Topic: Error Likely Designs - Dual Function Pause / Record Button

[stevetoney]

On the subject of designs you'd like to change...why have so many recorder designs gone to a dual function record/pause button?  It's a real PITA.  I don't know anyone that hasn't missed all or some of a show because they put their recorder in pause and thought they were in record. 

DESIGNERS PLEASE STOP DESIGNING RECORDERS THIS WAY!!!  We want a separate pause button please. 

In fact, I could do without the pause button altogether, though I suppose in my taping 'career' the pre-record buffer has saved me once or twice, but not really considering I spend the first part of a show tweeking levels anyway, so the first few seconds are kinda shot anyway.

[yates7592]

Yep it happened to me once with my R-09HR. Caught the last 10 minutes of a show after realising I'd stood there for 80 minutes in pause. I have to say the MiniR82 is great in this respect. As soon as you switch it on it is effectively in pause mode with the red light blinking. Then you know your first press of the record button will set you rolling.

[H₂O]

Which recorders have this issue?

[John Willett]

I don't have any problem with this.

Press record once and the recorder goes into stand-by mode so you can check the levels.

It also fills up the memory buffer if you have pre-record active, so you don't miss the start.

The red light flashes to warn you.

When you press record again, you start recording and the red light shines steady.

So it's really clear what you are doing.

No problem at all and a great feature - I wouldn't be without it.

[page]

I on the opposite side of the table as John and look at the Sound Devices model as the optimum; you hit record, and it records. The pre-roll buffer starts filling when you turn the machine on or stop recording.

[voltronic]

I'm so used to the way Sony does this (the tape deck style of arm transport > un-pause to release transport) that I've been caught off guard a couple times using my friend's Zoom recorders.  Maybe I'm old fashioned.  That and I like pretty blinking lights...

[fsulloway]

I've got a buddy who just started taping and my advice to him was no matter what put your eyes on the display and make sure its counting up.

[stevetoney]

To be clear, it's not like it's confusing and pre-record is a great feature.  I just wish the two functions weren't integrated onto the same button.  As far as I'm concerned, if you mess up one time out of a hundred (I'd guess that's about my rate of messing up) simply because of the button design, that's too many.  If the design was like Sound Devices, as Page mentions, the rate of mess up would go to zero.

[flipp]

To be clear, it's not like it's confusing and pre-record is a great feature. I just wish the two functions weren't integrated onto the same button.  As far as I'm concerned, if you mess up one time out of a hundred (I'd guess that's about my rate of messing up) simply because of the button design, that's too many.  If the design was like Sound Devices, as Page mentions, the rate of mess up would go to zero.

Which recorders have this issue?

[stevetoney]

Which recorders have this issue?

I can only speak to the recorders I currently own.  Of the four recorders I own, the Roland R-05, Tascam DR40, Tascam DR100mkii, and Sound Devices 744t, the three handhelds have this feature.  You push record once to put the recorder into pre-record/pause mode and push it a second time to start recording. 

I had a Sony M10 awhile back and I'm pretty sure that it operates like this as well.

[voltronic]

Which recorders have this issue?

I can only speak to the recorders I currently own.  Of the four recorders I own, the Roland R-05, Tascam DR40, Tascam DR100mkii, and Sound Devices 744t, the three handhelds have this feature.  You push record once to put the recorder into pre-record/pause mode and push it a second time to start recording. 

I had a Sony M10 awhile back and I'm pretty sure that it operates like this as well.

Yes, the M10 makes it really idiot proof.  Press Record, the Record button lights up red and the Pause button blinks at you.  Press the blinking Pause, and then you're recording.  While not as fast to start recording as Sound Devices, it makes it really obvious what you have to do without having to explain it in a manual.

[flipp]

Perhaps it is a matter of size that dictates the dual function pause/record button then. My primary recorders - Fostex FR2 & FR2-LE - both have individual pre-record/pause and record buttons. Been so long since I used the MT I can't recall if it even has a pause function. Other than the MT, I haven't used any of the hand held units available. If I do ever get a hand held, I'll make sure to check the pause and record to see if they both use a single button. Thanks for bringing this to my attention and I do agree it is poor design/implementation.

[stevetoney]

Yes, the M10 makes it really idiot proof.  Press Record, the Record button lights up red and the Pause button blinks at you.  Press the blinking Pause, and then you're recording.

My recorders aren't idiot proof.   

But the fact is that they all blink at you and pretty much everyone I know has done the pause error at least once.  In the bright light in the middle of the day you can't see the lights very well and when you're reaching down into your bag sometimes you hit the button once.  I forget and assume I'm recording after the first push.  This happens especially when I'm at a festival and I'm running around from stage to stage recording with multiple rigs, or if I start and stop my recorder ten or fifteen times a day and I'm not as attentive as when I only record one show at a venue in the dark when the blinking light is alot more obvious. 

[F.O.Bean]

Steve, I obviously own two m10s. Well, as with ANY gear, you just have to simply learn it, inside and out, and you will cut down on fukd up recordings. I simply put the m10 in record/pause mode, and the pre recording buffer starts. I've owned and run many different recorders over the years, and the newer recorders couldn't be ANY easier to use. The SD 7 series r probably the easiest to run. But running my m10, I simply look at my recorder for a few minutes and make SURE that its recording and the numbers are going UP. Simple as can be.

Sorry homie, but I don't see the downside to having one record/pause button on ur recorder. To me, once you learn your whole rig and recorder, you should just take the extra few seconds to make sure you're recording and the numbers are going UP. Obviously, everyone makes mistakes and fucks up, but if you have a legit system down, then you should rarely mess up a recording Hell, I've gotten so good at having a system down for starting a recording, I rarely fuck up a recording. But I have made EVERY mistake possible over the years, and IMO, that's the only true way to learn. If u fuck up enough recordings, then you're bound to learn from your mistakes lol

[tim in jersey]

As is the case in baseball when a pitcher is throwing a no-no I should probably keep my mouth clamped, but here goes...

Excluding a few DAT misloads, I've only ever missed a partial set or entire set due to my own user error twice in 15+ years of recording.

Both were with the 722. The first time was when I was running low-pro with the 722 way up front with mics stuffed in a hat and I was trying to figure out how to adjust levels on my buddy's R-09. Levels were looking beautiful on the 722's meters, but whilst trying to figure out the R-09 in the field and in the dark I got side-tracked and forgot to press record. Fortunately, I had the 722>R-09 deck as a back up. The fact that the level meter runs the entire time the 722 is powered on regardless of whether or not it is recording burned me.

The other time was @ The Queen in Wilmington, DE. I was the sole taper that night for RRE and I was clamped on the rail in the balcony with an extension pole (the sweetest spot in the room, just like it's sister in Philly). Weeknight show, light crowd, hardly anyone in the BALC, the vast bulk of folks are on the floor. Start shooting the shit with the one guy seated next to me and got distracted. Fiddled with the levels for a few minutes during the first song and finally realized I hadn't engaged record.

Other than that, nothing springs to mind. As far as taping goes, having a bit of OCD has served me well. LOL. 

[F.O.Bean]

Hahaha me too Tim. OCD has helped me too along the way. And I studied at Tripn While Taping University, so I learned the hard way But no matter what gear or recorder you run, you should know it inside and out, and just taking an extra second to make sure u r recording goes a long way

[stevetoney]

Not to belabor the point or come off as a stubborn old crotchety bastard, which I am, but a couple of responses and I'll STFU about this...

the newer recorders couldn't be ANY easier to use.

That’s beside the point.  I never said the recorders were difficult to use. 

You’re not thinking outside your own box.  You have the same 2 recorders that you’ve used for years now.  You’ve got your routine down solid, so you don't make this mistake. 

In my case, I use an SD predominantly and you hit record ONCE and you’re rolling.  My ‘system’ is down too and I'm used to hitting record one time.  Then I go to a festival and I have 2 or 3 rigs going.  I’m running between stages, so maybe I’m in a hurry.  Not thinking through it I hit record ONCE and I’m in PRE-RECORD.  It’s the middle of the day and the lights aren’t very visible and I assume I’m OK but I’m not.  Understand?

Think back to the very first time you used a handheld with pre-record.  Was it intuitive that you had to hit record twice?  No!  The button only says RECORD.  It doesn’t say PRE-RECORD.  You had to read the instructions or have someone tell you about the pre-record function or else you messed up your first recording.

Is this a big deal?  No, it's not. 

Sorry homie, but I don't see the downside to having one record/pause button on ur recorder.

I know most here are used to pushing twice, but that doesn’t mean it’s intuitive.  As you point out, it’s something that’s learned over time as you use your recorder.  What about when you record once a year and forget?  So, I completely disagree with your comment that there’s no downside to having an integrated record/pre-record function…the downside is that you mess up a recording now and then. 

My entire point in bringing this up is if pre-record were a separate function from record, as on the Sound Devices machines, this would never happen to anyone…EVER.  I’m stubborn, but I still think that would be a better design than having them on the same button, mainly because I'm an experienced taper and I just messed up two recordings at Summercamp exactly for the reason I mention above.

[John Willett]

I on the opposite side of the table as John and look at the Sound Devices model as the optimum; you hit record, and it records. The pre-roll buffer starts filling when you turn the machine on or stop recording.

The problem with this method is that you are always using power to record whenever the machine is switched on.

On the double-press method you are only using the extra power when you need to and are not draining the batteries unnecessarily.  This is more important on a small unit with limited battery life.

[Gutbucket]

The R44 control scheme is well implemented IMO.  Push record and it immediately goes into record with a positive solid red light indication.  That's simple, fast and reassuring when the immediate need is getting the recording going ASAP.  Hold down the pause button then push record and the machine goes into rec/pause mode with the red light flashing indicating the machine is paused.  The pre-record buffer begins to fill, the meters operate and levels can be set before pressing the record button again, or pause to begin recording. Clear, straight forward operation either way and super fast and simple one button press recording when necessary.   

When first encountering the R-44, if conditioned to machines which enter rec/pause when the record button is pressed, the obvious operator err immediately starts a recording, before learning to hold down the pause button first if the intent is to enter rec/pause.  Starting a recording accidentally is a better error than not starting one and missing a start cue.

I don't use Sony recorders regularly these days, but I think the Sonys may be different than some other machines in that once in rec/pause, you have to push the pause button to begin recording.  Is that correct?  You can't simply press the record button twice and be rolling?   If so then I think that scheme is not optimal.  I don't want to have to locate and press two different buttons to start recording.  Especially if in a rush or if the recorder is obscured in a pocket. 

On my recorders once they are in rec/pause mode I can push either the record button or the play button or the pause button (if there is one) to begin recording.  Pushing record or play to begin recording once the red light is flashing just seems more intuitive than pressing pause.  I'd think pushing record quickly twice is far quicker and less error prone than having to press two different buttons.

[2manyrocks]

I've been burned by this a couple of times and finally started watching the counter to be sure it's counting upward. 

That all being said, I'm just amazed at how well these little recorders work. 

[stevetoney]

That all being said, I'm just amazed at how well these little recorders work.

True.  All Good festival didn't happen this year, but there's a guy named Brad...that's all I know him as...that I've hung a little bit with the last several years who patches into me with a D8.  Every year I ask him why he sticks with the D8 when he can buy a new 24 bit flash recorder with a better feature set than a D8 for not much more than the price of a box of DAT tapes.  I can't understand why the DAT crew sticks it out, but good for them.