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Author Topic: Oddball microphone techniques - part 1  (Read 65159 times)

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Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #360 on: December 31, 2017, 09:33:21 AM »
Kyle and Lee, thanks for eq tips. I made the second attempt with the Mule recording.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1MLNWhfUh9eTgUgE22V2rcJH6QsG_Zpch?usp=sharing

I finished recording of John Medeski too. It was great concert. I am sorry, I have no pictures. My camera is weak and when there is no good light, the pictures are blurry. It was very crowded and the soundman allowed me to set up at the end of room. I think, I was 9 feets from the back wall. It is my favorite club, there was good sound even though i was at the end of the room.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1HtSA1w-sRgWejMTGAd6rbdtFUISQwzXP?usp=sharing

Lee, thank you for your documents, it is great.

I have one theoretical question. It is just theoretical little thing. When I mixed the rear mic in M/S, I was thinking about the following. The sounds, that are coming from the sides, are the most identical parts in front and rear mic. When making an M/S mix, the resulting stereo track will have these identical parts highlighted only in one channel (right or left).
If I understand well, the aim for mixing front and rear is to have as much different signals as possible. We can influence the level difference by polar patterns. And we can influence time difference by spacing. But time difference for sounds coming from sides is small (zero difference at 90deg, maximal difference at 0deg). Maybe we can increase the time difference for sides too. We can setup front and rear mic in coincident configuration. And we will make the time difference in post by delaying rear channel. Then we will have maximal time difference for all directions.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #361 on: December 31, 2017, 12:50:46 PM »
Hey K, thanks for the links, I'll give a listen when I get a chance (will be out for a few days).

To be clear for anyone else following along, Kuba e is talking about the stereo mix-down technique of using Mid/Side matrixing on the front and rear facing center microphone channels-  Assigning the front facing directional microphone channel as Mid and the rear-facing channel as Side, even though the rear-facing microphone is not a figure-8 and not coincident with the front-facing microphone.   Using a Mid/Side matrix in this way is a simple way of avoiding mixing the rear-facing channel in as monophonic information which would tend to clutter up the center stereo image.  Ideally we'd have stereophonic rear-facing ambient mics, feeding different information to the Left and Right mixdown channels, resulting in a more open, wide sounding ambience which isn't monophonically clumped in the center competing with the stuff from in front.  Instead we're mixing in that rear-facing ambient information in opposite polarity to Left and Right.

There are other, perhaps more appropriate ways of doing this as well.  The basic idea is to "stereoize" the rear facing channel in some way, preferably in a way which doesn't produce some sort of unwanted artifacts and plays nicely with the Left/Right omni channels and the front-facing center channel.

Sure, try playing with delay on the rear-facing channel, either with or without the Mid/Side matrix. You might also try delaying the rear-channel feed to the Left channel slightly differently than the feed to the Right channel, or EQing them in a slightly different but complementary way with alternating dips and peaks on each side.  All those are various "pseudo-stereo" techniques which generate two different signals from the single monophonic channel.  This is one area where I need to do more exploration.  To bring some of the previous discussion back in at this point, the key here is decorrelateing the single monophonic rear-facing signal to produce two (or more) similar-sounding yet different signals to send to the Left and Right channels of the mix. 

More on this will go into the section on mixing strategies.
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made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #362 on: December 31, 2017, 12:53:34 PM »
Found a mistake on page 8 of the OMT booklet in the section on non-recommended setups using a blumlein center pair.  The second illustration on that page was correct, but the text was not.  It has now been fixed and updated.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Moke

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #363 on: December 31, 2017, 02:48:28 PM »
Here is an oddball, for sure, that worked well.
Lets call it the Invisible Rig
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=184795.0

HRTF stereo and 22cm@90º in Set-It_and_Forget-It_Bag on lap, from first row center.

Some issues, as this was first time effort. The technqique proved solid.
The problems were on-stage presence, not due to technique; a surprise tambourine played in close proximity; and an open mic hum/pa induced 60hz cycle.
The 60hz cycle, buried with a cliff-face steep HPF pass at 60z; so no detail below 60hz.
The tambourine,... suprise,... says the conductor,... look what i brought to beat on. (and you thought that was exclusive to w00ks!)
Sent From My Craftsman Garage Door Opener

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #364 on: December 31, 2017, 03:52:43 PM »
Kyle and Lee, thanks for eq tips. I made the second attempt with the Mule recording.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1MLNWhfUh9eTgUgE22V2rcJH6QsG_Zpch?usp=sharing

I finished recording of John Medeski too. It was great concert. I am sorry, I have no pictures. My camera is weak and when there is no good light, the pictures are blurry. It was very crowded and the soundman allowed me to set up at the end of room. I think, I was 9 feets from the back wall. It is my favorite club, there was good sound even though i was at the end of the room.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1HtSA1w-sRgWejMTGAd6rbdtFUISQwzXP?usp=sharing

Lee, thank you for your documents, it is great.

I have one theoretical question. It is just theoretical little thing. When I mixed the rear mic in M/S, I was thinking about the following. The sounds, that are coming from the sides, are the most identical parts in front and rear mic. When making an M/S mix, the resulting stereo track will have these identical parts highlighted only in one channel (right or left).
If I understand well, the aim for mixing front and rear is to have as much different signals as possible. We can influence the level difference by polar patterns. And we can influence time difference by spacing. But time difference for sounds coming from sides is small (zero difference at 90deg, maximal difference at 0deg). Maybe we can increase the time difference for sides too. We can setup front and rear mic in coincident configuration. And we will make the time difference in post by delaying rear channel. Then we will have maximal time difference for all directions.
kuba I downloaded the Medeski. Haven't had time to listen yet, but will report back with my opinion. We recorded Twiddle and Marcus King Band last night at Palace Theater ALbany NY using OMT 100cm spaced omni(AKGck22) with ck3 hypers crossed at 60 degrees for the mid. will post pics and show to LMA soon.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline noahbickart

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #365 on: January 02, 2018, 04:50:49 PM »
Spaced omnis from a Phish OTS might seem odd, but seem to be perfect, especially on headphones. Please tell me what you think.

Schoeps mk3 AB @ 60cm
16 bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=596946
24 bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=596947
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10
Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> Adcom SLC 505> Marantz Ma500 (x2)> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-400
Office Playback: Grace m903> AKG k701

Offline heathen

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #366 on: January 02, 2018, 06:17:17 PM »
Spaced omnis from a Phish OTS might seem odd, but seem to be perfect, especially on headphones. Please tell me what you think.

Schoeps mk3 AB @ 60cm
16 bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=596946
24 bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=596947
Thanks for the heads up...downloading now (along with your other new years run seeds).
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | CA-14 omnis | AT853 cards | Line Audio CM3s | AKG 460/ck61 | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #367 on: January 03, 2018, 12:04:59 PM »
Thanks to you all for the links to your recordings!  I have some listening to do.

kuba, can you identify which files contain which microphone positions?  It's not clear to me which is which by the file names.  As we've now hit 25 pages, I'll lock this thread after you post that information and start a continuation thread.  I've figured the focus of the follow-up thread would primarily be OMT mixing and post production, yet I find there are still a few microphone setup variations I want to experiment with-


I went back and listened to a couple of recordings I made indoors in a medium-sized music-club type place recently and decided I may change my OMT recommendation for reverberant or otherwise difficult rooms.  I'd recorded Magpie Salute on a Friday and Marcus King band on a Sunday at the same place, from the same position, using two different setups.  For Magpie I used the 4-channel "tough room OMT setup" without omnis, described on page 2 of the booklet.  For Marcus King I used my reference 6-channel OMT setup, modified slightly by angling the supercards forward +/- 45 degrees instead of having them pointed 180 degrees apart as in a standard OCT setup.  Granted not all extraneous variables were held constant- the biggest one being the sound in the room was mixed considerably better for Marcus King Band.  I also used different microphones- for Magpie Salute I used a pair of Microtech Gefell M210 supercardioids at +/- 45 degrees, along with a Mid/Side center pair consisting of a MG M94 cardioid + Naiant X-8S.  That setup had the microphones spaced somewhat less widely yet with the center pair pushed out in front somewhat more.  For Marcus King I used my now standard 6-channel all-miniature-DPA setup, with the DPA supercards somewhat wider and with the center mic less far out in front, forming a flatter central triangle.   I need to do more tests in small rooms to confirm, but the standard 6-channel setup with the minor modification of angling the supercards forward +/- 45 degrees was far superior this time around and may end up being the recommended "tough room OMT setup".

That got me thinking about what variant I think I'll try next- Instead of trying to place the Naiant X-8S figure-8's coincident with the omnis to make them into Mid/Side Strauss-Packet pairs and gain control over their fore/aft directionality (as indicated in a few of the "not-yet tested setups" in the booklet), I'll instead place them coincident with the sideways facing supercardioids.  In that way I'll gain the ability to steer the side-facing OCT supercards towards the front or back rather than the omnis.

I think that should make for some interesting tests.  In a practical sense it will also be far easier to setup and run for a few reasons  1) Although not overly large, the X-8S are relatively heavy, and are far larger than the miniature DPA omnis.  I cannot support them along with the wide omnis at full extension using the lightweight telescopic TV antenna arms I'm currently using as an adjustable mic-bar. I can support them at the mid-way points where the sideways-facing supercardioids are located however.  Also, like the supercards, the bi-directionals are more wind-sensitive than the omnis and require more extensive wind protection.  I can put the miniature-supercard + X-8S Mid/Side pair inside a single Sure A81WS windscreen and support that in the mid-way out position, while the omnis at the far ends only require a small foam screen.

Here's a drawing of it, which I'll work into the OMT booklet at some point-
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #368 on: January 03, 2018, 07:23:11 PM »
Spaced omnis from a Phish OTS might seem odd, but seem to be perfect, especially on headphones. Please tell me what you think.

Schoeps mk3 AB @ 60cm
16 bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=596946
24 bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=596947

Diggin' it through the 'phones Noah, especially with a touch of EQ and comp in VLC- primarily a slight tilt up towards the HF end across the spectrum and a midrange presence bump centered at 3kHz - standard omni EQ stuff for the most part.  A good example of why the omnis form the foundation I build upon.  Who's X/Y setup centered below the omnis on your tree in the photo?  May be fun to play with combining the two.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline heathen

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #369 on: January 03, 2018, 11:44:22 PM »
Sorry if this has already been covered, but I didn't notice it in the (excellent) summary pdfs...what's the minimum spacing for a pair of "outrigger" omnis used in conjunction with a central near-coincident (specifically DIN or ORTF, say) pair of cards in order to avoid phase issues when mixing all four together?
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | CA-14 omnis | AT853 cards | Line Audio CM3s | AKG 460/ck61 | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #370 on: January 04, 2018, 05:42:21 AM »
kuba, can you identify which files contain which microphone positions? 
I am sorry for the confusion.

Mic configuration was :
left+right: 2 omnis (ca11), spacing 130cm
front+rear: 2 cards (nak300), spacing 40 cm

I renamed files. Original files are "original_omni.flac" and "original_front(left)_rear(right)". And two attempts of mix are "final1_omni+front.flac", "final2_omni+front+rear.flac". Rear mic was mixed in Mid/Side. In Mule folder is also sample of single pair MBHO, cards, din for comparsion.

I listened a lot to the oddball recordings. But I cannot hear how they were mixed up. For example, how much was added the front microphone or how the rear microphone influenced the resulting sound. I understand, every recording is different, and everyone has to judge it individually. But I do not have a trained hearing, and if I can hear ​​how a final recording is comming up in gradual steps, it would be a great help to have rough idea. If you make some example of the recording in individual steps, it would be a very useful for beginners like me. It does not have to be this sample recording that I sent. It can be anything that will be a good example.

Spaced omnis from a Phish OTS might seem odd, but seem to be perfect, especially on headphones. Please tell me what you think.
The omni sounds superb. I enjoy the recording!

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #371 on: January 04, 2018, 10:11:18 AM »
Hey heathen.  TL;DR- Get as much as you can, shooting for 3' minimum, but don't sweat it if you can't get that much.

I like 3' minimum spacing on the omnis when used by themselves, and generally use that as a starting point.  Spacing is more critical for a stereo pair of omnis alone, where they are required to "do everything" on their own including producing a well-balanced soundstage, and in some cases 3' might be a bit much for a pair of omnis by themselves.

With the addition of center mics I prefer to go wider than that when possible, generally around 5'-6' total, which is about as wide as I can go with my setup from a single stand.  Omni spacing in these OMT setups is not rigidly defined, but practically you'll usually want to get as much spacing as you can manage.  The addition of mics in the center generally eliminates the potential problem of going over-wide since the center mics will fill any "hole-in-the-middle" problem.  And actually, an omni spacing which would tend to create a "hole in the middle" becomes an advantage in this case, since it frees up space in soundstage for the center mics to fill. 

Here are a few tricks to maximize the spacing you can get with whatever bar you are using-
Point the omnis sideways, each facing away from the other.  You can probably gain a few inches additional spacing at minimum by using the length of the mic bodies and their position in the mounts to extend the capsules a bit further out to either side.  This also helps in that the slight high-frequency directionality of most omnis on-axis comes into play creating a bit of additional level difference at high-frequencies.  Similarly, if you cannot get as much spacing as you'd like and have sub-cardioids with good extended bass response, use them pointed directly to either side to take advantage of their level-difference while retaining an overall omnidirectional pattern sensitivity of the pair in combination.

It's not just about avoiding problematic phase interactions in the mix, but also about how the imaging and ambient content works together.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #372 on: January 04, 2018, 10:26:02 AM »
Hi kuba.  Thanks for the clarification on the files.  It can be very difficult to ID the component channels by ear and on a brief first listen I was second guessing what was what.

I plan to explore mixing strategies in the new thread and hope to post examples as you mention, building a mix step by step.  That way we can discuss the best order in which to build the mix and what to consider at each step, with examples of what to listen for.


And with that, I think it's now time to finally lock this thread.   I'll post a link to the new one here once I get it started..
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone techniques
« Reply #373 on: January 06, 2018, 03:37:34 PM »
Continuation thread here- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=184876.msg2251211#msg2251211

Confirmation last-night that OMT can rock the small club!  Details in the new thread..
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

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