Topic: attenuant at the mics or recorder?

[willndmb]

here is my situation...
i have (mics) > Littlebox > Sony PCM-M10
the few times i have been able to run it i am running hot or very close to it
my question is basically which is better - to attenuate at the mics via -10db pad OR use the dial on  the side of the M10 to attenuate there?
if it makes a difference i am going xlr in on the lb and the gain is all the way down
thanks for the input

[stevetoney]

I don't know which is better technically, but I know in your situation I'd 100% be flipping the mic switch to give me max recording headroom.  I'd much rather have access to the headroom than be worrying about riding the red line and going back to having watch my recorder like a hawk during a show, but that's just me. 

[Husker Du]

There was a pretty good discussion here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132272.0

[guysonic]

Mic input sensitivity switch is preamp GAIN control, and should always be in LOW for quality and headroom.   I your knob is near the bottom, then you have this set in HIGH, and this is wrong.  Here are my tips for getting the best from this model deck:

TIPS: (For highest quality recording purposes)

Use M10 ONLY set in 24 bit recording mode.  Sample rate is your choice, but suggest using 44.1K sample rate if wanting best CD compatible editing options.

Use M10 ONLY with MIC INPUT sensitivity switch set in "LOW" taping over this switch to not be moved.  "HIGH" setting is way too much 20 dB boosted first stage gain giving inferior audio quality.  Even with very low VU levels, LOW setting gives cleaner more defined 24bit depth audio best boosted in post edit, NOT by using deck in HIGH setting.

Use M10 in full manual (not AUTO, Limiter) record level control mode setting also taping over this switch. 

Wise tact is to always engage HOLD feature so touching buttons do not accidentally stop recording until you're ready to stop the session. 

Do all editing in 24 bit mode, adjusting loudness and other changes desired.  Then as last software edit step convert copy of file to 16 bit if later doing CD storing this copy of file for disc burning purposes.

See taperssection.com M10 comments/tech data GuySonic posted at: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.0;all 

[Walstib62]

Isn't the output of Littlebox a line level signal? If so, then you would want to connect the LB output to the LINE IN of the M10. Then set the M10 input to around 35-50% of max gain, and use LB as your gain fine adjust. If you attenuate using the mic pad, you will be adding noise to the mic output signal.

[stevetoney]

Isn't the output of Littlebox a line level signal? If so, then you would want to connect the LB output to the LINE IN of the M10. Then set the M10 input to around 35-50% of max gain, and use LB as your gain fine adjust. If you attenuate using the mic pad, you will be adding noise to the mic output signal.

...except he said he's got his LB dialed all the way down and he's still riding the red line, so he can't get to 35-50% of max gain (unless you're using mic-in, which I'm confident you're not).

[bhadella]

The littlebox's minimum gain is 6 dB (or 18 dB with the optional +12dB input transformer) paired with typical condensor mics should have plenty of headroom.   I think the issue lies with the settings on the M10. 

[page]

The littlebox's minimum gain is 6 dB (or 18 dB with the optional +12dB input transformer) paired with typical condensor mics should have plenty of headroom.   I think the issue lies with the settings on the M10.

I concur, line in on the M10 is of 7XX proportions (like +26dbu), for there to be no additional gain at the littlebox stage and close to clipping would require an attrociously loud noise of 140db proportions or incorrect settings on the M10 (such as mic-in). Since he can still hear, I'm betting it's the M10.

[willndmb]

i AM running Line In
however at some point my Mic Sens did slide to HI (lesson learned there - gaff it)
but if i am going line in does that switch even affect anything?

EDIT just did a white noise test and the high low had no effect when going line in

[Walstib62]

Something still isn't adding up here. If you are in fact using the line input, you should have no problem. The fact that the M10 input is overly sensitive is the issue. If this continues to be the case, you may need an inline attenuator at the M10 input. You need to be operating your gain settings closer to the middle rather than everthing set at minimum. Good luck.

[page]

i AM running Line In
however at some point my Mic Sens did slide to HI (lesson learned there - gaff it)
but if i am going line in does that switch even affect anything?

EDIT just did a white noise test and the high low had no effect when going line in

Ok, so next set of questions;

What's the configuration of your LB? Did you get input/output trannys? Do you have a high/low gain switch or just the knob? Last, I'm assuming it's with your AKGs.

Another test I'd do (to at least get a better handle on what's going on) is: Take your stereo amp/dac and send a tone through it (say, -10db, maybe -15db). See what you get when you hook up the LB to your fr2le (use a 3.5mm>1/4" jack, only need 1 track). and measure the resulting db reference (and add any gain needed to get near 0). Now, remove the adaptor and try the M10 (after verifying that it's set to line in, and the gain is around 4 on it). You should get significantly less since the fr2le clips around +4db while the M10 when near it's unity gain won't clip until the +20 range. If the signals are the same, then there is something wrong with the M10, if you can't get low enough on the LB to keep the fr2le from clipping, it's the gain structure as I would think the baseline +6db while dailed down would still keep a line signal under the +4db limit.

Something still isn't adding up here. If you are in fact using the line input, you should have no problem. The fact that the M10 input is overly sensitive is the issue. If this continues to be the case, you may need an inline attenuator at the M10 input. You need to be operating your gain settings closer to the middle rather than everthing set at minimum. Good luck.

I can't believe that he's sending that much signal to the M10, that's crazy. 

[stevetoney]

I think from reading your first post that you know this, but the 480b has switchable attenuation (three positions; 0db, +6db and -10db).  The online schematic shows that the switch is on the inside of the mic body.  Perhaps your issue is that your particular 480s are set to highest sensitivity setting, but for rock music you'd obviously want them set for lowest sensitivity.

Does the problem persist when you record with your Busman mics?

(FWIW, I think those that are discussing attenuation earlier in this thread have been referring to the sensitivity switch on the side of the M10, not the switch on the inside of the mic bodies.  My first response to your question suggested that I'd for sure have the mic switch set at lowest sensitivity...but others have pointed out and you've verified that the switch on the M10 does not have any bearing on the Line In function.)

[willndmb]

page
i an not following you
but would this work...
take a -10db white noise file
play it into the LB > fr2le and i SHOULD see the fr2le meter say -4db (because the lb has 6db gain at the lowest setting and don't add any gain via the fr2le)
then replace the fr2le with the m10 and see what i get for a reading there (with the gain dial on the m10 at 4)


then again how could i hook the lb up to a line signal, i would need to turn the power on somehow

[willndmb]

not sure if this helps at all but i ran the white noise from my stereo to m10 (set at 4) and got it to match db wise
switched the m10 for the fr2le (phantom off of course) and had to set the gain at 12:30 to match the level db wise
changing the trim knobs had no effect

EDIT
now i just played the file via speakers and set my mics up in front
1 akg and 1 bm (they are pretty much matched so that was helpful) > LB (48v) > recorders
i got the same results - for the fr2le to match the m10 db wise on the meter i had to have the gain around 12:30

i am wondering if maybe i had a couple of loud shows and everything is fine??

[page]

page
i an not following you
but would this work...
take a -10db white noise file
play it into the LB > fr2le and i SHOULD see the fr2le meter say -4db (because the lb has 6db gain at the lowest setting and don't add any gain via the fr2le)
then replace the fr2le with the m10 and see what i get for a reading there (with the gain dial on the m10 at 4)


then again how could i hook the lb up to a line signal, i would need to turn the power on somehow

1) Yes, that's basically what I'm after.
2) Is the LB set to "All P48 All The Time" or can you turn the power off? (similar question; how would you run a ribbon with it).

not sure if this helps at all but i ran the white noise from my stereo to m10 (set at 4) and got it to match db wise
switched the m10 for the fr2le (phantom off of course) and had to set the gain at 12:30 to match the level db wise
changing the trim knobs had no effect

Trim knobs won't work when you are using TRS jacks. 

I would have expected that to be flipped. Less gain on the fostex and more needed on the M10. I sounds like it's pretending it's a mic signal.