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702 limiter

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noam:
Anyone has extensive experience with recording with the 702 (or 7xx series) with the limiter on at high gain? I had bad experience with the limiter on with the SONY PCM D1, and I wonder if the limiter can cause problems like holes in the sound at sudden loud sounds, etc. Is there a scenario of using it (for acoustic music) and ruining the recording? What happens to loud clapping with the limiter on? On the PCM D1 every loud clap punched a hole in the sound.

Gutbucket:
Other than knowing that Sound Device's limiters are implemented in the analog input stage rather than after the ADC (a good thing which makes them more transparent) and that they are less problematic than many other implementations, I'm not intimately familiar with the behavior of the limiters in their recorders. 

However, the basic principle remains constant-

Some limiters are implemented in a more transparent way than others, yet all of them squash signal dynamics once the signal crosses the threshold.. which is their intended job.  Limiting while recording is a last-ditch safety measure and should be regarded as such.  I'm not suggesting that limiters on a recorder should not be employed. I am suggesting that if the limiter actually has to do what it is designed to do, that indicates a failure of the recordist to set recording levels appropriately.  If you get away with it without bad sonic repercussions, consider yourself fortunate and set your levels lower the next time.

Yes, some recordings benefit from a reduction of dynamic range.  But trying to do that via bumping up against the "safety limiter" at the recorder's input is not an optimal way of doing that, and I'll dare call relying on that method to do so, lazy.

Record with low enough levels so that you have sufficient headroom to encode all expected auditory events (including applause of course, if expected!), then readjust the signal level afterwards as appropriate.  Unless your levels are so low that the electronic noise-floor of your equipment begins to exceed the ambient acoustic noise-floor of the environment in which the recording was made, there is no drawback to doing so.  If using quality equipment at the level of SD gear, there will be more than enough dynamic range available into which the entire musical signal will fit- from the quietest hiss of the empty room to the loudest impulse of the performance peak or audience applause eruption.   If the finished recording would benefit from a reduction in dynamic range, do that afterwards in such a way that you have control over it and can limit (pun) the negative consequences.

Consider it similar to tracking and fading while making the recording.  It's much easier to do, and do well, afterwards.

thunderbolt:
It's worth pointing out that the SD recorders, like their peers, are designed mostly for film dialogue.  Most production sound mixers use limiters.  If the gain structure is set up properly, and the limiter is used as a safety as intended, it is pretty transparent.

noam:

--- Quote from: boltman on January 07, 2017, 02:00:15 AM ---, it is pretty transparent.

--- End quote ---

What does it mean transparent?

Gutbucket:
^ isn't audibly obvious as it squashes the dynamics.  A trained ear may still be able to identify it working, but casual listeners will not.

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