we do, I think recording 4ch separately in the field and doing a post-production mix down to 2ch makes it easier to accomplish good 4ch mixes than trying to get it right in the field.

That said, Marenius make very nice gear.  I owned and ran the Marenius MM4210 4ch preamp and mixer for awhile, and this looks like its successor.  The MM4210 was very well thought out, came in an excellent small package with very good ergonomics, and sounded great.  With its size and its sound, I would also recommend it just as a 2ch preamp.

If anyone is interested in checking out the Marenius sound, Trew Audio has a used Marenius MM4200 mixer (the generation before my MM4210, two gens earlier than the mixer/recorder in this thread) for $300CAD, which is about $240 US -- really a great price.  At this price, it really is worth checking out even just for use as a 2ch mic preamp.  At least assuming it sounds as good as the old MM4210 I had, which it probably does.

[H₂O]

Good point! But AFAIK, it has only two analog inputs. Plenty of competition in that segment.

The Mini-r82 actually has 4 Analog inputs (MIC/LINE 1-2 and LINE 3-4)

[sunjan]

First of all, the mixer available for rental in Sweden is MM-3100 and not MM-4220.
MM-3100 is a 3-inputs mono mixer.

Looking at page 4 in this PDF, it sure looks like Filmcentrum do offer both the 3100 and the 4220 for rental?!
http://sthlm.filmcentrum.se/media/user/files/prislista.pdf

Is that a typo, or maybe the unit hasn't been delivered to them yet?

If ghellquist jumps the gun and takes it out for rental one day, I'm itching to be his sidekick/rigger, just to see the test results... 

[Colin Liston]

Interesting find.  Personally, for what we do, I think recording 4ch separately in the field and doing a post-production mix down to 2ch makes it easier to accomplish good 4ch mixes than trying to get it right in the field.

That said, Marenius make very nice gear.  I owned and ran the Marenius MM4210 4ch preamp and mixer for awhile, and this looks like its successor.  The MM4210 was very well thought out, came in an excellent small package with very good ergonomics, and sounded great.  With its size and its sound, I would also recommend it just as a 2ch preamp.

I have the MM4210 (your old one?) and it is a fine pre-amp.  I don't run it near enough but it makes for an excellent 2 channel preamp.

[Ozpeter]

In portable location recording gear, 24 bits indeed is unlikely to give you a demonstrable benefit in the actual sound (in terms of dynamic range) but it does enable you to record at conservative levels without anything useful disappearing off the bottom.  And in the heat of a live recording, conservative levels are good.  So I don't regard 24 bit capable gear as a total con - just bear in mind the realities and the purpose.

The typical dynamic range of a 16 bit recording is I believe about 96dB.  In your DAW try reducing the level of part of a loud recording by 70dB, and play it back in your usual listening environment having set the replay level according to how the unchanged loud bit sounds.  I think you'll struggle to hear the -70dB level, let alone hear -90dB or less.  Finding locations to record in, and locations to replay in, that justify more than a 96dB dynamic range is really, really hard - in my view.

[marenius]

First of all, the mixer available for rental in Sweden is MM-3100 and not MM-4220.
MM-3100 is a 3-inputs mono mixer.

Looking at page 4 in this PDF, it sure looks like Filmcentrum do offer both the 3100 and the 4220 for rental?!
http://sthlm.filmcentrum.se/media/user/files/prislista.pdf

Is that a typo, or maybe the unit hasn't been delivered to them yet?

If ghellquist jumps the gun and takes it out for rental one day, I'm itching to be his sidekick/rigger, just to see the test results... 

I agree!
However, I don´t recall having sold one to them and the rental cost is the same as for the MM-3100, priced at 1/3 of the MM-4220...!
They probably have a mixer that we produced in a small quantity in 1995. Unfortunately, this mixer also had the name MM-4220.
It is characterized by large battery capacity, digital pots, all functions handled by a menu system, ... and a lot of weight.

By the way, I can announce that MM-4220 now also records 24 bits.
We have added a choice between 16 and 24 bits.
This is handled in the setup menu, available through a terminal software in a PC connected to the USB socket.
Note that in 24 bits mode filesize is doubled because we actually record 4 words (of 16 bits) per sample. Also note that we, as well as most other vendors, recommend the use of high-speed CF memory cards for this mode.

[kirk97132]

I'd like to give their two-channel transformer pre a run...


SMF-5
http://www.marenius.se/products/smf5.html

So it looks like that thing would only be $554 can that be true?  And it will run on two 9v akalines, DAMN!  I wonder what shipping is from Sweden?

[sunjan]

By the way, I can announce that MM-4220 now also records 24 bits.
We have added a choice between 16 and 24 bits.
This is handled in the setup menu, available through a terminal software in a PC connected to the USB socket.
Note that in 24 bits mode filesize is doubled because we actually record 4 words (of 16 bits) per sample. Also note that we, as well as most other vendors, recommend the use of high-speed CF memory cards for this mode.

I got a PM from Mr Marenius explaining that the 24bit firmware upgrade was added as a direct response to the feedback given here at TS.com.
Kudos to manufacturers who actually listen to the tapers!  I thought it was worth mentioning...

kirkd, if you PM marenius he will be able to give you a quote. Too bad the USD took a dive last week, otherwise it would have been even cheaper.

[marenius]

I'd like to give their two-channel transformer pre a run...


SMF-5
http://www.marenius.se/products/smf5.html

So it looks like that thing would only be $554 can that be true?  And it will run on two 9v akalines, DAMN!  I wonder what shipping is from Sweden?

We´ve actually upgraded the SMF-5 to mkII and the web site should now have correct info on this.
Noise level is reduced another 3 dB(!) and battery supply has been deleted. This mode would slightly reduce performance and we don´t want to compromize on that. Price is now $688 + VAT and freight cost.
Sweden to NYC by UPS is approx. $160 but can be lower for a slower shipping method.

[kirk97132]

Thanks for the feedback Mr. Marenius.  I do appreciate it.  It also looks like the new unit, the SMF-5 to mkII,  is only able to be powered by AC voltage now: "Power supply 2x15 V AC from PSU MASCOT/MARENIUS 8610 230 V (115 V for US version) AC @ 10 VA".  Unless I read it wrong that means it cannot be used in the field with DC power.  It was the quality and features(DC power) of the piece coupled with what looked to be a very reasonable price that had caught my eye.  And with a price that is dangerously close to $1000 US dollars now, I would opt for picking up a Lunatec V-3 for slightly more new, about the same used.   Especially with the features offered and the fact that it has digital output too.   Your preamp looks nice and I bet it sounds good too.  Don't get me wrong I am not shopping to buy one now just making some observations.  Thanks, Kirk

[WiFiJeff]

Good point! But AFAIK, it has only two analog inputs. Plenty of competition in that segment.

The Mini-r82 actually has 4 Analog inputs (MIC/LINE 1-2 and LINE 3-4)

I have had the Sonosax for a couple of years now, running just stereo input mostly through the line-in (3-4) inputs.  Since the world usually works this way, I note that at about the time this was posted I coincidentally begain running four track analog in.  It works really well, and if I ever learn how to mix efficiently (just at the hunt and peck and pray stage now) this  will be the killer app for the MiniR82.

Jeff

[marenius]

The new SMF-5mkII will run from mains power only.
Our main purpose with this amplifier has always been to offer the lowest noise-level available for high-end recordings.
Up until now it has been possible to use 2x 9V batteries for alternative powering.
However, in this mode there is an internal 30 kHz oscillator running to produce the 48V phantom power.
This affects the noise-level as well as total uptime, depending on mic power consumption.
Another drawback is that 9V power reduces the peak margin by almost 6 dB.
Since we do offer a very good alternative for portable use, the MM-4220 mixer, we feel confident with removing battery powering for the new SMF-5mkII.
MM-4220 is both a high-end amplifier + a recorder + a power pack.
We have also reduced noise-level by another 3 dB in SMF-5mkII by putting in the worlds (as far as we know) best amplifier, when it comes to noise-level, immediately after the Lundahl transformer. Note that this amplifier needs a lot of power, hence making it even less realistic to run from small batteries.
It is also quite expensive, as well as the Lundahls.

/Leif

[audBall]

^ Does the older model SMF-5 have Lundahls too?

[marenius]

Yes, the same Lundahls are used in the older SMF-5.

[Colin Liston]

Does the older model MM 4210  have Lundahls too?

[kirk97132]

The new SMF-5mkII will run from mains power only.
Our main purpose with this amplifier has always been to offer the lowest noise-level available for high-end recordings.
Up until now it has been possible to use 2x 9V batteries for alternative powering.
However, in this mode there is an internal 30 kHz oscillator running to produce the 48V phantom power.
This affects the noise-level as well as total uptime, depending on mic power consumption.
Another drawback is that 9V power reduces the peak margin by almost 6 dB.
Since we do offer a very good alternative for portable use, the MM-4220 mixer, we feel confident with removing battery powering for the new SMF-5mkII.
MM-4220 is both a high-end amplifier + a recorder + a power pack.
We have also reduced noise-level by another 3 dB in SMF-5mkII by putting in the worlds (as far as we know) best amplifier, when it comes to noise-level, immediately after the Lundahl transformer. Note that this amplifier needs a lot of power, hence making it even less realistic to run from small batteries.
It is also quite expensive, as well as the Lundahls.

/Leif

A lot of us use a 9v DVD style battery with between 5400Mah and 6000Mah capacity which would add a lot more life to the 9V source.  If there were to be that kind of capacity would  there still be a 6db loss of peak?  Would a 9V DC input jack be an option?  The Mixer looks great but is significantly more money at over twice the cost of the separate pre-amp.  Since someone like myself who already has a 4 track flash card recorder the mixer is not really an option that I would be looking for.  OK I quess I should ask do you have any of the older versions of the preamp still in your inventory?  Leif, thanks so much for answering the many questions posed and putting up with someone like myself, Kirk

[audBall]

Yes, the same Lundahls are used in the older SMF-5.

I should've asked this as well, but what about in the MM-4220?

Thanks for all your input here, Leif.

[marenius]

Neither MM-4210 nor MM-4220 have transformer inputs. This is because of the size and weight of the Lundahls.
We do not have anything left of the old SMF-5.
9V supply is a really limiting factor when it comes to ultra low-noise amp´s.
To achieve a wide dynamic range you will need both a very low noise floor and a very high peak level range.
SMF-5 internal amp´s run at +/-15 VDC. The power supply actually delivers 2 x 15 VAC, it is a plain transformer. To get +/-15 VDC from 9 VDC you will need a DC/DC switcher. Putting one next to an ultra low-noise amp while trying to obtain lowest noise level is not possible.
You can actually feed the SMF-5mkII from an external DC/DC converter. It should deliver +/-24 VDC @ 50-100 mA. Then you can choose whatever raw input voltage you like.
We may consider manufacturing a product like this. Would anyone buy that?
There is one problem left, then. 48 V phantom power is produced by multiplying the 30 VAC voltage by a diode ladder. Feeding +/-24 VDC to SMF-5mkII will not give +48 VDC, rather +20 VDC. Some microphones will run from this voltage, though.

Conclusion:
You can use an external DC/DC converter and achieve maximum noise performance but without correct phantom power.

MM-4220 bragging...
We delivered a new MM-4220 to the well-known recordist Peter Axelsson, earlier this week.
He mailed me the day after and wrote (in translation):
"All the stuff you have designed for the Swedish Broadcasting Corp. are top quality.
This thing has four inputs that I have never heard anything alike, and an A-D that is better than a Weiss.
There is a full transparence. It is a Nagra to the power of 2."

/Leif

[kirk97132]

Leif,  Once again you succinctly answer all the questions posed to you with an open mind and an eye towards the future.  I am a small fish here in a big big pond.  But, from what little I know and have learned I would suspect that not having +48V phantom would be a drawback and play against the unit.  There are some mics which require a certain lower voltage but I am not well versed enough to be able to cite which mic and what that voltage is, maybe ribbon or tube mics? Maybe someone who knows will chime in.  As for power the "norm" for a lot of guys running portable rigs is 6V, 9V & 12V.  They also seem to be the most supported voltages by aftermarket manufacturers.   Remember that I am a novice and you are the expert, but if I were to be looking at a portable design, I would try to base the external battery requirement around those voltages or multiples of them.  I keep saying external because of two reasons.  One it cuts down on space and two it lets the user choose the battery life that best fits their needs.    As for would anyone buy these, besides the live record people I would expect the ENG and film market to be interested in any high quality portable gear.  Thank you again for your gracious replies.  I would really like to run some of your gear one of these days...do you need a distributor on the West coast of the United States?  It's really great that you take time out of your day to stop by hear and let us pick your brain and field our questions, it's refreshing to see another person who makes equipment taking time to talk to the little guys.  Take care, Kirk

[marenius]

F.y.i. I have initiated a design work on SMF-5mkII with the goal to offer external 10-35 VDC power supply input while maintaining the ultra-low noise levels and 48V phantom supply.
In a week or two we will have the test results from this work and they will be posted here.

/Leif

[audBall]

Great news!  We look forward to hearing the results.

[ghellquist]

Just a small note on phantom power. Among the most picky mics are the Earthworks units. These generally require the full spec 10mA.

Gunnar

[kirk97132]

F.y.i. I have initiated a design work on SMF-5mkII with the goal to offer external 10-35 VDC power supply input while maintaining the ultra-low noise levels and 48V phantom supply.
In a week or two we will have the test results from this work and they will be posted here.

/Leif

Leif One of the most popular Li-Ion batteries that gets used is the 9V model so if it were to be in multiples of that it would be easily adaptable to anyone who already has the batteries by changing the cord to wire it in series.  So, 18V or 27V  which could add to the popularity.  of course you know better what voltages are needed.  Thank you for listening, Kirk

[BayTaynt3d]

The thing about 24-bit is I can get 16-bit dynamic range with A SH!T TON of headroom added on top for good measure.

[Nick's Picks]

18v DC no prob.  2x9v in series.  viola!

[marenius]

The thing about 24-bit is I can get 16-bit dynamic range with A SH!T TON of headroom added on top for good measure.

Well, right! That is, if you feed the A-D input with a signal that has a dynamic range much larger than 96 dB.
24 bits equals 144 dB. This is not yet experienced by man.

A well-designed audio system has the analog clipping level equal to all bits set in the A-D. This will offer maximum performance, with the analog signal being the limiting factor. Then, hope for the noise floor to sit more than 96 dB down and you may benefit from more than 16 bits.

/Leif

[marenius]

Finally!
The new SMF-5 mkIII is born and I think it will meet all requirements I´ve seen here so far.
Noise floor is maintained at the ultra-low level we managed to get in the mkII version.
Power supply is external 10 - 35 V DC, any polarity.
Phantom power is 48V and up to 20 mA can be delivered in total.
We have added a headphones output that will double as unbalanced output.
There is also a link switch for easier stereo gain control of both mic amp´s.
The mkIII model will be about the same cost as the mkII.
SMF-5 mkII will be obsolete from now.
In a few days the new datasheet will be available from our web site http://www.marenius.se.

/Leif

[audBall]

Thanks for the update! 

Nice to hear that the headphone can double as an unbalanced output. 

[flintstone]

The preamp and recorder look great! We have to convince some
audio retailer to stock Marenius products in North America!
Markertek seems to be asleep at the wheel regarding Marenius.

Flintstone

[marenius]

The MM-4220 now also offers time code sync.
We have changed file format to BWF, a pro subset of WAV. In the BWF header the time code data for the first sample is written.
This will show up in editors like Adobe Audition and alike.
The internal clock has been replaced by a highly accurate clock that will cause less than one frame error after 5 hours.
Jam sync can be done to any LTC time code signal. Only 25 fps is supported.
We have also improved the dynamic range a little bit further with even lower noise floor.

Leif Marenius

[sunjan]

Good to hear, Leif!

Any breakthough regarding US distribution yet?

I was wondering whether it would pay off for a small overseas brand like Marenius to participate at trade fairs like NAMM and similar. Any plans for that?

[marenius]

Sorry, but we have no present plans for a US distribution.
The insurance cost is a great problem.
However, if we would get a distributor that will start at a fairly good volume it can be justified.
I would suggest purchase of single units by web order and paying through PayPal.

/Leif

[sanaka]

Just thought this deserves bumping to point out that this unit looks the bomb for a 2ch pre. I'm not personally in the market for such a unit at the moment, but I find it amazing that Leif Marenius has tailored this latest version pretty much in direct respoonse to this thread, in astounding record time! Albeit from Sweden, this unit is available now!

Seems like a dream come true for those who've been waiting around for FiveFish or Aerco...

Peace,
Sanaka

Datasheet

You know your bag wants one....

[Javier Cinakowski]

it says it has RCA outputs?  I don't see them on the datasheet image.  Are they XLR/RCA combo jacks?  I didn't know they made those...

[GroundHog420]

This appears to be a 2-ch/2-tr mixer, no?
2 mics in > 2 lines out?
I had a 4-mic in > 2-ch out pre-amp built for me by Chris Church ago; but that is the only one of its' kind I had seen at the time.

[marenius]

Javier, you are right. There are no longer RCA outputs. The headphones socket doubles as line output as well as phones output.

SMF-5 is NOT a mixer, you can´t blend the two inputs. It´s a two-channel mic pre-amp.
For a 4-ch mic inputs to 2-ch line outputs please see the MM-4220 4-ch mixer.

Leif Marenius

[GroundHog420]

^^^^Sorry, I was using the term "mixer" loosely.
The pre-amp Chris built for me has four potentiometers, so I could essentially mix the inputs on the fly, as it was being recorded - that's kind of what I was referring to, I guess.
It actually isn't far off from the MM-4220 4-ch unit you referred me to - that's a sweet looking unit, indeed; I will have to look at that a bit more closely, now!!

[sanaka]

Mr. Marenius:

You may wish to post an informational thread about the SMF-5mkIII in the "Retail Space" forum here at TS. It doesn't seem that this preamp is well known here at TS, and as I posted above, the fact that you actually implemented design elements based on feedback here at TS is very special.

There is at least one preamp that was supposed to be sort of "taper community designed" that has now been "in development" for so long that it seems like it will never happen. I would think that people who have been waiting for it might be very happy about the SMF-5mkIII.

Just a thought.


Peace,
Sanaka

[ghellquist]

Just connected up the SMF-5 I have had around the house for a while. Got it from the local ebay (called tradera around here) for a decent price.

My unit is the older version, before the mk markings. It runs from either a transformer or 2 times 9V batteries. Both RCA and XLR output, no headphones though. It will spend time mostly for scratch recordings in my little home studio, nothing you will want to hear. ( On location I have paired down a full car of stuff to a 722 + a Schoeps MSTC64. At least for a while, time is better spent on other things, like playing the bassoon ) .

Nice sound, still need to take it out for a real spin though. Well built, quality components including Lundahl transformers in a sturdy case.

Anyone around Stockholm interested in a test run? Send me a PM and I am sure we can make something happen.

// Gunnar

[praxel]

I do not agree that the Marenius MM-4220 is a professional mixer/recorder.

Although the idea about the functionality and size of this unit is exellent, it has some serious flaws which has kept me busy trying to compensate for those at every recording.

The analog inputs do not meet professional demands.

1: They are very sensitive to overloading. If you have to adjust the input volume to 11 o´clock, you are likely to overload the input with following distrotion as result. You have to use an external pad to attenuate  the signal.

2: The phantom power is so low, that I have to use an external mic preamp. Only 5 mA for all four inputs. A schoeps CMC5 demands 4.5 mA alone.

3: The mic preamp has different frequency response, depending on if you run it in line position, or with 24 or 48dB amplification.

4: The inputs seems to work best with microphones with IC amplification. Discrete circuits or transformers around 200 Ohms sounds different.

All in all, the constructor of this mixer have left the old professional standards for some reason, which can cause a great deal of trouble if you want to integrate it in a professional studio environment.

I have been using this unit since 2009, and I am now looking for something else.

Peter

[praxel]

Yesterday I used the MM-4220 on a rehearsal with acousical instrument, sax, piano, double bass and drums. I used a pair of Sennheiser 212, dynamic mikes. Using the 48 dB amplification position, the inputs are clipping constantly, and the sax is distorted. Using the 24 dB position, the background noise becomes disturbing.

On a previous choire recording, I have managed to have the input work well with an external mic preamp from Line Audio , with a 40dB attenuation between the preamp and the mixer !!!!!!

It is as if the amplification levels are just taken out of the sleeve, rather than based on how most professional microphones works.

The inputs of this unit need reconstruction, not putting the head in the sand. I also hope that these problems will be solved in the unit Marenius is developing with Eric Spitzer Marlyn.

Peter

[Todd R]

Wow, bummer to hear of all the issues with the MM-4220.  I had the MM-4210 and thought it was a great piece of gear, with none of the problems you're mentioning.

The 5ma phantom is pretty silly, but the overloading makes me wonder if there is problem with your particular unit or how it is being used.

To help track things down, can you give more info on your recording chain?  Are you recording directly with the mm4220 using its internal CF recorder, or are you sending a signal to an external recorder?  If the latter, what is the recorder and are you sending it an analog signal from the 4220's XLRs or are you sending a digital spdif signal?

I'm also confused by your description that the inputs of the MM4220 are clipping.  First off, the 4220 is supposed to take a max input of +12dbu, which is a really hot signal.  Second, if it is truly clipping on the inputs, changing the gain shouldn't have any effect on whether it clips or not.

A preamp or mixer like the 4220 can clip on either its inputs (meaning you are feeding it too hot of a signal) or it can clip on its outputs (meaning the input signal level is fine, but the mixer cannot output that hot of a signal after applying whatever internal gain you are using).  If the clipping depends on the gain level, that sounds like output clipping to me, not input clipping.

Somewhat oddly, the 4220 is spec'd to accept a max signal of +12dbu (very hot for a mic, and pretty much impossible for a dynamic mic to clip -- you'd probably need sound levels in excess of 150db to accomplish this), and also is spec'd for a max output level of +12dbu.

It doesn't sound like you have an input clipping problem, but if you do, you definitely have a bad unit.  If you are experiencing output clipping, can you tell what you are using for trim gain and master gain?  You mention using the +48db base gain, but the 4220 adds onto that up to 12db of trim gain and up to 12db of master gain, for a maximum total of 72db of gain. 

For the ensemble you're recording, it wouldn't surprise me at all if you a clipping the outputs if you are using +48db of base gain, plus 6-12db of trim gain, plus 6-12db of master gain.  That could easily get above the max of +12dbu on the outputs, even using dynamic mics.  For dynamic mics using the +48db setting, I don't think you'd want more than 3-6db of gain on each of the trim and master knobs.  For condensers, I'd never set the base gain past the +24db setting.

I don't know if that helps or you tried all that, but I'd say that if you are having input clipping, you have a bum unit.  And I wouldn't think you'd have output clipping if you keep the trim and master gain knobs at the +3db setting, but easily could if you go beyond +6db on those knobs if you're using the +48db setting.

Maybe that helps, but the 5ma max for phantom is still a pisser.

[praxel]

Hi Todd,

you may have a point. It may be the converter that is clipping. I have addressed these issues with Marenius, and just got the explanation that this is the way it is built.

To begin with, I am recording on the CF memory.

On the recording yesterday, I used the 48dB position on the dynamic mike, with the first potentionmeter at approx -6 dB. The master knob was at 0 dB. No additional amplification was used.

A normal sax tone was heavily distorted. This makes me also doubt Marenius´ explanation that if I have to go down on the chanell knob, I am likely to overdrive the input. It seems more likely that it is the converter that is overloaded.

If I generate a sinus wave at 1kHz at - 15 dB, and run my Lynx card at +4dB, what should the mixers meters indicate? What is your suggestion? If the chanell knob and the master knob are at zero dB on the MM-4220 ?

I have also made a sweep, and run that on the three positions, and that shows that in the line position, there is a lack of low midrange, from 100 Hz . The sweep was up to 500 Hz. I will make one up to 1kHz.

The 24dB amlification measuers a little better, while the 48dB position is pretty straight.

I would really love it if this was due to a bad unit. Perhaps Marenius would let me try another one?

Peter Axelsson

[praxel]

Todd,

I think you are right that this is a bad unit. I applied a signal at digital zero from a -10 dB output, and turning the master knob down to -15dB, the meters showed -12 dB. I recorded the signal, and the waveform was almost a square wave. Then I did the same thing with the master knob on 0 and lowered the gain knob until the meters showed -12dB, and I had the same wave form.

From that, I think that the internal amplification is set much to high. That means that this unit is clipping on signals over 200 mV or something like that.
I don't even dare to think about how many bits are used, recording on those levels.

I will have Marenius look at it, and give you my oppinion after that.

But I wonder how this can occur. Is the amplification set mechanically, or through programming? If it is by programming, the values could change if the unit is completely out of power for a period of time. I don't know, this is only speculations.

Peter Axelsson

[sunjan]

Hej Peter,

Marenius himself used to follow this thread, and I know he cares about his reputation.
For the price you paid, surely some customer service comes with it.
Ask for a replacement unit, or at least a loaner so you can compare it with your (dud) unit.
Or if you live near his area, bring in your unit and have them test it on the spot, maybe they can demo and check the settings?

Let me get this straight: when you were running Mics>Line Audio preamp>(40dB attenuation)>MM-4220, I guess that was mic in? What about going line in instead? Or you didn't wan't line in because of different flavor?

/Jan

[praxel]

Hi Jan,

no, it was the line position.

I don't know how strong signal the Line Audio amplifier has, but without attenuation between the preamp and the MM4220, and 20 dB attenuation on the mic preamp, I had the mic preamps knob on 8, if it start on 7. I didn't match very well.

I visited Marenius today, and he measured the unit, and stated that it was ok. So I guess I have to go through my gear and calibrate my outputs before I say anything more about the mixer.

I hate to have this matching problems with this mixer. The a/d conversion is really decent, and he has chosen a good clock . I have no complains there. But the sensitivity of the inputs, the different frequency response at different amplification settings makes it different from anything I have ever recorded with.

This mixer has 122 dB signal to noise. I guess it would be possible to sacrifice some of that ratio, and get more headroom on the imputs.

Peter

[audBall]

Haven't seen any discussion here about this newer recorder from Marenius.


Marenius MM-4240 - 6 channel recorder (4-channel + stereo mix)

http://www.marenius.se/audiodesign/mm-4240.htm

Records at 24bit/96kHz
A/D dynamic range 107dB
External supply voltage 6-15 VDC
Size (H x W x D) 5.6 x 14 x 13.8 cm

Price: € 2,211

[jbell]

Looks cool!!  Any US distributors?

Haven't seen any discussion here about this newer recorder from Marenius.


Marenius MM-4240 - 6 channel recorder (4-channel + stereo mix)

http://www.marenius.se/audiodesign/mm-4240.htm

Records at 24bit/96kHz
A/D dynamic range 107dB
External supply voltage 6-15 VDC
Size (H x W x D) 5.6 x 14 x 13.8 cm

Price: € 2,211

[audBall]

Look cool!!  Any US distributors?

There aren't any listed on their site. Exchange rates aren't looking too bad these days.

[F.O.Bean]

Nice. Whats that in US currency? My PC is super slow right now or id look

[H₂O]

2200 Euros ~ $2400

[goodcooker]

Anyone know what kind of connector that is on the SPDIF out? Don't see a digital input...

Looks like an interesting unit but for the price (and shipping plus VAT from Sweden if no US distributors) I would likely go with something else that has a higher channel count.

[audBall]

I think it's a mini DIN-4 connector.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-DIN_connector

[jbell]

One went for $946 on ebay in January.  At that price I'd buy it. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231435761829