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Offline lsd2525

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Suggestions on a technique?
« on: January 16, 2016, 07:27:19 PM »
OK. Going to do a 007 job Friday night, national act on a "solo acoustic" tour. First row DFC balcony, 2200 seat theatre. Everything I get from there will be PA/room. My question: This will be one of those gigs where the audience applause between the songs will be louder (or at least louder in my seat) than the actual performance. I'm thinking I should run limiter "on" on the M10, set levels for the actual music part, and the limiter will take care of the crazy levels of applause. Good idea or no? I really don't want to deal with this in post; if there is a good way to deal with in post I'm all ears, but can anyone really tell when the loud audience reaction is beat down by the limiter? And if so, so what? Thoughts?
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2016, 12:08:40 AM »
OK. Going to do a 007 job Friday night, national act on a "solo acoustic" tour. First row DFC balcony, 2200 seat theatre. Everything I get from there will be PA/room. My question: This will be one of those gigs where the audience applause between the songs will be louder (or at least louder in my seat) than the actual performance. I'm thinking I should run limiter "on" on the M10, set levels for the actual music part, and the limiter will take care of the crazy levels of applause. Good idea or no? I really don't want to deal with this in post; if there is a good way to deal with in post I'm all ears, but can anyone really tell when the loud audience reaction is beat down by the limiter? And if so, so what? Thoughts?

I agree with your thinking, but be sure to run the level so the music is a good bit below the limiter. I imagine the M10 limiter is for speech, and therefore not optimally set up for music. I have no idea where the M10 limiter kicks in (-6, a wild guess) but I'd set the music well below that, and then let whatever horrible stuff the limiter does apply to the audience noise.
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Offline thunderbolt

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2016, 03:07:49 AM »
Your plan may prove to be the easiest, but with that kind of recording scenario, you'll get much better results by not limiting while recording.  Set levels for the music.  Unless it is an insanely loud, uncontrolled crowd, you should be able to compress/hard limit the audience in post fairly easily.  Takes some practice and experimentation, but worth it.  Only other choice is to edit out the crowd, but that takes away from the whole experience and why we tape.

Offline fandelive

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2016, 06:12:13 AM »
You have a blacony seat so I guess people around you won't raise their hands while clapping. My suggestions would be :

While recording :
* use cardioid (or hyper-cardioid) caps
* mount your mics at head/ears level
* don't set any limiter on the record device

In post :
* use a de-clicker to remove unwanted clap noise

I already taped a seated acoutic gig doing that way and did every unwanted noise minoring in post. I think I've got great results.
Good luck ;)
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Offline aaronji

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2016, 07:48:50 AM »
What boltman said.  Set your levels for the music and hard limit the applause in post.  I record a lot of jazz, where I encounter this regularly, and have found that you can pretty drastically limit the applause with no audible impact...

Offline lsd2525

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2016, 07:55:03 AM »
What boltman said.  Set your levels for the music and hard limit the applause in post.  I record a lot of jazz, where I encounter this regularly, and have found that you can pretty drastically limit the applause with no audible impact...

So I don't really need to worry about the applause going into the red because I can hard limit in post?
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Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2016, 08:07:56 AM »

So I don't really need to worry about the applause going into the red because I can hard limit in post?

I'd say you don't need to worry about the applause going into the red because applause that clips doesn't sound much different from regular applause. It's all just a bunch of sharp peaks.

You can go either way here, really. Turning on the limiter will reduce the clapping peaks on the fly, which (in my experience) sounds indistinguishable from reducing them in post. On the other hand, if you're recording 24-bit, you have plenty of data to work with even if set the levels fairly low and increase the volume in post.

What AJ said is most important: Make sure the music isn't clipping or triggering the limiter, and you're fine.

Offline lsd2525

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2016, 09:05:59 AM »

So I don't really need to worry about the applause going into the red because I can hard limit in post?

I'd say you don't need to worry about the applause going into the red because applause that clips doesn't sound much different from regular applause. It's all just a bunch of sharp peaks.

You can go either way here, really. Turning on the limiter will reduce the clapping peaks on the fly, which (in my experience) sounds indistinguishable from reducing them in post. On the other hand, if you're recording 24-bit, you have plenty of data to work with even if set the levels fairly low and increase the volume in post.

What AJ said is most important: Make sure the music isn't clipping or triggering the limiter, and you're fine.

Maybe I don't have a clear working knowledge of how the limiter works. I always thought that what the limiter did was to truncate the input when it hits 0 db in order to keep it from overloading. I saw someone on here mention something about -6dB. Am I off base here?
 
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Offline Lostbrook

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2016, 09:26:45 AM »
From the M10 manual:

"When the limiter is set to ON, the input sound that is too loud is adjusted automatically to the maximum input level to prevent sound distortion."   

"When the limiter is set to ON, the limiter function of the PCM recorder covers the input from the maximum input level to +12 dB.  If the input excceds this limit, sounds may be distorted."

I've never heard or seen any evidence of the limiter being triggered below 0.  I recorded an acoustic show yesterday and, having read this topic, I decided to let the limiter handle the applause.  As long as the applause doesn't go above +12, it's all good.  The audience was very respectful during the music and waited until the last note faded before applauding, so it will be very easy for me to isolate and lower the volume of the applause. 

Edit:  I set the music to peak at -12 and had occasional peaks at -6.  And it's impossible to tell the actual peak level of the applause while recording since it only registers as "OVER". 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 09:33:09 AM by Lostbrook »

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2016, 09:32:07 AM »

Maybe I don't have a clear working knowledge of how the limiter works. I always thought that what the limiter did was to truncate the input when it hits 0 db in order to keep it from overloading. I saw someone on here mention something about -6dB. Am I off base here?

Only reducing sounds over 0 dB would be the same as clipping, though. (The distortion comes from the flat-topped peaks when everything above 0 dB is reduced to a single value of 0 dB.) The only way for a limiter to actually work to prevent clipping is to start reducing volume at a point below 0 dB and then gradually reduce the slope of everything above that so that it peaks below 0 dB — on-the-fly dynamic compression, really.

Unfortunately, the M10 manual isn't much help here, saying only:

Quote
When the “LIMITER” is set to “ON,” the limiter function of the PCM recorder covers the input from the maximum input level to +12 dB. If the input exceeds this limit, sounds may be distorted.

So everything from X to +12 dB is dynamically compressed, presumably, but the value of X is an official mystery. Unless someone here has performed tests to try to determine it?

Offline Lostbrook

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2016, 09:49:40 AM »
I can't find it in the manual at the moment but I thought I read something about the M10 recording a parallel track at a lower level and substituting it when exceeding 0 with the limiter on.  I don't have time to search for something more authoritative at the moment, but I did find this:

http://esem.name/?pcmm10

"There's a clever built-in 'digital' limiter, which records a shadow track at a lower level of -12dB . Once the main track level clips, the unit replaces (via crossfade) the distorted segment with the backup recording, normalised to 0db."

Offline aaronji

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2016, 10:22:12 AM »
You can go either way here, really. Turning on the limiter will reduce the clapping peaks on the fly, which (in my experience) sounds indistinguishable from reducing them in post. On the other hand, if you're recording 24-bit, you have plenty of data to work with even if set the levels fairly low and increase the volume in post.

An advantage to doing it in post is that you can apply the limiter exactly where, and to the extent, you want...

Plus, as the previous few posts demonstrate, this function is poorly documented for a lot of recorders, so you don't even really know what the thing is doing.

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2016, 10:31:39 AM »

So I don't really need to worry about the applause going into the red because I can hard limit in post?

I'd say you don't need to worry about the applause going into the red because applause that clips doesn't sound much different from regular applause. It's all just a bunch of sharp peaks.

You can go either way here, really. Turning on the limiter will reduce the clapping peaks on the fly, which (in my experience) sounds indistinguishable from reducing them in post. On the other hand, if you're recording 24-bit, you have plenty of data to work with even if set the levels fairly low and increase the volume in post.

What AJ said is most important: Make sure the music isn't clipping or triggering the limiter, and you're fine.


hmmmmmmmmmm, agree and disagree.I think clipped applause sounds weird, but maybe that's just my ears....

I'd try for applause at or near 0. Post process procedure for me for that type of show is to boost the music and decrease the applause BOTH. 24 bit for sure.  I think that post production sounds better than limiter. I use the envelope amplify in soundforge, both upwards and downwards. I can get 30 to 40% down on the applause and up to 100% boost on the music without it sounding too strange. I have done that a LOT with omni recording of classical music

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2016, 10:48:27 AM »
I record a lot of stuff like this.  My preference is making natural sounding recordings, which "teleport the listener to that time and place" and are as enjoyable for me (and by extension, others) to listen to as possible.  Although a listener is welcome to listen to just a single song or handful of them in isolation if they prefer, my aim is to make the entire concert one seamless and enjoyable listening experience.  My goal is not recording a bunch of individual songs with audience noise between them, I'm recording the entire event and feel strongly the entire thing should be as enjoyable to listen to as I can make it.

If that's your goal as well, set your levels so that the loudest sounds recorded will not clip.  It doesn't matter if the loudest sounds are produced by the musicians or the audience.  For events with this kind of SPL, I determine an appropriate recording level by gearing up and clapping loudly myself beforehand at home, setting levels so that only my loudest clapping clips.  I then don't have to worry about monitoring levels at all during the recording.  Although I could engage a limiter on the recorder as a secondary safety, I don't do so because I don't need it, and because limiter circuits have a history of effecting the sound even when they are not active.  That may or may not be the case with digital limiters, but I've set levels conservatively enough to prevent all but a very occasional, overly loud applause or ear-piercing whistle by a person ass in very near proximity from clipping slightly.

I can think of two reasons someone might want to set levels higher than that, which would purposefully allow the applause to clip but not the music: 

1) If the self-noise floor of the recording rig is higher than the noise-floor of the venue, and boosting levels later raises that noise-floor to a level where it becomes more subjectively objectionable than the hard clipping of the applause peaks.

2) If the recordist doesn't care to go through the effort of optimizing the playback level and dynamics of the recording later, preferring instead to try to get the average level of the music high enough by the initial recording level setting alone, even though there is not enough headroom to keep the applause from clipping (and sounding less natural, more bothersome and more fatiguing, regardless of dynamics manipulation which might be done to it later).

Those are both logical reasons for letting the applause clip.  But neither apply to me.  I optimize the recording level for recording.  I optimize the overall level of the file, and dynamics within that range, after the recording has been made when I have far more control over those things.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 12:10:04 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline lsd2525

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2016, 11:49:48 AM »
Well, my goal is to have a recording that I don't have to crank it up to hear the songs, then crank it down because the applause is so loud, etc. Should I maybe record with the applause peaking at 0, and then apply some sort of compression in post? Pros and cons?

Kind of funny......this person is who I made my first recording of back in '99 with a MZ70 (I think) Sony MD and a set of Len's binaural mics in the exact same venue. Or course, I was 2nd row DFC. Came out pretty good considering I didn't have a clue what I was doing. The loud parts do sound a little harsh when they overrev.


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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2016, 12:54:40 PM »
Well, my goal is to have a recording that I don't have to crank it up to hear the songs, then crank it down because the applause is so loud, etc. Should I maybe record with the applause peaking at 0, and then apply some sort of compression in post?

That's the path to "as good as you can make it sound", making those dynamics adjustments afterwards which allows you to check by ear to determine what works and what doesn't, how much of what to apply, and where to use what.  It also allows you to use several methods in combination to better optimize the dynamic range of the recording without introducing audible artifacts.  It's far more nuanced and allows for the ability to undo things and start over if you run astray, rather than using the blunt bludgeon of reducing the dynamics by using the limiter on the recorder. Those other dynamics techniques can also help avoid the need to constantly adjust the playback volume, even though they aren't working on the applause portions at all- they may be raising the level of the quiet stuff and bringing out the previous unheard details (see the parallel compression thread), or just reducing the loudness range of the musical portions between the applause sections (check out other compression and post-production sound editor technique threads here at TS).

It's not "wrong" to use the limiter on the recorder to squash the level of the applause down.  If not having to take time to do the processing later is more important to you, heavy limiting of loud applause levels while recording will achieve the goal of reducing the overall dynamic range so you won't need to reach for the volume knob between each song.  However, that won't lead to a recording which sounds as good as doing it the otherway.  The limiter on a recorder is not intended to compress the overall dynamics of the recording, it is only meant as a safely device to prevent occasional "overs", softening the clip of the peaks instead of hard-clipping them.   

A common recorder feature which is intended to reduce the entire resulting dynamic range while recording is Auto-record-gain, but that doesn't work very well for music and I don't think anyone here would recommend using it for the kind of recording we are doing. It's mostly intended for recording conversation and lectures.  It's adjusting level "all the time" rather than just during peaks above a threshold level, so it's going to screw up the music parts along with the applause parts.  If set appropriately, at least a limiter is only going to screw with the applause parts, even if it isn't really the most appropriate tool for the job.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 12:58:08 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline lsd2525

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2016, 12:29:52 PM »
Well this sucks. Show is tomorrow and it's in Asheville NC. I'm in Charlotte. Supposed to be a huge winter storm hit tonight/tomorrow. Almost hoping it gets postponed so I don't have to risk my life driving through a blizzard to get to the mountains.
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ilduclo

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2016, 12:45:55 PM »
Well, my goal is to have a recording that I don't have to crank it up to hear the songs, then crank it down because the applause is so loud, etc. Should I maybe record with the applause peaking at 0, and then apply some sort of compression in post? 

exactly, IMO

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2016, 05:10:51 PM »
Well, my goal is to have a recording that I don't have to crank it up to hear the songs, then crank it down because the applause is so loud, etc. Should I maybe record with the applause peaking at 0, and then apply some sort of compression in post?

That's exactly what I do: Record so that nothing clips, then look at where the music peaks in post, and if it's, say, -12dB, then dynamically compress the hell (4:1 ratio, usually) out of everything above that. Then normalize so everything is at a reasonable volume for playback.

I started doing this back in my 16-bit iRiver days, but having 24 bits of data available on the M10 means I can set levels as low as necessary without worrying about losing important data.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2016, 05:24:49 PM »
 :coolguy:
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline acidjack

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2016, 11:31:38 PM »
Well, my goal is to have a recording that I don't have to crank it up to hear the songs, then crank it down because the applause is so loud, etc. Should I maybe record with the applause peaking at 0, and then apply some sort of compression in post?

That's exactly what I do: Record so that nothing clips, then look at where the music peaks in post, and if it's, say, -12dB, then dynamically compress the hell (4:1 ratio, usually) out of everything above that. Then normalize so everything is at a reasonable volume for playback.

I started doing this back in my 16-bit iRiver days, but having 24 bits of data available on the M10 means I can set levels as low as necessary without worrying about losing important data.

A nice and cleanly stated summary of a good way to do things. Fear of compression is a baffling notion.
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Offline gewwang

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2016, 02:25:52 AM »
Well this sucks. Show is tomorrow and it's in Asheville NC. I'm in Charlotte. Supposed to be a huge winter storm hit tonight/tomorrow. Almost hoping it gets postponed so I don't have to risk my life driving through a blizzard to get to the mountains.

The show was postponed.

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2016, 12:49:13 PM »
Well this sucks. Show is tomorrow and it's in Asheville NC. I'm in Charlotte. Supposed to be a huge winter storm hit tonight/tomorrow. Almost hoping it gets postponed so I don't have to risk my life driving through a blizzard to get to the mountains.

The show was postponed.

Yep. Here's hoping they don't reschedule on a Tuesday lol. You going?
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Offline gewwang

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2016, 03:01:37 PM »
Well this sucks. Show is tomorrow and it's in Asheville NC. I'm in Charlotte. Supposed to be a huge winter storm hit tonight/tomorrow. Almost hoping it gets postponed so I don't have to risk my life driving through a blizzard to get to the mountains.

The show was postponed.

Yep. Here's hoping they don't reschedule on a Tuesday lol. You going?

They rescheduled his Columbia show for late May and I had tickets for both. If they reschedule Asheville around that same week, then I should be able to go to both.

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2016, 09:47:09 AM »
Well this sucks. Show is tomorrow and it's in Asheville NC. I'm in Charlotte. Supposed to be a huge winter storm hit tonight/tomorrow. Almost hoping it gets postponed so I don't have to risk my life driving through a blizzard to get to the mountains.

The show was postponed.

Yep. Here's hoping they don't reschedule on a Tuesday lol. You going?

They rescheduled his Columbia show for late May and I had tickets for both. If they reschedule Asheville around that same week, then I should be able to go to both.

I didn't know Columbia had been canceled. Was thinking about going to that tomorrow since they cancelled Asheville. Oh well.....
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Offline Scooter123

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Re: Suggestions on a technique?
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2016, 11:54:22 AM »
Interesting thread

I usually record so nothing clips, and deal with everything post. 
Regards,
Scooter123

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