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Author Topic: Home Theater Forums?  (Read 22733 times)

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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2006, 09:42:12 AM »
it makes a difference with sports.  1080i gets macro blocked with fast action, which is why most sports is broadcast in 720p...

not exactly true...it's a network by network thing.  fox, abc and espn broadcast in 720p.  the other networks use 1080i.

1080i doesn't always exhibit macroblocking, it just depends on the quality of the de-interlacer in the TV.

good point i was looking strictly at my personal experience.  For the olympics, NBC did 1080i and the diving events were painful to watch as a result...but your right...only based on my set/experience

NBC is somewhat notorious for poor HD sports.  It's evident on their sunday night broadcasts as well.  I'm not sure where the problem is in their production, but based on internet comments, it seems pretty likely the problem is in their HD processing.

nick, do you know if DirecTV HD boxes output the native resolution for that channel or is everything being output at a single resolution.  for example, my comcast HD box (motorola box) will only output either 720p or 1080i.  so anything broadcast in a different resolution than the output resolution is scaled by the box to the output resolution (ie 720p ESPN gets scaled and interlaced to 1080i).  Is this how directv works? 

I'm considering getting a cable card just to eliminate this issue (there is no point in scaling from 720p to 1080i, then to 768p)...but i'd still have to keep the moto box for the DVR.

Offline nickgregory

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2006, 09:48:33 AM »
it makes a difference with sports.  1080i gets macro blocked with fast action, which is why most sports is broadcast in 720p...

not exactly true...it's a network by network thing.  fox, abc and espn broadcast in 720p.  the other networks use 1080i.

1080i doesn't always exhibit macroblocking, it just depends on the quality of the de-interlacer in the TV.

good point i was looking strictly at my personal experience.  For the olympics, NBC did 1080i and the diving events were painful to watch as a result...but your right...only based on my set/experience

NBC is somewhat notorious for poor HD sports.  It's evident on their sunday night broadcasts as well.  I'm not sure where the problem is in their production, but based on internet comments, it seems pretty likely the problem is in their HD processing.

nick, do you know if DirecTV HD boxes output the native resolution for that channel or is everything being output at a single resolution.  for example, my comcast HD box (motorola box) will only output either 720p or 1080i.  so anything broadcast in a different resolution than the output resolution is scaled by the box to the output resolution (ie 720p ESPN gets scaled and interlaced to 1080i).  Is this how directv works? 

I'm considering getting a cable card just to eliminate this issue (there is no point in scaling from 720p to 1080i, then to 768p)...but i'd still have to keep the moto box for the DVR.

My DTV HD DVR I have a button on the front that allows me to select what resolution it outputs (native, 480, 720p and 1080i), so I am assuming that what is sent to the TV via the DVI (in my case, HDMI would output the same thing) connection is the selected resolution...

Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2006, 09:50:30 AM »
that's a nice feature.  i have to go into the moto box service menu to change the output resolution (which requires turning off the box) so it's a PITA.

Offline nickgregory

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2006, 09:54:44 AM »
that's a nice feature.  i have to go into the moto box service menu to change the output resolution (which requires turning off the box) so it's a PITA.

definitely convenient.  Of course at the end of the month in my move, I am getting the upgraded DTV dish and HD DVR to allow me to receive MPEG4 compression level broadcasts, so all bets are off if they carry over good features to the new HW

Offline scervin

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2006, 12:36:34 PM »
Screw DTV and their HD-lite.  Get a nice antenna and grab the OTA signal.  Much better IMO.

I let the box send the native signal to the projector and let it scale.

Offline John Kelly

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2006, 01:06:16 PM »
Screw DTV and their HD-lite.  Get a nice antenna and grab the OTA signal.  Much better IMO.

I let the box send the native signal to the projector and let it scale.

Actually, that's what I'll be doing.  I decided I don't watch enough cable to justify the high monthly costs (plus I just moved into my first house, so I need to keep expenses down for now).

Do you have any recommendations for antennas?  Do all indoor antennas suck?  I'd rather not mount anything outside if it's not necessary...
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Offline nickgregory

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2006, 01:14:34 PM »
Screw DTV and their HD-lite.  Get a nice antenna and grab the OTA signal.  Much better IMO.

I let the box send the native signal to the projector and let it scale.

I get all my locals via antenna (and I would agree, the PQ is miles better than DTV or cable)...DTV is for all the other programming



Screw DTV and their HD-lite.  Get a nice antenna and grab the OTA signal.  Much better IMO.

I let the box send the native signal to the projector and let it scale.

Actually, that's what I'll be doing.  I decided I don't watch enough cable to justify the high monthly costs (plus I just moved into my first house, so I need to keep expenses down for now).

Do you have any recommendations for antennas?  Do all indoor antennas suck?  I'd rather not mount anything outside if it's not necessary...

I own one of these on my current house (which I will be selling with the current house and buying a new one for the new house), and love it....it is probably overkill as I am only ~15 miles from the local antennas (take a look at http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx  to figure out where you are in relation to the source)...but it is fantastic.  Easy to install and easy to get pointed the right direction...

http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm

Offline John Kelly

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2006, 01:44:33 PM »
That looks good, and it can be used indoors?  Where can I get one?  Can't seem to find a dealer from their site...
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Offline nickgregory

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2006, 01:57:33 PM »
That looks good, and it can be used indoors?  Where can I get one?  Can't seem to find a dealer from their site...
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=winegard+square+shooter&hl=en&btnG=Search+Froogle

I assume it can be used indoors, I have mine mounted on the roof...

Offline scervin

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2006, 03:14:07 PM »
Screw DTV and their HD-lite.  Get a nice antenna and grab the OTA signal.  Much better IMO.

I let the box send the native signal to the projector and let it scale.

Actually, that's what I'll be doing.  I decided I don't watch enough cable to justify the high monthly costs (plus I just moved into my first house, so I need to keep expenses down for now).

Do you have any recommendations for antennas?  Do all indoor antennas suck?  I'd rather not mount anything outside if it's not necessary...

How about an outdoor 10' boom antenna put in the attic.  Yeah buddy....that is the way to go.  Fits right in the trusses.

Offline John Kelly

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2006, 03:42:38 PM »
I own one of these on my current house (which I will be selling with the current house and buying a new one for the new house), and love it....it is probably overkill as I am only ~15 miles from the local antennas (take a look at http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx  to figure out where you are in relation to the source)...but it is fantastic.  Easy to install and easy to get pointed the right direction...

http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm

Looks like I'm only about 10 miles from the local antennas.  Thanks for the site, Nick.  +T
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Offline heath

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2006, 10:26:15 PM »

NBC is somewhat notorious for poor HD sports.  It's evident on their sunday night broadcasts as well.  I'm not sure where the problem is in their production, but based on internet comments, it seems pretty likely the problem is in their HD processing.


The problems with NBC have to be at the Master Control level.  The trucks they are using are the finest in the country (I built them ;)  )   Seriously though, they have some of the best equipment made at their disposal (everything is 1080p including cameras) , so the signal has to be being poorly manipulated once it leaves the truck's transmission room.  Bottom line is that just about every network needs to improve it's infrastructure to keep up with the market's technological advancements. 

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Offline heath

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2006, 10:29:07 PM »

 there just will not be the incentive to switch to 1080p because the average consumer won't notice the difference. 

understood.  kind of like 24/96 audio, unfortunately.

Quote
second, and somewhat related to the first, is it's got to be driven by sales of dvd's.  I think just like regular cd v. dvd-a or sacd, I just don't think most people will care.  I think the enhanced resolution of HD-DVD or blu-ray will not be a big enough difference to appeal to the average consumer.  i think it will stay a niche market. 

again, I reluctantly agree...just like SACD and DVD-A, price and lack of understanding will likely keep this at a niche, but we'll keep making our trucks 1080p with high hopes and our fingers crossed.  :)
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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2006, 08:39:17 AM »

Quote
second, and somewhat related to the first, is it's got to be driven by sales of dvd's.  I think just like regular cd v. dvd-a or sacd, I just don't think most people will care.  I think the enhanced resolution of HD-DVD or blu-ray will not be a big enough difference to appeal to the average consumer.  i think it will stay a niche market. 

again, I reluctantly agree...just like SACD and DVD-A, price and lack of understanding will likely keep this at a niche, but we'll keep making our trucks 1080p with high hopes and our fingers crossed.  :)

Heath...production question for you.  when HD is broadcast in 1080i, is it typically produced at 1080p and then interlaced?  or is it produced at 720p and and up-rezz'ed/interlaced.  or can they natively shoot in 1080i?  natively producing in 1080i doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense, but i don't know about the production process.

a couple of other things...the first gen 1080p tv's from sony last year actually cannot accept a 1080p input.  pretty ridiculous, right?  they cannot accept 1080p over either hdmi or component, so even though they can resolve all the detail of a 1080 source, they cannot accept a 1080p input.  and while more and more 1080 tv's are hitting the market, there are still far more 768 panels being sold.  so while i think we'll creep along toward 1080p, i just don't think there is enough difference to really create a consumer clamor for 1080p.  but i think we'll get there eventually, the format war will hopefully get sorted out, and hopefully a lot of material has been produced in 1080p and can be released on hddvd or bluray.  and hopefully, the cable/satellite bandwidth situation will improve to the point where it's just as easy to do.

i wonder if 1080p may be offered by cable providers as a Higher-Tier cable service initially.  you know how like hdtv is like an additional 5 to 10 dollars per month...maybe they call it XHDTV and charge $19.95 per month for stuff broadcast in 1080p.  maybe it will be like a XHDTV movie channel or something.


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Re: Home Theater Forums?
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2006, 09:09:08 AM »
Up until recently I worked in product mgmt in the IPTV organization here and have some quick thoughts.

The cable co's have an absolute bandwith limitation in that most of their backbone is coax, which has a fixed ceiling as to how much bandwith intensive programming they can take on.  They are trying to address this by pushing the programming content as far out into the neighborhoods as possible (those big metal cabinets in your neighborhood hidden by a bush), that way, when you request a program it is resident at that cabinet and there doesnt need to be a dedicated path for you all the way to their central office.  This helps with bandwith, as they deploy all of the content to those cabinets, and then the cabinet routes it to the requestors.  So instead of 100 people grabbing ESPN HD from the central office, tying up that bandwith...ESPN HD is provided to the cabinet as one path, and grabbed from there.  So while they have bandwith limitations, they can defeat it by laying more coax from the central office to the cabinets..

Satellite is a bit different in that their bandwith limitation  has zero to do with existing delivery infrastructure.  It is all about satellites in the sky, dishes that can recognize and receive from all of these satellites and compression.  Rumor is that next year, they will be launching 3 more sats in the air, which will allow them to deliver HD locals for every local that they provide SD service for today (though I agree with Scott that if you have the option, receiving HD locals over antenna will beat the DTV PQ every day of the week),and 40 more cable style HD offerings (who the hell knows what they will offer here...likely the channels that Dish Network offers over HD today).  In addition to the satellites, they are driving customers to replace their existing 3 LNB dishes with 5 LNB dishes to get all of the satellites and new receivers to be able to receive and decode MPEG4 compression. 

On compression real quick...it is a misconception that some providers do not use compression, the fact is they all do.  The only cut out is the programming received over the air.  And from what I have seen they all will be moving to MPEG4 and whatever compression algorythyms continue to come out to be able to increase their offering without necessarily increasing the size of their pipe.

The last providers are the wild card here, the telcos.  They have the network in place in some areas to immediately jump in and provide TV services.  Add to that, they are losing business to Vonage and cable co's, so they are looking to mega package all services (voice, mobile, data, video).  Currently in most markets, they are gated like the cable cos are in that their embedded infrastructure cannot handle the high bandwith requirements associated with TV.  But, in the neighborhoods that have deployed fiber optic cable, their bandwith is significanly larger than what anyone else in this space can offer (considering in the cable space you would need to lay a bunch of coax, and in the satellite space, you would need more sats in the sky and new receiver equipment).  The key is and always has been fiber in the ground.  That said, Verizon has 2 experimental neighborhoods, one in Florida, one in California that they are providing quad services to today (phone, mobile, data, video), and once they perfect the business model, I would expect to see them and other service providers jump into this market with both feet.  Fact is they absolutely dominate the cable cos, by in effect giving away phone services at cost and make it back on video/data.  In addition to the fiber though, acquiring content (which is not cheap) is a barrier to entry.  But I dont see this as a huge issue to these guys in that they are losing money through lost voice services by not doing this and most of them have the coffers to cover the initial expense, as long as the business case justifies it on the back end.

So, long winded answer...bottom line, I am planning on continuing getting my TV via DTV and OTA, and my phone and data from timewarner cable...fact is DTV dominates TWC when it comes to available programming both in HD and SD.  However, when the telco service providers enter this space in my region, I will be all over it...

 

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