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Author Topic: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?  (Read 11254 times)

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Offline weroflu

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24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« on: September 24, 2010, 11:15:00 AM »
i don't need built in mics, just something small, good a/d conversion, a line input that won't !@# up the signal too much, that will record onto flash cards.

is there anything out there aside from the usual suspects, sony m10, tascam dr series , zoom, etc...

Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2010, 11:50:31 AM »
Sony M10 seems to be the best bet. It fits everything you're looking for plus will run FOREVER on one set of batteries.

With my Tascam DR-07 I could get a little more than a full nights of music off a set of batteries (not enough to run 2 full nights though). With the M10 I've recorded 2 bands a night every day this week since last Saturday. Going to replace the batteries before tonight's show just to be on the safe side.
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Offline Belexes

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2010, 01:27:43 PM »
M10. You can do no wrong.
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Offline rastasean

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2010, 01:34:18 PM »
You say flash cards. There's the microtrack 2 that takes compact flash cards.

Were you wanting compact flash cards for a particular reason?

The recorder the two folks above mentioned take microsdhc cards which could mean "flash" to you.
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2010, 02:57:19 PM »
Get the M10, not the MT2. With the MT2, among other issues, you need to get a special cable made for line in (Sound Pro's sells them) or you will add the dreaded "sprinkler noise" to your recordings when using unbalanced mics and adding gain with the MT. Also the internal battery will need a boost from an external battery if you need long running times.

No reason to get a MT if you don't need the digital in or phantom power.
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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2010, 03:10:46 PM »
The m10 is a good recorder, but the sound quality has not been proven to be superior in comps here. A lot of assumptions have been made.

There is more to a recorder than battery life.

Offline Neilyboy

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2010, 04:19:44 PM »
Another vote for the M10 I have been doing my research around here and elsewhere and I myself am saving up for a new stealth rig which will include an M10.

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Offline rastasean

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2010, 04:31:00 PM »
Get the M10, not the MT2. With the MT2, among other issues, you need to get a special cable made for line in (Sound Pro's sells them) or you will add the dreaded "sprinkler noise" to your recordings when using unbalanced mics and adding gain with the MT. Also the internal battery will need a boost from an external battery if you need long running times.

No reason to get a MT if you don't need the digital in or phantom power.

I wouldn't get the mt2 if it was $50. I was just playing a semantics game. He said flash card as in compact flash and the m10 doesn't take compact flash cards. :-D

my vote is for the m10 since internal mics are not necessary.
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Offline rastasean

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2010, 04:31:29 PM »
The m10 is a good recorder, but the sound quality has not been proven to be superior in comps here. A lot of assumptions have been made.

There is more to a recorder than battery life.

Let us know which one you would recommend.
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2010, 04:45:48 PM »
The m10 is a good recorder, but the sound quality has not been proven to be superior in comps here. A lot of assumptions have been made.

There is more to a recorder than battery life.

That's true, but I don't think most people who are recommending the M10 are saying it sounds better than all the others. At least I'm not claiming it sounds better and I don't think anyone posting in this thread has said that. Most of the good flash recorders sound pretty much the same to my ears, at least when you go line in with a pre.  I can make flawless recordings with my MT1, but it's much more inconvenient and less intuitive to use than the M10, so I would not recommend either of the MT's (unless you need the digital in and don't mind the risk of it locking up).

The M10 has great battery life, a great display, the line in will take a very high level signal without distorting, the mic in is good, the plug in power will adequately run some commonly used mics without a battery box (though not many of the Church ones), and the internal mics (for those who may care) are pretty good.

I also don't think you can go wrong with R-09HR and a few of the other pocket recorders.

Still I think the M10 is gives you the most bang for the buck of all the small pocket flash recorders. That is of course just my opinion, which seems to be shared by quite a few others.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 05:00:03 PM by fmaderjr »
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Offline JasonSobel

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2010, 05:26:53 PM »
I was just playing a semantics game. He said flash card as in compact flash and the m10 doesn't take compact flash cards. :-D

if you want to get technical, "flash memory" or "flash card" does not imply a "Compact Flash Card" or "CF card".
"Flash Memory" is a general term for the type of solid state storage upon which many cards are based, but could be SD, CF, SDHC, SDXC, Memory Stick, USB thumb drives, etc, etc..  it's all "flash memory".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory

Offline rastasean

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2010, 05:38:29 PM »
I was just playing a semantics game. He said flash card as in compact flash and the m10 doesn't take compact flash cards. :-D

if you want to get technical, "flash memory" or "flash card" does not imply a "Compact Flash Card" or "CF card".
"Flash Memory" is a general term for the type of solid state storage upon which many cards are based, but could be SD, CF, SDHC, SDXC, Memory Stick, USB thumb drives, etc, etc..  it's all "flash memory".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory

yes, this is all true.
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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2010, 01:17:26 PM »
Let us know which one you would recommend.

I think it is between the m10 and the r09hr.   They're both excellent.  guysonic says the r09hr sounds slightly better for recording music.  I'm willing to suffer some inconvenience for better sound quality (though in this case, they're both excellent, so that isn't a trade-off).  I'd still like to hear some comps.

For value, the r09 used is very good, as long as the jacks are solid (knock on wood, mine has been okay).

Offline willndmb

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2010, 02:22:26 PM »

I think it is between the m10 and the r09hr.   They're both excellent.  guysonic says the r09hr sounds slightly better for recording music.  I'm willing to suffer some inconvenience for better sound quality (though in this case, they're both excellent, so that isn't a trade-off).  I'd still like to hear some comps.

guy also says the m10 is the best to run mic with plug in power
so what i am saying is that it all depends on your needs and what you plan on doing
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2010, 03:02:49 PM »

I think it is between the m10 and the r09hr.   They're both excellent.  guysonic says the r09hr sounds slightly better for recording music.  I'm willing to suffer some inconvenience for better sound quality (though in this case, they're both excellent, so that isn't a trade-off).  I'd still like to hear some comps.

guy also says the m10 is the best to run mic with plug in power
so what i am saying is that it all depends on your needs and what you plan on doing

Plus whether you could even hear the slight improvement guy found in the HR for recording music. I have both and both sound equally good to me. I like the M10's feature set a bit better and don't care that it has 96 HZ sampling but not 88.2 Hz.

Either one is a great choice and as freelunch says the old R-09 can be good as well. But if you are recording stuff that isn't too loud with the R-09 you definitely benefit from a preamp. It gets noisy at the higher gain settings.
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Offline su6oxone

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2010, 03:22:20 PM »
I've owned the R-09 and R-09HR and would highly recommend the R-09HR.  It doesn't have the greatest build quality or materials but it makes great recordings, is easy to use, and has the line-in jack on the side instead of the top (I found that more convenient when stealthing).  However, if I were to buy a small recorder today, I would most likely get the M10 which seems to be a very solid and well built device. 

Offline rastasean

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2010, 10:22:52 PM »
Let us know which one you would recommend.

I think it is between the m10 and the r09hr.   They're both excellent.  guysonic says the r09hr sounds slightly better for recording music.  I'm willing to suffer some inconvenience for better sound quality (though in this case, they're both excellent, so that isn't a trade-off).  I'd still like to hear some comps.

For value, the r09 used is very good, as long as the jacks are solid (knock on wood, mine has been okay).


Yeah, I think it is between these two as well.

To speak on the 09hr's positive side, edirol CONTINUES to release firmware updates whereas sony never will for the d50 or m10. Just a couple weeks ago, firmware 3.0 was released for the 09hr; most of the new features may not apply to tapers but it is nice to see they haven't forgotten about the recorder.

firmware aside, I think both will work more than adequately for almost anyone. I would call either recorder a win-win.
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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2010, 10:25:28 PM »
A few people have reported m10 issues that needed service.  I haven't heard how that went, but I'm curious.  I remember internal battery issues, and a loose switch or knob.


Offline rastasean

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2010, 10:35:08 PM »
Yes, there have been issues with the clock resetting every time the device is turned on. I do remember someone inquiring how lose the gain knob should be since he thought it was quite lose. Some people are living with resetting the clock and others may return the unit.

When things are mass produced for a very affordable price, quality will suffer and a few bad units will escape into the homes and hands of poor consumers. This is why it is important to buy your unit from an authorized retail store, so you can work with them and the manufacture on a replacement unit.

Has the OP decided on a recorder yet?

 
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Offline weroflu

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2010, 11:31:12 AM »
thanks for narrowing it down to the sony or roland.

i will probably go with sony

one more question...

do any of you also use these recorders as music players? most of my music library is in lossless wma format, i suppose it would be too good if the sony also played wma
lossless. but it kind of sucks to have to get yet another  gadget just to play wma files. i suppose i could go back and convert to wav but it is too much of a hassle.

Offline rastasean

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2010, 12:20:49 PM »
thanks for narrowing it down to the sony or roland.

i will probably go with sony

one more question...

do any of you also use these recorders as music players? most of my music library is in lossless wma format, i suppose it would be too good if the sony also played wma
lossless. but it kind of sucks to have to get yet another  gadget just to play wma files. i suppose i could go back and convert to wav but it is too much of a hassle.

neither the 09hr or the m10 play wma files. Most people here don't care for that format and we mostly listen to flac files. once again, these two recorders don't play those files either.
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Offline weroflu

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2010, 12:59:48 PM »
i stupidly converted everything to wma some years ago. but i guess i could just convert everything to flac in a day or two on a powerful desktop.


http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-PCMM10/B/


just checked out the sony site, apparently the m10 will play .wma files, not sure if this includes wma lossless though...

Offline weroflu

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2010, 02:04:07 PM »
just thinking out loud.

someone should make a little rubber/foam slide-on jecklin for the sony. something like two mousepads glued together and cut to a circular shape and then a little slit cut perfectly to the thickness of the m10 so it will just stick on with friction.

 i think people would buy it. i know the spacing is wrong, but it would provide 'some' separation, and who knows, with the right material/thickness it could even approach some real jecklin results. i offer this idea freely to humanity.

Offline aaronji

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2010, 04:04:40 PM »
I think it is between the m10 and the r09hr.   They're both excellent.  guysonic says the r09hr sounds slightly better for recording music.  I'm willing to suffer some inconvenience for better sound quality (though in this case, they're both excellent, so that isn't a trade-off).  I'd still like to hear some comps.

guysonic's preference was mostly based on the R09HR having an 88.2 kHz sampling option, if I recall correctly...But I think he said he'd choose the M10 for recording at non-88.2 rates.  And I think he was pretty unequivocal (as willndmb mentioned) about the M10's mic in.

Yes, there have been issues with the clock resetting every time the device is turned on. I do remember someone inquiring how lose the gain knob should be since he thought it was quite lose. Some people are living with resetting the clock and others may return the unit.

Any idea if anyone ever returned one due to the clock thing?  Curious what Sony's take on it was (and if they offered a remedy)...

i offer this idea freely to humanity.

Humanity thanks you! :)

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2010, 07:34:35 PM »
i offer this idea freely to humanity.

Humanity thanks you! :)

I think that was mentioned early on, when folks first complained about the separation.. can't believe it hasn't been done yet...  of course I'd never buy one, since they're too easy to make. You could probably make one with a coaster and a few napkins if you're board before a show.

And while I do recall guysonic liking the 88.2 sampling, I also recall him saying the r09hr sounds better line in.

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2010, 11:46:55 PM »
I guess it depends on how you define 'bang for buck' but the new Zoom H1 is perhaps the cheapest recorder that does 24/96.  So that's the buck, but I'm not sure whether the bang has yet been adequately tested by People Who Know.

Offline aaronji

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2010, 01:55:48 PM »
And while I do recall guysonic liking the 88.2 sampling, I also recall him saying the r09hr sounds better line in.

I searched out the original post (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1722494#msg1722494) and it appears to me that neither of us were quite right in our recollection...Rereading it, it seems that the preference was for the R09HR line-in compared to the M10 mic-in, due mostly to some roll-off on the M10 (below 20 Hz) and the 88.2 kHz sampling on the HR. 

It's not clear if that roll-off is also present on the M10's line-in.  It also seems that this choice wasn't really motivated by how they compared sound-wise, as he really didn't record much with the M10 ("After doing most all the intentioned M10 deck electrical bench testing, and one urban ambient recording") and apparently no music...
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 02:01:31 PM by aaronji »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2010, 02:41:06 PM »
i offer this idea freely to humanity.
Humanity thanks you! :)
I think that was mentioned early on, when folks first complained about the separation.. can't believe it hasn't been done yet...  of course I'd never buy one, since they're too easy to make. You could probably make one with a coaster and a few napkins if you're board before a show.

..or a CD case from the merch table, which was the first thing I tried when toying with a simple mic baffle back in '06 for the original R-09 internals.  Details are here (1st two posts in the thread): Small ball baffle for internal mics.  The CD case / green foam ball gave way to the simple but effective cardboard cut-out. 





You'd think some manufacturers would offer a simple snap-on baffle as an option just like they do windscreens, since it would benefit most any recorder with internal omni's used for typical musician's practice applications for which these machines are primarily targeted, but as Freelunch notes it's easy enough to roll you own.

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2010, 02:56:05 PM »
Forgot to mention that Guysonic's own Sonic Studio DSM mics can be powered directly by the M10 but not the 09HR (I think, correct me if I'm wrong).  That is a distinct advantage if using his DSM mics and aiming for a small-as-possible rig.  Makes no difference if running other mics, but should be taken into consideration as a bias on the overall recorder recommendations.

If you're reading this, thanks for the bench testing Guy!
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2010, 06:50:15 PM »
I guess it depends on how you define 'bang for buck' but the new Zoom H1 is perhaps the cheapest recorder that does 24/96.  So that's the buck, but I'm not sure whether the bang has yet been adequately tested by People Who Know.

Ozpeter, I know that you know more than I do about recording from reading your posts, but why the love for Zoom recorders? They do have good internal mics, but I think they leave a lot to be desired for someone who is going to use externals. For one thing the fact that most of them will distort if set to low and you have to turn the levels below 100 to keep the meters under 0 dB is a critical flaw (and I think I read that the H1 does have this flaw). Even though the music may need to be very loud for this to be an issue, I wouldn't want to have to worry about it.

IMO, the H1 is not enough cheaper than good small recorders to possibly give the most bang for the buck.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 11:31:07 AM by fmaderjr »
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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2010, 07:05:05 PM »
I guess it depends what you are going to record.  If it's very high level music, then you need to choose something suitable for that particular purpose.

The Zoom H2 external mic input is a disaster but the H1 appears - from online samples - to be at least usable.

Offline weroflu

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Re: 24/96 best bang for the buck recorder?
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2010, 03:32:01 PM »
i'm not sure if this has been covered elsewhere, but i searched and couldn't find the answer.

how much gain is available on the m10 mic preamp?

 

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