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Author Topic: !!Stereo Zoom simplified for PAS!!  (Read 6291 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: !!Stereo Zoom simplified for PAS!!
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2012, 12:22:38 PM »
I listen for and like hearing distinct positions of individual instruments sources as well- which I think of as a higher-level illusion built atop the foundation formed out of those more basic recording aspects.  Only when those things are more or less correct can I put them out of mind and shift focus to higher level issues like imaging.. and maybe experinece that magic goosebump, spine-tingling 'willing suspension of disbelief' thing.  For me, multi-channel playback takes that one step further in listening for the imaging of the room sound itself, the reactions of people from various directions around the room, and even better location of sources on stage when that's appropriate.  It's facinating and addictive.  You are right on about the quality of the music and performance trumping all of this stuff though.  When considering what this is all really about, a cheap mono cassette recording of a sublime performance beats a technical marvel of a recording made of something musically worthless.  At it's core, it not about technique and gear comparisons but communicating the information and emotion of the music and the performance.

I've never heard any ambisonic or WFS playback systems myself.  I'd love to sometime.  But again, I don't think shooting for technical perfection with zillions of speakers would be an appropriate goal so much as acieving a more convincing illusion.

The primary value I find in all of the matrix surround and upmix techniques for music is the ambience extraction to help create a more convincing diffuse ambient field in the listening room which is one of the big components of a live musical experience.  In that light, all of them are basically fancy versions of the old Halfler difference technique.  In some ways the basic Halfler thing is better in its simplicy and leaving L/R path untouched, as it seems to me that many of the more advanced matrix techniques compromize the direct sound somewhat in trying to get improved differentiation of individual surround source locations which is more imortant for sound effects and movies.  When I do mix down my multi-channel recordings to stereo, I usually switch back and forth between monitoring in stereo and checking the DTS Neo6 and Dolby PLII music mode auto-upmixes of my 2-channel stereo mix.  I can do things to get the decoders to spread the room ambience and crowd reaction out to the sides and around the room with the decoders on, but I want to make sure that I don't do anything that would compromize the straight 2-channel stereo.  Usually I can get things so that it benefits the straight stereo playback as well as the matrix decode, so if someone has things setup correctly and wants turn the decoder on they can, and it's a win all around eitherway.
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Offline mosquito

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Re: !!Stereo Zoom simplified for PAS!!
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2012, 04:40:02 AM »
Thanks for the thread and ideas, Gutbucket. 

I carry around the SRA charts both on paper and as JPEGs in my cell phone.  The PAS-Zoom GIF files would work well like that too.

Offline MIQ

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Re: !!Stereo Zoom simplified for PAS!!
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2012, 12:39:55 AM »
When I do mix down my multi-channel recordings to stereo, I usually switch back and forth between monitoring in stereo and checking the DTS Neo6 and Dolby PLII music mode auto-upmixes of my 2-channel stereo mix.  I can do things to get the decoders to spread the room ambience and crowd reaction out to the sides and around the room with the decoders on, but I want to make sure that I don't do anything that would compromize the straight 2-channel stereo.  Usually I can get things so that it benefits the straight stereo playback as well as the matrix decode, so if someone has things setup correctly and wants turn the decoder on they can, and it's a win all around eitherway.

That is a great approach!  I imagine this involves using uncorrelated and/or out of phase signals you've captured.  Stuff like widely spaced omnis or the Side signal from a MS set up?  It is great that the Hafler technique is like the Side signal of a MS set up (L-R = S). 

-MIQ

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: !!Stereo Zoom simplified for PAS!!
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2012, 11:04:06 AM »
That's right. Wide spaced omnis often have enough decorellated information to do so effectively on their own, but increasing the S component of any stereo signal, not just one recorded as M/S, works too. Samplitude makes that simple by allowing switching of the panning feature from shifting level between two channels to adjusting the M/S mix of them to anything between mono and full reverse-polarity, over-wide stereo.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: !!Stereo Zoom simplified for PAS!!
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2016, 05:42:16 PM »
Try figure 8's in PAS outdoors.  They require the least spacing between mics of any pattern.  See here- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=177050.0
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: !!Stereo Zoom simplified for PAS!!
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2017, 03:09:29 PM »
Duplicate post below, which I just added to the follow up thread to this one- Improved PAS table (printable) - good imaging with high direct/reverberant pickup ratio. Although duplicate posting is discouraged for good reason, I'm also posting it here for those reading this thread who don't make it over to the other one, as I think this is good confirmation of how well improved PAS can work, even when the room sound is not a problem we are trying to work around..



Quote
Interesting streaming listening comparison of a few different microphone setups allowing one to listen to the way they capture stereo ambience at Helmut Wittek's Hauptmikrofon website, here- http://www.hauptmikrofon.de/audio/stereoambience.html

Granted none of the samples are of music, but they do provide a useful basic comparison for hearing the differences between X/Y coincident, two near-spaced setups (ORTF and improved-PAS-like), and a spaced omni configuration.

I'm posting the link here because I find I personally prefer the setup labeled "quasi-ORTF" for all samples there except the construction site, and that "quasi-ORTF" setup closely resembles a typical "Improved-PAS" configuration (40cm / 40 degrees) with the microphones angled only 20 degrees away from center - which is a pretty typical PAS angle from the taper section or soundboard area further back in the room.  Only on the construction site sample did I prefer the ORTF sample for it's more distinct left/right imaging width.  For all the other samples I felt the quasi-ORTF samples produced a better balance between sharp imaging (X/Y furthest to that extreme) and natural sounding diffuse ambient openness (spaced omnis furthest to that extreme).


A few comments-

I was listening on headphones.

There is no right or wrong choice here, only personal preference.

I like the improved-PAS-like quasi-ORTF samples here because of their stereo qualities - that is to say, how they reproduce the sound, even though it is not actually being leveraged for the reasons we'd choose PAS!  It just sounds better to me than the other samples.  Where as the primary purpose for choosing PAS is to either simplify setup, or maximize the direct/reverberant ratio as much as possible.  It's very encouraging that it also simply sounds better and more natural to me when in a prefered recording location without the ease of setup constraint.

I like to angle spaced omnis apart from each other rather than pointing parallel to each other, especially if that pair is the only mics I'm using.  That provides some additional level difference information at high frequencies which makes the imaging somewhat less washy and more distinct.  I think that would improve the spaced omni samples here, but the way its been done here more clearly represents the basic differences between setups without that kind of modification.

I wish there was a way to play both the spaced omnis and X/Y samples simultaneously.  I like that setup for live music recording because it sort of gets the best of both worlds.  There was a sample player page at the Schoeps website at one point (may still be up) which allowed similar samples to be played singly or simultaneously.   I don't think it was intended for simultaneous playback of more than one sample at a time but it worked.  It was very interesting hearing the difference between each setup on its own as well as combinations of two setups, as in a four microphone configuration.  It helped confirm my suspected preference for X/Y + spaced omnis over near-spaced + spaced omnis, and over all of the two mic configurations alone.  Best of both worlds from a harmonious combination.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 03:16:04 PM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

 

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