Topic: Zoom F8 for Classical recording

[Ozpeter]

Listening at fairly damaging levels through cans, I'm hearing what I'd interpret as most likely piano stool noises (eg at 2'38"), second likely pedal action noises, third likely, fingernail noises.  Very subtle noises faithfully recorded by the F8!  Right at the start I'm hearing what seems to be a noise in the audience, like a latecomer settling down in his seat.  Then there's a very low frequency rumble at about nine seconds in which sounds like wind noise from a/c or a footfall from someone walking past the mic stand.

[voltronic]

To the OP:

You stated this recording only was set at 15 dB of gain, and the sound is extremely clean and revealing.  Would you be able to post something with a much higher gain setting?  I don't know if the self noise on your Josephson's is low enough to make this practical, but they're probably quieter than the mics most of us here are using.  Just trying to get a sense of self noise at high gain levels.

[WiFiJeff]

Will be doing this this weekend, I hope. 

Has anyone any idea why ~30 dB gain on a SD633 to max out would equal 16.7 dB (with the boost in post to 0 dB) on the F8?  Am I comparing apples and oranges, or where is the extra 15 dB coming from?

Jeff

[voltronic]

Will be doing this this weekend, I hope. 

Has anyone any idea why ~30 dB gain on a SD633 to max out would equal 16.7 dB (with the boost in post to 0 dB) on the F8?  Am I comparing apples and oranges, or where is the extra 15 dB coming from?

Jeff

Pure speculation here.  Were you recording iso tracks on both recorders or comparing the stereo mixdown tracks?  I'm thinking it's possible that one or both of these decks may have the ability to record the stereo mix track at a different level than the separate iso tracks that is user-adjustable.  If that's the case, I would suspect that it's set on your 633 as you should be getting way more than 30 dB if at max.

I have no experience with either unit though, so hopefully others can give a better answer.

[WiFiJeff]

No, I was recording ISO tracks on both.  Both machines allow you to record L/R mix (SD633 another stereo mix as well) with any of the ISO tracks panned to L, R or in between, with faders for levels, but I only record the ISOs and mix in post.

Jeff

[aaronji]

I have no experience with either deck, so take this with a grain of salt...

My thought is that you are not actually adding 30 dB of gain with the 663.  This is all very back of the envelope (for real; I scribbled this out on an actual envelope), but maybe worth a look.  According to DPA's Microphone University, "sound pressure level inside a concert grand piano can exceed 130 dB SPL peak less than eight inches (20 cm) over the strings".  From your description, your mics were about 5 feet from the piano, so if it was being played at near peak volume, it would be about 112 dBSPL at the caps.  Those mics are quite sensitive (50 mV/Pa), so at 112 they are putting out about -6 dBu.  SD specs the maximum mic input as 0 dBu, so I think you would likely be overloading at 30 dB gain.  Probably the -6 dBu figure is inflated, as I only used your estimate of horizontal distance (the extra height would make it further, per Pythagoras, but probably not a whole lot) and because the actual SPLs at the piano probably didn't reach that 130 dB extreme.  So probably in the ball park of the F8 gain setting would get you touching zero.

If possible, I would send a signal of known SPL into the 663 and see how much gain is added at that 9 o'clock setting.

[EDIT:  Assuming I did the math correctly...]

[Gutbucket]

Wow. This sounds great. Kudos!

[WiFiJeff]

Okay, SQ.

https://www.hightail.com/download/bXBiYUlpOC9wTVhLd01UQw

The Josephson C700S is less sensitive than the C617, the tape is of the X and Y caps mixed to Blumlein (no use of W).  I used 40 dB of gain this time, and added 3.7 dB in post.  Instead of mid-stage, the stand was front stage with the rear lobe of the X-axis figure-8 facing the audience.   So more audience noise (throat-clearing, coughing, program rustling, chair noise, and always HVAC noise) and also more noise from the players (toe-tapping, chair squeaks, breathing).  The stand was about 5 feet from the front of the players, about 6-7 feet off the stage floor.  Used RX3 to get out some noises, but the posted sample has less of this than tracks where cell-phone noises, etc. had to be more aggressively tackled.

Not in my view a scientific test of the pres, but for me it shows that the F8 is usable for acoustic chamber music.

Jeff

[Bruce Watson]

Not in my view a scientific test of the pres, but for me it shows that the F8 is usable for acoustic chamber music.

Excellent. Thanks for posting this sample. I'd say the F8 passed this test with flying colors. This should go a long way toward dispelling any doubts about the quality of the micpres in the F8.

I'd love to hear a split from these mics into an SD 788t, because I'm wondering how much better it might be. I'm guessing, not much at all. But The SD is hugely more expensive. Hmmm....

[voltronic]

Another great recording, Jeff!  The F8 is certainly proving itself worthy, and thanks for demonstrating another really nice mic.  I don't know that quartet - what was it?  And are you able to credit the players?  They are excellent.

Also, what's with the edit just before the applause?

[stevetoney]

Not classical, but here's another native recording into the F8 with no outboard preamp.  The band is a three piece; drums, bass and steel drums.

https://archive.org/details/jsf2015-10-03.mk4_24bit

[noam]

Here's the F8 recording:

https://www.yousendit.com/download/bXBaSmI5NmNEa1hyZHNUQw

I received this recording today from Jeff and played it on my speakers. I've been playing Jeff's tapes from this particular venue, with this particular piano for 7,8,9 ? years; I've spent hundreds of hours on them. This recording sounds way better than any of the previous ones with the Sound Devices units. Specifically, it sounds dramatically better than the previous one, taped with the SD 633. Direct comparison with the previous recital makes the previous one sound like it was taped with toy equipment. The resonance is so much more alive and attractive, magic. The piano sound is luxurious, rich, bigger dynamic range, both darkish (deep - a lot of overtones), at the same time sweet and powerful. I don't hear any ambiance nor is it dry. It sounds like a phenomenal live commercial recording. The sound is very different; the resonance is completely different. I would have said these are different mics (they are exactly the same).

The playing is way above average for that venue, but it cannot explain the sound. This is quite stunning - is it possible that the F8 preamps are actually better than the Sound Devices' ones? At any rate there is no reason for me to imagine this because apriori I had a strong bias against the F8. WTF?

Jeff, could you please post a sample of the previous (SD 633) recital for people to compare and comment? It is very important because if the F8 is so much better, I need to dump my 702 presto.

Noam

[voltronic]

Not classical, but here's another native recording into the F8 with no outboard preamp.  The band is a three piece; drums, bass and steel drums.

https://archive.org/details/jsf2015-10-03.mk4_24bit

Listening to this now - can you give any more details on how things were miked and what was through the PA?  The drums sound fantastic, but the balance between instruments is kind of the opposite of what I was expecting.

[henselt1]

Enjoyed your comments on recording classical piano.  I'm considering purchasing the Zoom F8 and use exclusively for stereo recording for classical piano.  Have Steinway "D"; Neumann U87 mics and have extensively recorded and edited recordings for Musical Heritage Society using Sound Tools (no longer use Sound Tools).  Want to see if getting my 9 ft. Steinway in top condition and recording with the Neumanns and F8 will reap professional results (first in my living room, and if necessary, renting a hall) Hall rental is a huge expense.  Would appreciate your thoughts.  The link you provided of your piano recording has expired.  Could you send again.  Thanks for your thoughts on all this.  Dan

[WiFiJeff]

Some further observations on the F8:

A/D  I used to record two channels with a Grace V3 and SD722.  Over a few years of weekly recordings, I found that the best sounding use was to go analog-out of the V3 into the 722 using the Sound Devices A/D converters rather than the V3's.  This seat-of-the-pants observation came to mind recently when looking at the specs of the various machines.  I see that the V3 A/D is listed at 110 dB (A-Weighted) dynamic range, while the 722 is at 114 (as is the SD633 I also use), which sort of confirms what I think I was hearing.  The 788 claims 123 dB.  The F8 sheet has 120 dB, and nothing I have heard leads me to doubt this.  Not a scientific measurement, but I think an indication.

Headphones: there was some negative comment on the net initially.  My experience is that the headphone amp sounds great.  The M/S selection allows for pretty good imaging of my Josephson C700S, overall the sound is as good or better than the 722 or 633.  However, there is a glitch of unknown origin.  Two or three times my left channel has dropped out.  The mic was good, I could see on the meters that the signal was there, and quickly swapping my headset with a pair of earbuds showed that the problem was the F8.  Both most recent times the loss of signal came after I had finished setup and before I started recording, and both times I got signal back after about 4-5 minutes of fussing with the headphone routing (by the way, the "favorites" routing choices on the 633 is more convenient than the F8, where you re-route in detail from the menu).  Not sure if my unit has a hardware defect of there is something in the firmware.  A bit worrying.

Jeff (still happy with the F8)