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Author Topic: The civilian taper's glass ceiling; the hierarchy of best setups  (Read 8837 times)

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Offline yltfan

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Re: The civilian taper's glass ceiling; the hierarchy of best setups
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2009, 12:24:16 AM »
Pretty much an amateur here, but I thought I'd add my 2 cents anyway.

I agree with Tonedeaf, but I might add some on-stage mics, maybe even in place of the room mics. I think it's pretty hard to get a real nice mix thru the board (even a separate mix), unless it's a pretty big venue. The other night, there was a special sbd mix set up for taping, and it sounded fine in the headphones at the time, but when I listened to it at home, it was pretty off, too heavy on the vocals and too little guitar. But mixed with my on-stage mics (which are heavy on the guitars) it will probably sound nice. An on-stage tape is going to be even more helpful if you're not able to get a separate mix from the board.
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Re: The civilian taper's glass ceiling; the hierarchy of best setups
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2009, 11:39:44 AM »
Pretty much an amateur here, but I thought I'd add my 2 cents anyway.

I agree with Tonedeaf, but I might add some on-stage mics, maybe even in place of the room mics. I think it's pretty hard to get a real nice mix thru the board (even a separate mix), unless it's a pretty big venue. The other night, there was a special sbd mix set up for taping, and it sounded fine in the headphones at the time, but when I listened to it at home, it was pretty off, too heavy on the vocals and too little guitar. But mixed with my on-stage mics (which are heavy on the guitars) it will probably sound nice. An on-stage tape is going to be even more helpful if you're not able to get a separate mix from the board.

Yeah, I thought about this too.  The reason I initially left the on-stage mics out of my 'glass cieling' equation was simply because I like a reasonable amount of the crowd in the mix.  On-stage mics do provide a little bit of the audience, but not much.  My thoughts are that stage mic'ing can oftentimes sound closer to a SBD (and the accompanying sterile argument) than a high quality AUD.  My favorite recordings are those that capture the energy of the band (obviously) but also when that energy is mirrored by the audience and also captured. 

So, in thinking about this further, for 'glass cieling' I might even consider substituting the SBD with the on-stage mics...but leave the audience mics...or since this is a 'glass ceiling' discussion, why not have all three and then mix them in post to taste!

easy jim

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Re: The civilian taper's glass ceiling; the hierarchy of best setups
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2009, 07:20:45 PM »
^ in smaller rooms, where not everything is going through the PA due to stage volume, stage + SBD (PA mix) is often an ideal 4 track approach. 

What is not sufficiently loud on stage will be emphasized in the PA mix, and the opposite will be true for the stage sound (it will lack precisely those things that the FOH engineer is adding to the PA mix).  If you're worried about not getting enough crowd noise w/ stage + SBD, use omnis or wide-cardioid mics on stage.

The best mic approach to take when 4 track recording should be conditioned by the size and acoustic properties of the venue, in a similar fashion to the considerations the FOH should take in setting his reinforcement mix.  (Of course, other set-up limitations may further limit your options, but those are more people/management considerations vs. audio theorizing).

I think it is generally not cool to ask a FOH engineer, who is likely being paid peanuts, to do extra work and set up a recording sub-mix for you unless you're already friends or you're tipping him/her somehow.  So, a fail-safe approach is to never expect to get more than a PA mix feed from the SBD (if that), and choose which mics to use and how/where you set them up accordingly.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 07:22:39 PM by easyjim »

Offline 6079

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Re: The civilian taper's glass ceiling; the hierarchy of best setups
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2009, 12:47:12 AM »
The wild card to me is the soundboard; specifically if you can get a special mix, which requires you to rely on the good will of the sound guy and his skill in mixing for recording.

Can anyone share about exploiting the subgroup channels to give yourself more options for post-mixing? Meaning, if there are six outputs, can you tell the sound guy to space out and mix the instruments over the six channels, for a sort of "smart" multi-tracking pull? Is this a tough process or something that can be done relatively easily during soundcheck?

Or if that's too much, just mix a stereo feed as was stated earlier. If you had some noise-canceling headphones and had your stage and aud. mics set up on the same recorder, it seems like you could even fine tune it in accordance with that, so you can tell him how you want it (politely, of course).

That's a nice scenario, because the other one I'm looking at is renting an Alesis HD24 for about $75 a day and then mixing it all together later. And I'm not so sure having the separate tracks would be much better than just getting a solid stereo mix from the board patch.

If you contact the sound guy ahead of time and lay this out politely, is it at least feasible? I understand it's more than is commonly asked.

Any details on that process above is what is still an important mystery to me. I tried to lay it out as best I understand it.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 12:49:34 AM by 6079 »
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Offline Patrick

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Re: The civilian taper's glass ceiling; the hierarchy of best setups
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2009, 02:40:49 AM »
Can anyone share about exploiting the subgroup channels to give yourself more options for post-mixing? Meaning, if there are six outputs, can you tell the sound guy to space out and mix the instruments over the six channels, for a sort of "smart" multi-tracking pull? Is this a tough process or something that can be done relatively easily during soundcheck?

this is a perfectly feasible way to get "fake multitracking" and it works very well.  However most engineers (that are worth their salt) will be making extensive use of their subgroups and output assignments for mixing the show, especially if they have to run multiple bands with saved settings on the same console in the same night.  Asking an engineer to do this much work just for a recording feed is a little bit much, and 9 times out of 10 you will get laughed at.  However, I've engineered a bunch of shows and given up 2 subgroups to make a feed for a camera, an internet stream, or a record feed and not cared much.  It's all about how you handle it, and also how complex the console is on that particular night.  Catch the engineer EARLY, when he is NOT busy and you may get more help than you expect. 


Quote
That's a nice scenario, because the other one I'm looking at is renting an Alesis HD24 for about $75 a day and then mixing it all together later. And I'm not so sure having the separate tracks would be much better than just getting a solid stereo mix from the board patch.

Do you have a DAW to mix all those tracks down with?  Even small-ish rock bands can take up a lot of channels, so if you don't have access to a Pro Tools, Logic, Samplitude-type workstation, I'd go with the stereo feed and hope for the best.
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Offline 6079

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Re: The civilian taper's glass ceiling; the hierarchy of best setups
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2009, 04:29:19 AM »
However, I've engineered a bunch of shows and given up 2 subgroups to make a feed for a camera, an internet stream, or a record feed and not cared much.  It's all about how you handle it, and also how complex the console is on that particular night.  Catch the engineer EARLY, when he is NOT busy and you may get more help than you expect. 

That's interesting. So, for example, if you wanted a stereo sub mix to suit your recording, could you explain to the sound guy you've got a pair of mics on center stage and one on each end, so you'd like the corresponding instruments in the mix similarly panned? Is that what the default move is anyway; just to pan them as they are on stage to give some separation?

I'm sure the example I listed above of putting on the headphones and cross-checking during sound check is pushing it a bit, but if the levels seem way off, it'd be a good way to give him a quick direction. Other than that, I guess you're subject to his taste in mixing, which hopefully would be familiar with the band and skilled.

One person I talked with suggested it wasn't too taboo to let a taper adjust the levels for their mix on the board their self during this period of time? I guess with isolated headphones.

Do you have a DAW to mix all those tracks down with?  Even small-ish rock bands can take up a lot of channels, so if you don't have access to a Pro Tools, Logic, Samplitude-type workstation, I'd go with the stereo feed and hope for the best.

Yes, mixing that many channels should be very daunting. The appropriate software and capable folks are available, though.
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Offline Patrick

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Re: The civilian taper's glass ceiling; the hierarchy of best setups
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2009, 12:31:04 PM »
That's interesting. So, for example, if you wanted a stereo sub mix to suit your recording, could you explain to the sound guy you've got a pair of mics on center stage and one on each end, so you'd like the corresponding instruments in the mix similarly panned? Is that what the default move is anyway; just to pan them as they are on stage to give some separation?

Personally I wouldn't have a problem accommodating someone that wanted to do this, but I'm sure there are some engineers that would take it very personally if you asked them to change their pans.  Not that it makes a huge deal of difference in the end (for smaller venues, at least) but the engineer is there to mix for the show and not necessarily for the record feed. 

Just to be clear, never run your recording microphones into the console under most circumstances, unless you have full cooperation of the engineer.  However, you (usually) can use the stage snake to bring your mic lines back to the FOH position to really simplify your setup.  Ask the engineer which two snake lines aren't being used, plug your mics into those lines on stage.  Have the engineer remove the corresponding XLR Male connectors out of the console, plug those into your preamp.  Makes your life simple.

Quote
One person I talked with suggested it wasn't too taboo to let a taper adjust the levels for their mix on the board their self during this period of time? I guess with isolated headphones.

The biggest issue:  you will be adjusting your levels as the show begins.  This will most likely be the most stressful part of an engineer's day as he is making some big changes to how the room sounds.  He'll need to have access to all the channels, masters, EQ's, comps/fx, etc during this time.  The taper will also be checking his levels during this time and if you try to stick your hand in to turn a knob on the console, the engineer will get pissy at you.  Just be respectful and you'll be fine.  Not all engineers are as bad as I've made them out to be, but always go in expecting the worse and have a backup plan (running 2 channel audience only...) if everything falls through. 
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Offline BayTaynt3d

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Re: The civilian taper's glass ceiling; the hierarchy of best setups
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2009, 10:42:46 PM »
Well, if you're talking a full-on approach, I'd say it's definitely taking directs of everything into an HD24 or some such, and I'd include at least one ambient stereo pair as well. You'll bug the FOH less (just patch the directs), and you'll have robust options in post. Then again, I always go lightweight, so I'm personally much more of a matrix type of guy myself.
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