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Author Topic: Sony PCM-D100 Part2  (Read 28286 times)

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Offline adrjork

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Re: Sony PCM-D100 Part2
« Reply #180 on: June 12, 2017, 11:38:29 AM »
All your answers help me a lot, so thanks.
Anyway I haven't take a decision yet.
My fight is between D100 vs MixPre3+AT4053b (please, let me know if you consider too much off-topic: is so I'll open a new thread).

I have 4 questions about this comparison:

Let's see the specs:
- Sony D100 has a noise-floor of -127dBu (even if only at rec-level 5) and a S/N ratio of 100dB (that's impressive);
- MixPre3 has a noise-floor of -130dBu (great), but AT4053b has a S/N ratio of only 78dB (and it has its own self-noise of 16dB).

So here the first 2 questions:

1. When does the difference between S/N 100dB (D100) vs 78dB (AT) become crucial? (Is it a secondary detail, or it is really important in "little" sounds recordings?)

2. Considering that I'd use the MixPre3 with an AT4053b (not with a super-silent-schoeps! but a mic with its own 16dB noise-floor), so the question: is the difference between the two noise-floor levels (D100 vs MixPre3+AT4053b) so crucial for "tiny" sounds recording?

Going further, D100 is stereo, while AT is not, obviously. I'm interested into obtaining a stereo image only outdoor for field recordings. Remaining in the price range of the AT4053b, the only "cheap" options that fit a blimp are:
- M/S option: AT4053b + AKG CK94 (a figure-8 with a self-noise of 22dB ☹ and a S/N ratio of only 72);
- X/Y single mic option: BP4025 stereo mic (self-noise 14dB, S/N ratio 80dB);
or...
- again Sony D100.
On the sheet it seems that the BP4025 option beats the AT4053b+CK94, but again BP4025 has its own noise-floor that is added to the noise-floor of the MixPre3.

So here the last 2 questions:

3. Are you sure that the sum of BP4025+MixPre3 noise-floors beats the noise floor of the Sony D100?

4. If yes, is this a "day vs night" difference for field recording?

I know that many of my questions are silly for an expert, but your answers are fundamentals for me.
So thanks a lot.

Offline dogmusic

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Re: Sony PCM-D100 Part2
« Reply #181 on: June 12, 2017, 02:39:29 PM »
All your answers help me a lot, so thanks.
Anyway I haven't take a decision yet.
My fight is between D100 vs MixPre3+AT4053b (please, let me know if you consider too much off-topic: is so I'll open a new thread).

I have 4 questions about this comparison:

Let's see the specs:
- Sony D100 has a noise-floor of -127dBu (even if only at rec-level 5) and a S/N ratio of 100dB (that's impressive);
- MixPre3 has a noise-floor of -130dBu (great), but AT4053b has a S/N ratio of only 78dB (and it has its own self-noise of 16dB).

So here the first 2 questions:

1. When does the difference between S/N 100dB (D100) vs 78dB (AT) become crucial? (Is it a secondary detail, or it is really important in "little" sounds recordings?)

2. Considering that I'd use the MixPre3 with an AT4053b (not with a super-silent-schoeps! but a mic with its own 16dB noise-floor), so the question: is the difference between the two noise-floor levels (D100 vs MixPre3+AT4053b) so crucial for "tiny" sounds recording?

Going further, D100 is stereo, while AT is not, obviously. I'm interested into obtaining a stereo image only outdoor for field recordings. Remaining in the price range of the AT4053b, the only "cheap" options that fit a blimp are:
- M/S option: AT4053b + AKG CK94 (a figure-8 with a self-noise of 22dB ☹ and a S/N ratio of only 72);
- X/Y single mic option: BP4025 stereo mic (self-noise 14dB, S/N ratio 80dB);
or...
- again Sony D100.
On the sheet it seems that the BP4025 option beats the AT4053b+CK94, but again BP4025 has its own noise-floor that is added to the noise-floor of the MixPre3.

So here the last 2 questions:

3. Are you sure that the sum of BP4025+MixPre3 noise-floors beats the noise floor of the Sony D100?

4. If yes, is this a "day vs night" difference for field recording?

I know that many of my questions are silly for an expert, but your answers are fundamentals for me.
So thanks a lot.

The BP4025+MixPre3 will give you excellent recordings, as will the D100. I don't think the difference will be day vs night.

This all may come down to convenience. You can attach the D100 to a pistol grip and get zero handling noise in an all-in-one recorder. The BP4025 will need a holder too and you've also got the mic cable and mixpre3 to carry.

But if you ever want to use an external condenser mic with the D100, as has been noted, you need external phantom with XLR inputs.
"The ear is much more than a mere appendage on the side of the head." - Catherine Parker Anthony, Structure and Function of the Human Body (1972)

"That's metaphysically absurd, man! How can I know what you hear?" - Firesign Theatre

Offline adrjork

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Re: Sony PCM-D100 Part2
« Reply #182 on: June 12, 2017, 06:36:48 PM »
The BP4025+MixPre3 will give you excellent recordings, as will the D100. I don't think the difference will be day vs night.
Guys, I'm very confused and undecided: someone says that the two systems (BP4025+MixPre3 vs D100-only) give comparable quality results; but someone else says that the quality result of a $$$$ system can't be comparable with the quality result of a $$$ system.
I honestly can only suppose that must be a difference between the two systems, but the point is: how big is this difference? It seems impssible to give an answer to this question: what is big for a guy, is little for another guy. This problem could be solved - you'd say - simply trying by myself the two systems renting them, but unfortunately where I live isn't as simple. So I have to trust someone's experience, someone that had actually used both the two systems for pro recordings.
So my question: is there here any pro field recordist that has actually used both D100-alone and also a SoundDevices recorder + a mic like the BP4025 or similar? If yes, please tell me if the difference between this two options is noticeable (like "prosumer vs pro"), or if insted the difference is barely noticeable by the most demanding audiophile maniac.
Guys, I know I'm annoying, firgive me, but I have to finally choose my audio gear, and obviously I'm trying to optimize spending - of course - but the priority is having a pro gear, not a prosumer one. So if someone has used both and says they give similar results, I'll go for the cheaper solution (god save my money). Instead if there is a noticeable difference, I'll go for the $$$$ option (god save my soul... but I could trade it for a good piece of gear >:D

Offline adrianb

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Re: Sony PCM-D100 Part2
« Reply #183 on: June 13, 2017, 03:10:06 AM »
adrjork - the following link might help with your decision:

http://www.creativefieldrecording.com/2017/01/18/sony-pcm-d100-review-one-year-later/

I currently own two D100's, which I use predominantly for recording quieter scenes, and I am always amazed at the quality of the recordings compared with other portable recorders I have used. I have recently acquired a Sony XLR1 to provide phantom power, and am considering the BP4029 and BP4025, so might be able to provide a comparison soon. I also frequently think about a Sound Devices unit. However, we are talking about considerable money for what is basically a hobby, and when I listen to the recordings I have made using the D100 I never think to myself this could be better.

Given the price difference I would just go for the Sony D100, at least initially. I picked up my second unit secondhand for £315 ($400). You could look to 'upgrade' later, and then sell on what you don't need/want.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 03:23:25 AM by adrianb »

Offline mitchellm

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Re: Sony PCM-D100 Part2
« Reply #184 on: June 13, 2017, 03:14:32 AM »
adrjork - the following link might help with your decision:

http://www.creativefieldrecording.com/2017/01/18/sony-pcm-d100-review-one-year-later/

That's a great article. Thanks for sharing.

Offline mitchellm

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Re: Sony PCM-D100 Part2
« Reply #185 on: June 13, 2017, 03:23:55 AM »
So my question: is there here any pro field recordist that has actually used both D100-alone and also a SoundDevices recorder + a mic like the BP4025 or similar? If yes, please tell me if the difference between this two options is noticeable (like "prosumer vs pro"), or if insted the difference is barely noticeable by the most demanding audiophile maniac.

I don't know how to answer you question, but the question itself is clear enough. Do you already have these external mics? Or would you be buying them? That changes the thinking a lot.

I am currently using the Audio Technica BP4025 X/Y Stereo Field Recording Microphone. It needs phantom power. This means from a practical perspective that I would not use it with the D100. But the combo of BP4025 with MixPre-3 is gorgeous.

Another factor is what will you be recording? Only "small sounds" or other things? The MixPre is much more flexible for my purposes: I can also use it to record screencasts and audio lectures directly to my computer. The D100 can not do that. But this is a factor that might be irrelevant to you.

How small or mobile do you need the device? The MixPre-3 with a mic will be a relatively small package that I can carry around easily enough. But the D100 on it's own is certainly smaller and less cumbersome.

Personally I'm glad I have both devices. I've gotten a few great years of usage out of the D100, and I will continue to use it when a small device is needed. However you need to weigh into the equation that if you are using the internal mics then you should plan on always using a furry windscreen (one comes with it).

I'm sorry I can't be more helpful. The bottom line: no matter which device you buy I think you'll be happy with your purchase. But the MixPre-3 works nicely with any external mic. The D100 either won't work with some mics, or becomes a more cumbersome setup. So make sure the external mic you choose (if you use one at all) works simply and well with the D100.

Offline mnm207

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Re: Sony PCM-D100 Part2
« Reply #186 on: August 25, 2017, 11:01:22 AM »
Mitchell, could expand quickly on how the internal Sony d100 mics compare to your AT BP4025 in terms of stereo separation, clarity and wind susceptibility?

I'm thinking of getting an external stereo mic to run through my MixPre3 to use while traveling, replacing my d100 for that use. The 4025 is one mic I've been looking at.

Thanks!

Offline adrjork

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Re: Sony PCM-D100 Part2
« Reply #187 on: August 25, 2017, 11:27:52 AM »
But the combo of BP4025 with MixPre-3 is gorgeous.
I purchased the combo MixPre6 + BP4025. But perhaps I did my first BIG mistake: BP4025 ends with 2x XLR (obviously, since it's stereo), so I connected both XLRs to channels 1-2 of the MixPre6, and then I gave phantom power to BOTH the channels... After one hour long test, I discovered that giving phantom power to a single channel (left) was enough to power both the channels of the stereo mic (and it's logical: the channels are 2, but the mic is one, so it needs only one phantom!)
Now, I'm afraid of having damaged the mic. My question is: do you think I could have damaged the mic having given DUAL phantom power for such a long time?
Thanks for your help.

Offline dogmusic

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Re: Sony PCM-D100 Part2
« Reply #188 on: August 25, 2017, 01:18:58 PM »
But the combo of BP4025 with MixPre-3 is gorgeous.
I purchased the combo MixPre6 + BP4025. But perhaps I did my first BIG mistake: BP4025 ends with 2x XLR (obviously, since it's stereo), so I connected both XLRs to channels 1-2 of the MixPre6, and then I gave phantom power to BOTH the channels... After one hour long test, I discovered that giving phantom power to a single channel (left) was enough to power both the channels of the stereo mic (and it's logical: the channels are 2, but the mic is one, so it needs only one phantom!)
Now, I'm afraid of having damaged the mic. My question is: do you think I could have damaged the mic having given DUAL phantom power for such a long time?
Thanks for your help.

Whenever I've used my BP4025, I've always used phantom power on both channels. I think each capsule requires phantom power to operate at full potential.
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Offline adrjork

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Re: Sony PCM-D100 Part2
« Reply #189 on: August 25, 2017, 02:11:50 PM »
Whenever I've used my BP4025, I've always used phantom power on both channels. I think each capsule requires phantom power to operate at full potential.
Thanks for your reply! Just a detail: your mixer/recorder provided individually switchable phantom power per channel, or a global phantom power for all the channels?

Thanks

Offline dogmusic

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Re: Sony PCM-D100 Part2
« Reply #190 on: August 25, 2017, 05:27:02 PM »
Whenever I've used my BP4025, I've always used phantom power on both channels. I think each capsule requires phantom power to operate at full potential.
Thanks for your reply! Just a detail: your mixer/recorder provided individually switchable phantom power per channel, or a global phantom power for all the channels?

Thanks

I've used the BP4025 with a TASCAM DR-680 recorder and also with a SOUND DEVICES USBPre2 preamp (connected digitally to a SONY D-50 recorder). The 680 has a single switch to turn on phantom power for my inputs CH's 1&2 together. But the USBPre2 has a separate dip-switch for each channel to turn on phantom power.
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Offline dallman

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Re: Sony PCM-D100 Part2
« Reply #191 on: August 25, 2017, 05:43:18 PM »
But the combo of BP4025 with MixPre-3 is gorgeous.
I purchased the combo MixPre6 + BP4025. But perhaps I did my first BIG mistake: BP4025 ends with 2x XLR (obviously, since it's stereo), so I connected both XLRs to channels 1-2 of the MixPre6, and then I gave phantom power to BOTH the channels... After one hour long test, I discovered that giving phantom power to a single channel (left) was enough to power both the channels of the stereo mic (and it's logical: the channels are 2, but the mic is one, so it needs only one phantom!)
Now, I'm afraid of having damaged the mic. My question is: do you think I could have damaged the mic having given DUAL phantom power for such a long time?
Thanks for your help.
Phantom power to both channels is correct. 2 capsules with Phantom Power going to each capsule to power it. I have never seem a mic that would require phantom power to just one channel. I am surprised both capsules worked. Many mics can run on p24, but most want the full p48 or close to it to run optimally. If there were a mic that had 2 XLR's and only required Phantom power to one capsule, it'd have to make a huge point as people would be frying them left and right (pun intended).  :bigsmile:
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Offline adrjork

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Re: Sony PCM-D100 Part2
« Reply #192 on: August 25, 2017, 06:13:00 PM »
If there were a mic that had 2 XLR's and only required Phantom power to one capsule, it'd have to make a huge point as people would be frying them left and right (pun intended).  :bigsmile:
:) Well... Audio-Technica support surprisingly hadn't an answer: in brief they replied "That's a good question!" and ended up saying "well, if the mic works with a single 48v, then we'd recommend to use a single phantom, so you can save the batteries of your recorder!"
Obviously this didn't answer my question "had I fried my mic?" So I asked to an audio-engineer (that's a friend) that replied to me saying that in his opinion a condenser mic should eat only the needed power (if the volts are 48) in the sense that if a single phantom is enough, the mic should simply ingore the second phantom.
But obviously a little doubt remained in my head...
But the USBPre2 has a separate dip-switch for each channel to turn on phantom power.
Well, dogmusic, if you powered the BP4025 with phantom on each channel separately, then this should prove that the mic is not damaged by the two phantoms. So, great to hear that! Thanks a lot!

Offline dogmusic

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Re: Sony PCM-D100 Part2
« Reply #193 on: August 25, 2017, 06:55:53 PM »

But the USBPre2 has a separate dip-switch for each channel to turn on phantom power.
Well, dogmusic, if you powered the BP4025 with phantom on each channel separately, then this should prove that the mic is not damaged by the two phantoms. So, great to hear that! Thanks a lot!

Remember: the BP4025 is actually two microphones housed in one body.
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Offline mitchellm

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Re: Sony PCM-D100 Part2
« Reply #194 on: August 26, 2017, 08:53:06 AM »
Mitchell, could expand quickly on how the internal Sony d100 mics compare to your AT BP4025 in terms of stereo separation, clarity and wind susceptibility?

I'm thinking of getting an external stereo mic to run through my MixPre3 to use while traveling, replacing my d100 for that use. The 4025 is one mic I've been looking at.

Thanks!

I'm traveling right now so I'm answering based on memory. The BP4025s are less "wind susceptible" than the D100s. However, even with the BP4025 I use a very nice furry windscreen (the WindTech MM-26 Mic Muff) that works fantastically well even in pretty darn windy conditions. You still get the sound of the wind, but not wind plosives. You might want to also consider the Audio-Technica AT8022. It's a bit cheaper and also a very good mic. It also depends on what you're recording. I record enough live music, music played in marches, and ambient sounds where I need to hold the mic (or place it very carefully). I wouldn't want to do there same with the recorder itself: too easy to drop, etc. 

I love the BP4025 with MixPre-3 combo. Works great for me. If I remember correctly the BP4025 comes with a very long cable. So you may want to purchase a shorter cable for traveling reasons. (I already had a shorter cable available.)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 08:55:37 AM by mitchellm »

 

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