Topic: Sony PCM-M10 audio recorder - NEW

[gmm6797]

FWIW, ran this puppy Friday night....
Put in a brand new 16gb MicroSDHC on my way out the door, got to the show, it was not seen by the unit.  At set break, tried to figure out the issue.
Put it into 2 different cell phones, which could both see the disk and the 16gb free, back in the M10, nada, messed with it for like 20 minutes, formatted it in one of the phones, nada... put it back in the unit so I would not loose it, and it all of a sudden worked.

Anyone see this problem?  Once recognized by the M10, worked fine.

[gmm6797]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=129071.new#new

comparison of 722 to r09hr to m10

[jamesmcn]

FWIW, ran this puppy Friday night....
Put in a brand new 16gb MicroSDHC on my way out the door, got to the show, it was not seen by the unit. 

[...]

Anyone see this problem?  Once recognized by the M10, worked fine.

What brand, model, and speed class was your MicroSDHC card?

[Falconidave]

FWIW, ran this puppy Friday night....
Put in a brand new 16gb MicroSDHC on my way out the door, got to the show, it was not seen by the unit.  At set break, tried to figure out the issue.
Put it into 2 different cell phones, which could both see the disk and the 16gb free, back in the M10, nada, messed with it for like 20 minutes, formatted it in one of the phones, nada... put it back in the unit so I would not loose it, and it all of a sudden worked.

Anyone see this problem?  Once recognized by the M10, worked fine.

I had a similar recognition problem with an OEM Sandisk 16GB SDHC card.  I can't remember the exact details, but it took about 5 minutes of messin' with the menu to get it to see the card.  Once it saw it, and formatted has not been an issue since.  I can now switch out 2, 4, or 16GB cards w/o issue.

[gmm6797]

Sandisk 16gb card as well: http://www.meritline.com/sandisk-16gb-microsdhc-card---p-32630.aspx

[Artstar]

Put it into 2 different cell phones, which could both see the disk and the 16gb free, back in the M10, nada, messed with it for like 20 minutes, formatted it in one of the phones, nada... put it back in the unit so I would not loose it, and it all of a sudden worked.

Anyone see this problem?  Once recognized by the M10, worked fine.

If it's anything like the PCM-D50 the question then is, did you format the card as soon as you plugged it in or did you think it would just work with the card as is? If you didn't perform the format, then the card did not have the respective folders created in it. Without those folders, the recorder will not write to the card. Not having an M10 myself, I can't confirm this but I am assuming it's much like it's D50 brother which I know for a fact I had to do. If anything, it's always good practice to format any memory card in its respective gear anyway.

Or was the problem that it didn't even see the card to allow for a format?

[sdong]

Both D1 and D50 have two A/Ds (AK5358s in D50). Right after the usual analog input stages, the signal is split into two paths, both running their own A/D stages, one set for normal recording levels, one running 20dB lower. System controller selects the appropriate line to be committed into memory according to limiter settings.

It's hard to see the utility of that system - the problem that remains when recording using 24 bits is not digital clipping but analog clipping.  I'm not saying it doesn't work (in typical scenarios) but I don't see how it can! 

Hmmm. I don't have all the details exactly, as I don't have the service manuals myself...just two little pieces of schemas. Anyways, as far as I can tell..and what I was trying to tell is that the input limiting is "built in" at analog stages in D50, right in front of the ADs.

Nothing but external limiter in front of the recorder would prevent clipping the input stages if you'd have strong enough source. Next option would have something built into pre-amp stages like here, in a way. And the last, manipulating the already digitalized signal, which is kinda moot. Right?

This sounds misleading. The D50 does not 'switch depending on limiter settings'.
It simply digitizes TWO signals. One 20db down (or is it 12db, im not sure atm).
Both are digitized into some buffer memory. Normally, the 'normal level' AD is written to card memory.
Once the normal input get overloaded, the processor *replaces* the previous x seconds (depending on limiter speed settings) of what gets written to card with the signal from AD 2, or more precise, with whats in the temporary memory buffer of AD2 (which records 20db down from normal level). Crossfading is used at the start/end of the little snippet, and the -20db recorded snippet is also normalized of course, to keep the level difference as low as possible.
Really quite simple actually, and very useful.
It does indeed sound like the M10 does something different - something less 'costly' to produce i guess, one DA etc..

Oh and , concerning the M10, has anyone done a comparison to the D50 yet ??
I'd be very interested how it compares, specially noise-level wise...
Cheers
Oh and hi everybody. Just signed up. Been a field recorder for a long time, first with MDs, then R09 and nowadays with a D50 - internal mics and okm.

[gmm6797]

If it's anything like the PCM-D50 the question then is, did you format the card as soon as you plugged it in or did you think it would just work with the card as is? If you didn't perform the format, then the card did not have the respective folders created in it. Without those folders, the recorder will not write to the card. Not having an M10 myself, I can't confirm this but I am assuming it's much like it's D50 brother which I know for a fact I had to do. If anything, it's always good practice to format any memory card in its respective gear anyway.

Or was the problem that it didn't even see the card to allow for a format?

I believe the main issue was that the unit didnt recognize the card as being present.  All SD cards come formatted now... but, how can I get the folder structure on there with out a format, as I dont know the structure to create it manually... which came 1st the chicken or the egg?

[labello]

Sony PCM M10 Input Noise Comparision

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

[flintstone]

Here are the numbers from the Avisoft web page

Sony PCM-M10
EIN -120dBu  unweighted, -122 dBu A-weighted

Edirol R-09HR (Mic Gain High) 
EIN - 115dBu unweighted, -118 dBu A-weighted

Edirol R-09HR (Mic Gain Low)
EIN  - 100 dBu unweighted,  -103dBu A-weighted

The test results have a margin of error of + or - 2 dBu
so the Sony is a bit quieter than the R-09HR.  Whether you
can hear this difference depends on your subject, and particularly
the noise level your mic produces.  Loud band, won't hear it. 
Quiet ambience, probably can hear it if you're using a quiet mic.

Looking a bit further, we find:

Sony PCM-M10 clipping level -57dBu

Edirol R-09HR (Mic gain High) clipping level -43dBu

Edirol R-09HR (Mic gain Low) clipping level -22dBu

This means the Sony is pretty likely to clip (or be forced to use
its limiter to avoid clipping) when recording a loud band.
The R-09HR is less likely to clip.

Flintstone

[labello]

and another link:

http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-battery-life.html

[darktrain]

Here are the numbers from the Avisoft web page

Sony PCM-M10
EIN -120dBu  unweighted, -122 dBu A-weighted

Edirol R-09HR (Mic Gain High) 
EIN - 115dBu unweighted, -118 dBu A-weighted

Edirol R-09HR (Mic Gain Low)
EIN  - 100 dBu unweighted,  -103dBu A-weighted

The test results have a margin of error of + or - 2 dBu
so the Sony is a bit quieter than the R-09HR.  Whether you
can hear this difference depends on your subject, and particularly
the noise level your mic produces.  Loud band, won't hear it. 
Quiet ambience, probably can hear it if you're using a quiet mic.

Looking a bit further, we find:

Sony PCM-M10 clipping level -57dBu

Edirol R-09HR (Mic gain High) clipping level -43dBu

Edirol R-09HR (Mic gain Low) clipping level -22dBu

This means the Sony is pretty likely to clip (or be forced to use
its limiter to avoid clipping) when recording a loud band.
The R-09HR is less likely to clip.

Flintstone

I just ran the m10 last night for metallica going mic in(no pre or bb) with the pad on and using my hlsc-1's(4.7k mod) with absolutely great results, i was in a great spot and it was really loud, the gain was at about 2.5, nice crisp solid recording, no signs of clipping whatsoever, extremely pleased, so much so I am selling the PMD620(which was awesome for running mic in)and taking the M10 for a full time run.

[dbxp]

Thanks flintstone for posting the link. Indeed great EIN for a smaller recorder.

IMHO, -57dBu clipping level is not a disadvantage. It shows that the pre-amp has a solid 50ish dB of gain that can handle dynamic mic's with ease. Similarly, the Sony D50 has -58 dBu of clipping level.

Simply dial down the level control to avoid clipping. It is true that the best EIN is always measured at the maximum gain. But a properly designed amplifier chain has limited noise floor degradation with attenuation right before A/D.

[gmm6797]

Just home from taping Metallica tonigh (as well as others this week) and I have a couple of comments:
* tape over the auto levels button for 2 reasons
   #1 when you hit (or accidentally hit) the button, there is a second or so mute while it switches the record mode)
   #2 the auto levels seems to be pretty horrible sounding
* even if the over lights are not coming on, you could be hitting the 0 (zero) level of peak

Other thoughts:
* I miss the R09hr screen which stays on but very very low, so you can see the levels in the dark better
* a 4hr show and a 3hr show on a practically brand new set of Thomas Dist 2700 mah batteries, and batter meter still shows full

[su6oxone]

* tape over the auto levels button for 2 reasons

Isn't there a hold button on the M10?

* a 4hr show and a 3hr show on a practically brand new set of Thomas Dist 2700 mah batteries, and batter meter still shows full

Impressive!