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Author Topic: SECRET soundboard patch...  (Read 7775 times)

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Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: SECRET soundboard patch...
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2015, 11:17:48 PM »
Unless there are only two speakers on sticks,

Yes - exactly 2 - mono mix
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Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: SECRET soundboard patch...
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2015, 11:20:34 PM »
But, even better is to be friendly with your resident sound engineer

I am the resident sound engineer.

This was a restaurant/tavern...the band did their own sound.
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Offline PH

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Re: SECRET soundboard patch...
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2015, 12:45:53 AM »
Life in Rewind,
I think it's great you found a way to grab a feed that sounded great, that's why we all tape.

Until your last replies, you didn't mention any of the specifics of the room, the band, the engineer, the PA, or any details about the situation... so it's only natural for others to point out that even though all of the above conditions were exactly as you explained them in your situation, that it would not be advised for other tapers to try this. Not to mention, unless a taper understands exactly what they are doing/patching....it could be problematic for the sound/band. Also, being the "senior taper" as you described yourself, you should have a set of splitters for your bag so that both you and the "newbie taper" could get a patch. Sounds like the newbie beat you to the board. jk.

Again, glad you made a great tape but I think it's important to point out for others wanting to try this, that it is in fact, a less than ideal solution and there are at least 3 other methods (mentioned here already) that would work a lot better. YMMV
Cheers, Phil
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 01:20:31 AM by PH »

Offline jbosco

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Re: SECRET soundboard patch...
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2015, 07:56:33 AM »
Just remember that the signal you get probably won't be the same as a soundboard out, generally speaking the signal will have passed through lots of processing for the house sound, most notably the audio will have gone through a house eq which will probably alter the sound in a way you won't want, it will probably also be compressed in some fashion and will most likely have gone through a crossover stage as well, so the mix could be missing the low end.

It's the exact same signal that the soundboard sends to the speakers...i.e. "the house sound"


And that's the problem, even if there is no compressor or crossover in the signal chain, I'm sure it's been equalized to make it sound good in the room, have you ever heard what a PA sounds like in a room when the system eq is "flat", generally speaking it won't sound very good, this will alter the sound in a way that probably won't sound good as opposed to taking the line out from the board which bypasses all the system processing.  Trust me it's what I did for a living for over 20 years.

This was in restaurant - I was sitting right in front of the band...there was no "lots of processing" - nor was there a "house eq" - and further more - there is no "crossover" in play...

Excuse me for trying to explain signal chains and why this might not be the ideal taping method, my bad, please except my apologies.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 07:58:26 AM by jbosco »
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Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: SECRET soundboard patch...
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2015, 08:33:46 AM »
Just remember that the signal you get probably won't be the same as a soundboard out, generally speaking the signal will have passed through lots of processing for the house sound, most notably the audio will have gone through a house eq which will probably alter the sound in a way you won't want, it will probably also be compressed in some fashion and will most likely have gone through a crossover stage as well, so the mix could be missing the low end.

It's the exact same signal that the soundboard sends to the speakers...i.e. "the house sound"


And that's the problem, even if there is no compressor or crossover in the signal chain, I'm sure it's been equalized to make it sound good in the room, have you ever heard what a PA sounds like in a room when the system eq is "flat", generally speaking it won't sound very good, this will alter the sound in a way that probably won't sound good as opposed to taking the line out from the board which bypasses all the system processing.  Trust me it's what I did for a living for over 20 years.

This was in restaurant - I was sitting right in front of the band...there was no "lots of processing" - nor was there a "house eq" - and further more - there is no "crossover" in play...

Excuse me for trying to explain signal chains and why this might not be the ideal taping method, my bad, please except my apologies.

It was never presented as an "ideal taping method" - it was presented as a backup plan for less than optimal conditions. (i.e. - other guy using board patch)

I assumed everybody knew what a powered speaker was...its a full range speaker with an amplifier built into it...like the previously mentioned EONs or very common Mackie 450.

If you're using it for the house mix - you send it the house mix. (just an XLR between the mixer and speaker)
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Offline jbosco

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Re: SECRET soundboard patch...
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2015, 09:08:32 AM »
Just remember that the signal you get probably won't be the same as a soundboard out, generally speaking the signal will have passed through lots of processing for the house sound, most notably the audio will have gone through a house eq which will probably alter the sound in a way you won't want, it will probably also be compressed in some fashion and will most likely have gone through a crossover stage as well, so the mix could be missing the low end.

It's the exact same signal that the soundboard sends to the speakers...i.e. "the house sound"


And that's the problem, even if there is no compressor or crossover in the signal chain, I'm sure it's been equalized to make it sound good in the room, have you ever heard what a PA sounds like in a room when the system eq is "flat", generally speaking it won't sound very good, this will alter the sound in a way that probably won't sound good as opposed to taking the line out from the board which bypasses all the system processing.  Trust me it's what I did for a living for over 20 years.

This was in restaurant - I was sitting right in front of the band...there was no "lots of processing" - nor was there a "house eq" - and further more - there is no "crossover" in play...

Excuse me for trying to explain signal chains and why this might not be the ideal taping method, my bad, please except my apologies.

It was never presented as an "ideal taping method" - it was presented as a backup plan for less than optimal conditions. (i.e. - other guy using board patch)

I assumed everybody knew what a powered speaker was...its a full range speaker with an amplifier built into it...like the previously mentioned EONs or very common Mackie 450.

If you're using it for the house mix - you send it the house mix. (just an XLR between the mixer and speaker)

Most of the other engineers I work with would not do it that way, we would send it to an EQ at a bare minimum first, probably a compressor if for nothing else speaker protection at least, and in the case where there are subs, a crossover to split the signal to feed the bass bins.  All this could just be done with a simple and cheap DBX DriveRack, or separate pieces, but hey, we could be doing it wrong.

I'm glad this worked out for you, happy taping!
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Offline kindms

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Re: SECRET soundboard patch...
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2015, 11:07:57 AM »
At vibes last year in the VIP tent they have the daisy chain setup. I looked at it for a while thinking it might be possible. Not really necessary there as they generally supply a board feed.
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Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: SECRET soundboard patch...
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2015, 11:17:55 AM »
Sorry for the above snarks guys - I should have spelled it out a little better in my first post. :-X
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Offline jefflester

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Re: SECRET soundboard patch...
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2015, 04:26:25 PM »
Someone else incorrectly mentioned that only "powered" systems will pass a signal. Any sort of monitor with a thru pass feature will work, it will just pass what it was sent down the line.
I've done it off a non-powered floor wedge. Of course in this case the signal is very hot, since it's amplified speaker level. I did it at a low-key (pizza parlor) Steve Wynn show where I was already running mics, but I had my DAT deck (TCD-D100) as a spare so I decided what the hell I'd run the 1/4" speaker out from the wedge into my deck. I can't remember if I had an attenuator or not and in hindsight if I didn't I could have blown the input stage of the deck. As it turned out, it was definitely distorted, but it was vocals only and not so bad that I couldn't mix it together with the mics for a nice effect. This was ~5 years ago and I still haven't gotten around to finishing that file set and uploading to LMA.
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Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: SECRET soundboard patch...
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2015, 09:19:38 PM »
Someone else incorrectly mentioned that only "powered" systems will pass a signal. Any sort of monitor with a thru pass feature will work, it will just pass what it was sent down the line.
I've done it off a non-powered floor wedge. Of course in this case the signal is very hot, since it's amplified speaker level. I did it at a low-key (pizza parlor) Steve Wynn show where I was already running mics, but I had my DAT deck (TCD-D100) as a spare so I decided what the hell I'd run the 1/4" speaker out from the wedge into my deck. I can't remember if I had an attenuator or not and in hindsight if I didn't I could have blown the input stage of the deck. As it turned out, it was definitely distorted, but it was vocals only and not so bad that I couldn't mix it together with the mics for a nice effect. This was ~5 years ago and I still haven't gotten around to finishing that file set and uploading to LMA.

You needed one of these!

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"Allows direct connection to speaker outputs with up to 3,000 Watts"



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stevetoney

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Re: SECRET soundboard patch...
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2015, 07:44:10 AM »
Can someone clarify something for me? 

Is this thread promoting secretly tapping into venue's sound systems to get mono SBD recordings without a band/venue's knowledge? 

If so, that's IMHO shameful.  There was a bootlegger from the 70's that explained in an article that he used this same basic technique secretly for years on large venue speakers at Led Zep concerts and such.  He made a living selling bootlegs out of Italy for decades until the internet happened and stopped most bootlegging.

If not, then the thread seems mis-titled.

(PS:  I'm sorry, I really don't want to be THAT guy, but then again is that what taperssection is about?  If we don't self police this type of discussion to make sure it's clear that it's above board then what are we here for?)

« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 08:19:25 AM by tonedeaf »

Offline bryonsos

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Re: SECRET soundboard patch...
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2015, 08:40:41 AM »
Read the thread. 'SECRET' is tongue in cheek, facetious, or generally in jest. The point of 'secret' was that many folks here don't know of these outputs, and that it may be worth seeing if your local FOH speaker jockey would let you use them. Most places that use these setups won't be pumping much more than vocals and some guitars through them, so a proper tape would be this patch + stage lip or aud matrix. As a former (recovering) sound engineer, I can promise you that if someone plugged into them without permission: a) it will be noticed and b) when the offending taper has been found badly beaten in the dumpster, that c) nobody will know how he got there and d) someone will eventually get around to calling an ambulance. Unless there's cake. Then it will definitely be after the cake.


Can someone clarify something for me? 

Is this thread promoting secretly tapping into venue's sound systems to get mono SBD recordings? 

If so, that's IMHO shameful.  There was a bootlegger from the 70's that explained in an article that he used this same basic technique secretly for years on large venue speakers at Led Zep concerts and such.  He made a living selling bootlegs out of Italy for decades until the internet happened and stopped most bootlegging.

If not, then the thread seems mis-titled.
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Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: SECRET soundboard patch...
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2015, 09:23:36 AM »
"Secret" - -definitely a cynical, tongue-in-cheek take - like - "I've taped hundreds of shows with bands using speaker-on-a-stick PAs why the fuck didn't I think of this sooner"

Just pointing out a something that seems to be overlooked by tapers - and could be VERY useful.

No stealth implications - although - I see how "secret" could be misconstrued.

My taping world consists of local bar bands...

Almost all of these bands use speaker on a stick PAs...no engineers, no eqs - if you see an eq, its probably for the monitors.

And, in most cases I'm friends or at least acquainted with the musicians.

For the record - I am the Production Manager and Sound Engineer for The Pennsylvania Opry.

http://www.paopry.com/

We have a 250 seat theatre - running the Behringer X32 feeding a pair of corner mounted Mackie 450s and a set of Community Subs. The Mackies run full range - we use no eqs for the house - or monitors (6 mixes) All effects are from the X32.

Fortunately, we have the speakers mounted about 15 feet above the floor - keeps those pesky bluehair stealthers from climbing up there with their XLRs!
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 09:37:58 AM by Life In Rewind »
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: SECRET soundboard patch...
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2015, 04:19:48 PM »
Change the word "SECRET" to "newly discovered," "overlooked" or something similar.  It looks like a pretty useful idea whatever you want to call it. 

Offline dakapc

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Re: SECRET soundboard patch...
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2015, 09:17:01 PM »

Then it dawned on me - they were using powered speakers - that have an output (for chaining pairs together)...grabbed an XLR cable...POW! - soundboard feed right at my table.


At the club I record at they own 4 passive Yamaha s215v's that I always have access to and since the sound guy is almost always on the run or running behind I need a backup, Although it may not be an ideal way to go, I'd still like to know if I can use the parallel outs on the back of these into a portable recorder. they have XLR and 2- 1/4" outs. I've never tried it out of fear of zapping my mic. but if it's possible I can always use it as a backup source when the SB connection is unavailable or produces bad results from accidental changes made by the sound guy.

 

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