Topic: Oade modSBM-1 discussion

[Brian Skalinder]

there are many a/d converters that are capable of 24 bit, although none as small as the SBM-1.

Just for clarity's sake, since one could interpret this as indicating the SBM-1 outputs 24-bits:  the SBM-1 does not output 24-bits.

[Ray76]

there are many a/d converters that are capable of 24 bit, although none as small as the SBM-1.

Just for clarity's sake, since one could interpret this as indicating the SBM-1 outputs 24-bits:  the SBM-1 does not output 24-bits.

Good point Skalinder. The oades DID a mod that allowed an output of 20 bits, which of course was truncated down by the DATS to 16. However, the A/D chip that Doug used to do the actual mod is no longer on the Market, neither in SONY America Or Europe.

Teddy

[detroit lightning]

ahh...it's starting to come together.

thank you all for the info

can't wait until some reviews start coming in on this thing...

[Ray76]

ahh...it's starting to come together.

thank you all for the info

can't wait until some reviews start coming in on this thing...

no problem buddy.

[Brian Skalinder]

Good point Skalinder. The oades DID a mod that allowed an output of 20 bits, which of course was truncated down by the DATS to 16. However, the A/D chip that Doug used to do the actual mod is no longer on the Market, neither in SONY America Or Europe.

Huh...never heard about that one - which mod was that?  I take it not one of the commonly available ones he had listed on the Oade site while they were still performing SBM-1 mods.  Interesting...

[Ray76]

Oade called their line stage mod a "24 bit mod", but it doesn't transmit 24 bits. It produces a 24 bit signal, then dithers down to 20 bit, which DAT decks then take further down to 16.
(thanks Nick)
A couple of folks on the oade site talk about having 24 bit SBM1s....

[Brian Skalinder]

Oade called their line stage mod a "24 bit mod", but it doesn't transmit 24 bits. It produces a 24 bit signal, then dithers down to 20 bit, which DAT decks then take further down to 16.

Per the manual, the stock SBM-1 ADC creates a 24-bit signal and then employs the SBM process to dither down to 16-bit for output.  My understanding of the Oade "line-stage" mod is that it upgraded analog components only and did NOT change the ADC, and therefore, it, too, only outputs 16-bits, not 20.

[Brian Skalinder]

Oade called their line stage mod a "24 bit mod", but it doesn't transmit 24 bits. It produces a 24 bit signal, then dithers down to 20 bit, which DAT decks then take further down to 16.

Per the manual, the stock SBM-1 ADC creates a 24-bit signal and then employs the SBM process to dither down to 16-bit for output. My understanding of the Oade "line-stage" mod is that it upgraded analog components only and did NOT change the ADC, and therefore, it, too, only outputs 16-bits, not 20.

And...perhaps the manual isn't entirely clear, as Mic D referenced this info from the Oade Bros old board...which in turn was sourced from a Sony rep:

Snagged from the oade archives...

This was how the Sony technical support rep I just got off the phone
with explains the SBM A/D used in all their products carrying that
identifier in simple terms. This is using simplified explanations,
so computer geeks, please overlook the obvious generalizations.

" The SBM initially quantitizes the analog signal into 24bit data and
then through a noise shaping filter which is the core of the SBM
process. First it analyzes the entire waveform and identifies bytes
of noise information it finds in the audible bandwidth that it
captures until it reaches 4 bits worth of this information. This 4
bits of information is then cut out completely. The remaining 20
bits of data are then reintegrated, or dithered, into the 16 bit
word length."

But the bottom line, I believe, is that Oade Bros did NOT modify the ADC at all - only the line-in analog stage.

[Ray76]

No they actually did, replaced the stock SBM-1 ADC with a different(though still sony) chip. Asked Doug himself a while back. wouldnt give me the name of the chip of course...At the time he was still doing partial mods to the SBMs IE upgrading the Opamps in the signal path, but not complete mods like he did before involving upgrading the adc..

As to what the replacement of the chip did for word length, etc..I have no idea. I do that he did in fact replace the ADC when the parts were still available.

He said he had one more of that particular chip in, but had to use it for repairs or something...You know how Doug is..ever cryptic...

[Brian Skalinder]

No they actually did, replaced the stock SBM-1 ADC with a different(though still sony) chip. Asked Doug himself a while back. wouldnt give me the name of the chip of course...At the time he was still doing partial mods to the SBMs IE upgrading the Opamps in the signal path, but not complete mods like he did before involving upgrading the adc..

As to what the replacement of the chip did for word length, etc..I have no idea. I do that he did in fact replace the ADC when the parts were still available.

He said he had one more of that particular chip in, but had to use it for repairs or something...You know how Doug is..ever cryptic...

It wouldn't surprise me if Doug tinkered around with swapping out ADC chips in a unit or two for kicks.  But for production, it would surprise me.  So...just to make sure I'm clear:  you're suggesting the commonly available line-stage modSBM-1 replaced the ADC chip?

As in the one that used to be described on the Oade website as The fourth [mod] is a complete line stage rebuild which dramatically improves the sense of depth and detail in the SBM-1?

As in the same mods he offered as the one you're selling in the Yard Sale?

[Ray76]

No they actually did, replaced the stock SBM-1 ADC with a different(though still sony) chip.

It wouldn't surprise me if Doug tinkered around with swapping out ADC chips in a unit or two for kicks.  But for production, it would surprise me.  So...just to make sure I'm clear:  you're suggesting the commonly available line-stage modSBM-1 replaced the ADC chip?

As in the one that used to be described on the Oade website as The fourth [mod] is a complete line stage rebuild which dramatically improves the sense of depth and detail in the SBM-1?

As in the same mods he offered as the one you're selling in the Yard Sale?

No, I think that one is what folks refer to as the "24 Bit mod" over on oade...I dont know much about it though. The one I have is the line stage rebuild and coax mod, which, to my knowledge , dont require messing with the ADC at all. Details from Doug were sketchy at best...But when I asked him what could be done to SBM1s , he said he could partially mod units(line stage upgrade and coax) but that the full gamut couldnt be done due to the inavailability of the ADC chip he used......Mine is only a wmod/ signal path upgrade..
If someone has clarification, id be glad to hear it...

[dmonterisi]

fyi, here is google's cached version of the old Oade page describing the 4 upgrades doug offered to the mod sbm1.  NB that none of them references replacing the a>d converter.  i've attached a pdf of the page.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:-hoZ2JpKwq0J:www.oade.com/audiocenter/upgradesbm1.html+oade+sony+sbm-1+upgrades&hl=en

The Sony SBM-1 , is a fine convertor. It is our first choice for in the field A/D conversion. We offer four performance upgrades for this unit.
The first involves replacing the mic preamp circuit. This upgrade is similar to our D7/8 mic input upgrade. It allows for a higher input level before overload and lowers the noise floor, producing a cleaner recording with less hiss. We charge $125.00 for this service.

The second is a Digital I/O upgrade which provides a coax digital output cable. We use the 7 pin cable end to provide a passive 7 pin to Coax "y" adapter for use with the D3/7/8 or in the second Digital I/O port on the SBM-1. The end result is a sturdy 7 pin to RCA "y" Digi I/O cable and a standard coax output on the SBM-1 all for only $150.00.

The third is a line input upgrade which increases the line input gain stage to allow for line in recording with mics that have SLIGHTLY less output than needed for line level input. This upgrade only increases gain. We charge $50.00 for this one.

The fourth is a complete line stage rebuild which dramatically improves the sense of depth and detail in the SBM-1. An additional 6 dB of gain is available at your request, we recommend this only if you are NOT using an external preamp. We disable the mic preamp for this upgrade as the stock chips use too much power. We charge $250.00 for this service. We can do this upgrade with the Mic Input upgrade or either of the first two. There is no discount for combining upgrades.

[dmonterisi]

from this thread

http://www.oade.com/cgi-bin/miva?Forum/technology/showmsg.mv+message=6166

"The line stage mod simply changes the equalization to provide a
warmer sound with cetain mics."
 The line stage rebuild actually improves detail dramatically by
improving the detail in the analog signal presented to the A/D chip.
This is not EQ or any other form of coloration, it is simply an
audible improvement in signal clarity. The SBM-1's AD converter
does sound warm and natural, like most Sony studio gear. The bit
mapping done by the Sony 45 bit DSP chips does not color the
signal, it reduces low level distortion with SBM dither and this
allows 16 bit data to resolve nearly as much detail as 20 bit data.

 Sorry, I am so slammed with work, I do not have time to go in to
more detail, Studio Geek's post along with this one , I hope, will
clear things up...peace...>Doug

this is studio_geek's post referenced by Doug:

http://www.oade.com/cgi-bin/miva?Forum/technology/showmsg.mv+message=6142

 Most DAT decks only record 16 bits, but a lot of 16 bit AD
converters are 24 bit capable. The SBM-1 uses a 24 bit AD chip to
provide data for the 24 bit DSP chip. This DSP chip applies SBM to
the 24 bit data, then outputs 16 bit data that sounds like 20 to 24
bit recordings. Some tapers call Doug's SBM-1 upgrade a 24 bit mod,
but the SBM can only output 16 bit data, maybe it's near 24 bit
sound is why.  I asked Doug about making the SBM-1 output 24 bit
data and he said he did not do that, I doubt any 24 bit output
SBM-1's exist. The line stage rebuild disable the stock mic preamps,
due to power restrictions, but you can run the modified SBM-1's
internal mic preamps, if you also have the mic preamp mod done.

[Brian Skalinder]

No, I think that one is what folks refer to as the "24 Bit mod" over on oade...I dont know much about it though. The one I have is the line stage rebuild and coax mod, which, to my knowledge , dont require messing with the ADC at all. Details from Doug were sketchy at best...But when I asked him what could be done to SBM1s , he said he could partially mod units(line stage upgrade and coax) but that the full gamut couldnt be done due to the inavailability of the ADC chip he used......Mine is only a wmod/ signal path upgrade..
If someone has clarification, id be glad to hear it...

We've been through this before.  The "24-bit" mod IS the line stage mod.  Just a misnomer due to the labelling of the box.  See this thread and note the absence of any indication that Doug mods the ADC chip in his cached pages describing his SBM-1 mods.

[Ray76]

fyi, here is google's cached version of the old Oade page describing the 4 upgrades doug offered to the mod sbm1.  NB that none of them references replacing the a>d converter.  i've attached a pdf of the page.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:-hoZ2JpKwq0J:www.oade.com/audiocenter/upgradesbm1.html+oade+sony+sbm-1+upgrades&hl=en

The Sony SBM-1 , is a fine convertor. It is our first choice for in the field A/D conversion. We offer four performance upgrades for this unit.
The first involves replacing the mic preamp circuit. This upgrade is similar to our D7/8 mic input upgrade. It allows for a higher input level before overload and lowers the noise floor, producing a cleaner recording with less hiss. We charge $125.00 for this service.

The second is a Digital I/O upgrade which provides a coax digital output cable. We use the 7 pin cable end to provide a passive 7 pin to Coax "y" adapter for use with the D3/7/8 or in the second Digital I/O port on the SBM-1. The end result is a sturdy 7 pin to RCA "y" Digi I/O cable and a standard coax output on the SBM-1 all for only $150.00.

The third is a line input upgrade which increases the line input gain stage to allow for line in recording with mics that have SLIGHTLY less output than needed for line level input. This upgrade only increases gain. We charge $50.00 for this one.

The fourth is a complete line stage rebuild which dramatically improves the sense of depth and detail in the SBM-1. An additional 6 dB of gain is available at your request, we recommend this only if you are NOT using an external preamp. We disable the mic preamp for this upgrade as the stock chips use too much power. We charge $250.00 for this service. We can do this upgrade with the Mic Input upgrade or either of the first two. There is no discount for combining upgrades.

Thats good info Damon,. thanks. I have no idea what he is talking about then...He clearly mentioned "replacing the stock ADC with a different version  that wasnt available anymore"
and that due to that problem he would do a line stage rebuild/upgrade but thats all he could do.
I had no idea what other options were out there so I said, ok....hmm....This is interesting..

[Ray76]

No, I think that one is what folks refer to as the "24 Bit mod" over on oade...I dont know much about it though. The one I have is the line stage rebuild and coax mod, which, to my knowledge , dont require messing with the ADC at all. Details from Doug were sketchy at best...But when I asked him what could be done to SBM1s , he said he could partially mod units(line stage upgrade and coax) but that the full gamut couldnt be done due to the inavailability of the ADC chip he used......Mine is only a wmod/ signal path upgrade..
If someone has clarification, id be glad to hear it...

We've been through this before.  The "24-bit" mod IS the line stage mod.  Just a misnomer due to the labelling of the box.  See this thread and note the absence of any indication that Doug mods the ADC chip in his cached pages describing his SBM-1 mods.

Im quoting the man himself when I make references to the mod and what he had to say about it. I see the thread, but what I heard from Doug was most certainly in reference to the ADC and the lack of availability for the chip he used to replace it...And apparently seperate from anything mentioned on this site or oade...Who knows..

He did indeed say that the mod done to my SBM1 was a line stage rebuild. So I dont know what other mod he is talking about.
Ah well....Doesnt matter.

[Brian Skalinder]

Im quoting the man himself when I make references to the mod and what he had to say about it. I see the thread, but what I heard from Doug was most certainly in reference to the ADC and the lack of availability for the chip he used to replace it...And apparently seperate from anything mentioned on this site or oade...Who knows..

He did indeed say that the mod done to my SBM1 was a line stage rebuild. So I dont know what other mod he is talking about.
Ah well....Doesnt matter.

Ah...but it does matter, especially if incorrect or unsubstantiated info is passed on.  For example...

The oades DID a mod that allowed an output of 20 bits, which of course was truncated down by the DATS to 16. However, the A/D chip that Doug used to do the actual mod is no longer on the Market, neither in SONY America Or Europe.

This suggests an ADC mod is/was available.  I don't know of a single modSBM-1  in the taper community that outputs 20- or 24-bits.  Do you?

Oade called their line stage mod a "24 bit mod", but it doesn't transmit 24 bits. It produces a 24 bit signal, then dithers down to 20 bit, which DAT decks then take further down to 16.

This is just plain incorrect.  See my follow-up posts that quote the SBM-1 manual and a quote from a Sony rep for how the SBM-1 takes the 24-bit signal and outputs 16-bits (not 20 as you note above).

A couple of folks on the oade site talk about having 24 bit SBM1s....

I'm curious to see what these folks have to say - please provide links to the discussions?

[dmonterisi]

I am betting that the chips that Doug was referring to as currently unavailable are the specific opamps that he used to modify the line stage...

[neutrino]

Sorry to pull this thread further off discussion, but I do have to say that I personally own two Oade modded SBM-1's and both of them have had the ADC chip replaced. I don't know what the replacement ADC was due to the Oades scratching off the markings on the top of the chip.
dB-

[Return of Blowhole]

I am betting that the chips that Doug was referring to as currently unavailable are the specific opamps that he used to modify the line stage...

And I am betting that Ray is just a freaking retard.

[Brian Skalinder]

Sorry to pull this thread further off discussion, but I do have to say that I personally own two Oade modded SBM-1's and both of them have had the ADC chip replaced. I don't know what the replacement ADC was due to the Oades scratching off the markings on the top of the chip.

Very interesting.  Sure it's not the op amps?  Any chance you're willing / able to post pics?  This would be the first I've seen or heard of Doug modifying the ADC chip (aside from Ray's aforementioned posts, of course).  Interesting!

[Ray76]

Ah...but it does matter, especially if incorrect or unsubstantiated info is passed on.  For example...

That was indeed, incorrect. My apologies.

This suggests an ADC mod is/was available.  I don't know of a single modSBM-1  in the taper community that outputs 20- or 24-bits.  Do you?

I do not.

Oade called their line stage mod a "24 bit mod", but it doesn't transmit 24 bits. It produces a 24 bit signal, then dithers down to 20 bit, which DAT decks then take further down to 16.

This is just plain incorrect.  See my follow-up posts that quote the SBM-1 manual and a quote from a Sony rep for how the SBM-1 takes the 24-bit signal and outputs 16-bits (not 20 as you note above).

not my quote, but a quote of a quote.

I'm curious to see what these folks have to say - please provide links to the discussions?

looking for it. I couldve sworn it was on Oade..Maybe Dat Heads...Saw at least two references to this "24 Bit" Mod SBM1...at any rate, ill keep looking.

Teddy

[neutrino]

It's not the opamps. I do have the schematic for the SBM-1 and I know the location of the opamps and the ADC which are located on seperate circuit boards. I can post a pic of the boards tomorrow.
dB-

[Ray76]

It's not the opamps. I do have the schematic for the SBM-1 and I know the location of the opamps and the ADC which are located on seperate circuit boards. I can post a pic of the boards tomorrow.
dB-

cool man, thanks.

[willndmb]

there are many a/d converters that are capable of 24 bit, although none as small as the SBM-1.

Just for clarity's sake, since one could interpret this as indicating the SBM-1 outputs 24-bits:  the SBM-1 does not output 24-bits.

thats how i read it
even though i know nothing about the smb1

since we are on the tpoic kinda--if a product is made for taping such as the smb1, why does it need to be modded?
i understand why the ua-5 did but some of the other oade mods i haave rean about i don't know what the difference is

[macdaddy]

afaik - all references to a 24bitoademodsbm1 are innacurate. i think it started when people were trying to differentiate between the third and fourth mod. the former adresses the brickwall issue, and the latter is a rebuild of  the linestage path, replacing the opamps, rca female jacks (i think) and some other stuff in that chain...

but it was never a 24 bit mod. i understood that the electronics in the unit itself did not allow for 20 or 24bit output, and that is why a simple chip swap didnt do the trick...

neutrino's sbm1's are the first ones i have heard of actually having a different chip...

i have seen talk, however, of "toddmod" sbm1 units (several years ago), but know nothing about what those mods entail...


_____

there are many a/d converters that are capable of 24 bit, although none as small as the SBM-1.

Just for clarity's sake, since one could interpret this as indicating the SBM-1 outputs 24-bits:  the SBM-1 does not output 24-bits.

thats how i read it
even though i know nothing about the smb1

since we are on the tpoic kinda--if a product is made for taping such as the smb1, why does it need to be modded?
i understand why the ua-5 did but some of the other oade mods i haave rean about i don't know what the difference is

mainly to improve the quality of the components used...

[nickgregory]

the fact that they were called 24 bit mods were imo mainly because of the way Oade labeled the boxes...I dont think there is anymore to it...and I have not ever seen anything documented that Doug changes anything but the opamps in the analog signal path

[macdaddy]

aha!

i had mine modded later (the mod wasnt called that), and i didnt get a new box. hell, my unit doesnt even have a sticker/badge on it...

[Tim]

since we are on the tpoic kinda--if a product is made for taping such as the smb1, why does it need to be modded?
i understand why the ua-5 did but some of the other oade mods i haave rean about i don't know what the difference is

the sbm-1 wasn't "made for taping"... it was an accesory to Sony's walkman sized DAT recorders... the target audience being ENG and film production, not tapers - though there is some corssover in the markets

the line stage mod warmed up the sound of the sbm1 in a way that many found pleasing, it also adds more depth and width to the soundstage

the coax mod allowed the sbm1 to be used with a non-sony walkman DAT, like the dap1 or hhb


I'm with the group that says Doug was not changing the ADC in these units... maybe he was but it would certainly be news to me as he never advertised that service. the line stage mod that got the misnomer 24bit mod rebuilt the analog side of the sbm1

[leegeddy]

fwiw, i've opened up few Oade sbm in the past and ALL of them had the adc chip replaced.  i spoke to doug while back and he said those Sony chips were no longer available thus simply changing out opamps and/or capacitors would not be the same "Oade" mod.

marc

[Ray76]

fwiw, i've opened up few Oade sbm in the past and ALL of them had the adc chip replaced.  i spoke to doug while back and he said those Sony chips were no longer available thus simply changing out opamps and/or capacitors would not be the same "Oade" mod.

marc

Yep!.That was pretty much verbatim what doug told me.

Teddy

[Brian Skalinder]

fwiw, i've opened up few Oade sbm in the past and ALL of them had the adc chip replaced. i spoke to doug while back and he said those Sony chips were no longer available thus simply changing out opamps and/or capacitors would not be the same "Oade" mod.

Any idea on the timeline behind those ADC swaps?  So the line stage mod for almost every modSBM-1 out there is not the same "Oade" mod he performed on those units?

This is all pretty confusing.  I've never seen reference to Doug swapping out the ADC chips on his site - and it goes back to late '99.  So...maybe he only offered an ADC swap pre-99?  Hmmmm...curious to hear back from my email to him.  We'll get this sorted one way or another!  Curiouser and curiouser...

[Ray76]

fwiw, i've opened up few Oade sbm in the past and ALL of them had the adc chip replaced. i spoke to doug while back and he said those Sony chips were no longer available thus simply changing out opamps and/or capacitors would not be the same "Oade" mod.

Any idea on the timeline behind those ADC swaps?  So the line stage mod for almost every modSBM-1 out there is not the same "Oade" mod he performed on those units?

This is all pretty confusing.  I've never seen reference to Doug swapping out the ADC chips on his site - and it goes back to late '99.  So...maybe he only offered an ADC swap pre-99?  Hmmmm...curious to hear back from my email to him.  We'll get this sorted one way or another!  Curiouser and curiouser...

i think the line stage mod included said ADC chip, but wasnt referenced on his site for whatever reason. so i guess it isnt a "complete oade" line stage mod without the adc replacement.Sounds to me like he did it all along, and only stopped when the chip was no longer available....im curious too.

[neutrino]

FWIW, here's a pic of the main board and a close up of the adc chip. The opamps are NOT located on this board.

http://www.ninetyninetyfour.com/sbm1mainboard.jpg


http://www.ninetyninetyfour.com/sbm1adcchip.jpg

[leegeddy]

fwiw, i've opened up few Oade sbm in the past and ALL of them had the adc chip replaced. i spoke to doug while back and he said those Sony chips were no longer available thus simply changing out opamps and/or capacitors would not be the same "Oade" mod.

Any idea on the timeline behind those ADC swaps?  So the line stage mod for almost every modSBM-1 out there is not the same "Oade" mod he performed on those units?

This is all pretty confusing.  I've never seen reference to Doug swapping out the ADC chips on his site - and it goes back to late '99.  So...maybe he only offered an ADC swap pre-99?  Hmmmm...curious to hear back from my email to him.  We'll get this sorted one way or another!  Curiouser and curiouser...

i think the line stage mod included said ADC chip, but wasnt referenced on his site for whatever reason. so i guess it isnt a "complete oade" line stage mod without the adc replacement.Sounds to me like he did it all along, and only stopped when the chip was no longer available....im curious too.

that's what i think as well. the "line stage" mod included swpping out many items including opamps, adc, capacitors and resistors.



that's what i saw in all the Oade sbm i've opened up.


marc

[Tim]

color me confused

thanks for the info Marc...

[macdaddy]

fwiw, i've opened up few Oade sbm in the past and ALL of them had the adc chip replaced. i spoke to doug while back and he said those Sony chips were no longer available thus simply changing out opamps and/or capacitors would not be the same "Oade" mod.

Any idea on the timeline behind those ADC swaps?  So the line stage mod for almost every modSBM-1 out there is not the same "Oade" mod he performed on those units?

This is all pretty confusing.  I've never seen reference to Doug swapping out the ADC chips on his site - and it goes back to late '99.  So...maybe he only offered an ADC swap pre-99?  Hmmmm...curious to hear back from my email to him.  We'll get this sorted one way or another!  Curiouser and curiouser...

i think the line stage mod included said ADC chip, but wasnt referenced on his site for whatever reason. so i guess it isnt a "complete oade" line stage mod without the adc replacement.Sounds to me like he did it all along, and only stopped when the chip was no longer available....im curious too.

that's what i think as well. the "line stage" mod included swpping out many items including opamps, adc, capacitors and resistors.



that's what i saw in all the Oade sbm i've opened up.


marc

so does mine have a different adc chip in it, too..? i never knew that...

[Tim]

this would probably explain some of the sonic differences between the Oade Mod-SBM1 and the Ramsden Mod-SBM-1

I always thought Todd's sounded a little cleaner, less coloration in the highend and less bloat on the bottom...

[leegeddy]

fwiw, i've opened up few Oade sbm in the past and ALL of them had the adc chip replaced. i spoke to doug while back and he said those Sony chips were no longer available thus simply changing out opamps and/or capacitors would not be the same "Oade" mod.

Any idea on the timeline behind those ADC swaps?  So the line stage mod for almost every modSBM-1 out there is not the same "Oade" mod he performed on those units?

This is all pretty confusing.  I've never seen reference to Doug swapping out the ADC chips on his site - and it goes back to late '99.  So...maybe he only offered an ADC swap pre-99?  Hmmmm...curious to hear back from my email to him.  We'll get this sorted one way or another!  Curiouser and curiouser...

i think the line stage mod included said ADC chip, but wasnt referenced on his site for whatever reason. so i guess it isnt a "complete oade" line stage mod without the adc replacement.Sounds to me like he did it all along, and only stopped when the chip was no longer available....im curious too.

that's what i think as well. the "line stage" mod included swpping out many items including opamps, adc, capacitors and resistors.



that's what i saw in all the Oade sbm i've opened up.


marc

so does mine have a different adc chip in it, too..? i never knew that...

mac;
yes it does.

marc

[neutrino]

Now it's time to begin the SBM1-24/96 mod...

 leegeddy? JK Labs? ToddR?

[macdaddy]

Now it's time to begin the SBM1-24/96 mod...

 leegeddy? JK Labs? ToddR?

i have been dreaming about that!!!!

[L Ron Hoover]

Now it's time to begin the SBM1-24/96 mod...

 leegeddy? JK Labs? ToddR?

QFT


Now I'm curious to see what's going on inside my MSBM1. Are they easy to open?

[neutrino]

They're pretty easy to open but a little awkward to remove from the case. You would also need to desolder the metal plate which covers the main board where the ADC chip is located.
dB-

[marc0789]

fwiw, i've opened up few Oade sbm in the past and ALL of them had the adc chip replaced.  i spoke to doug while back and he said those Sony chips were no longer available thus simply changing out opamps and/or capacitors would not be the same "Oade" mod.

marc

believe that's what Doug told me years ago, when I had mine done...which I sold, then repurchased last fall. I also vaguely recall Doug saying a few years ago that he wouldn't be replacing the chip anymore with newer mods, due to the chip not being available. However, it is also my understanding that the design of the sbm-1 does not allow 24 bit output under any circumstances....?

[Todd R]

this would probably explain some of the sonic differences between the Oade Mod-SBM1 and the Ramsden Mod-SBM-1

I always thought Todd's sounded a little cleaner, less coloration in the highend and less bloat on the bottom...

Wow, interesting thread.  Doug always was pretty clear that his mod replaced the op amps, but I didn't realize he also replaced the ADC chip.  That would probably explain why he was characterizing his early versions of this as a 24-bit ADC mod SBM1, since I'm sure the ADC chip he used was 24 bits.

Tim -- glad you like the sound of mine.  I'd imagine the differences you hear are more of a function of the differenct characteristics of the op amps we choose.  (Or at least it's hard to believe that Doug would choose to replace an ADC chip to get less clarity in the top end and more bloat in the bottom. )  Doug now has expanded into offering several different sounding mods, but if the original (warm) mod-SBM1 and m148 are any indication, Doug seems to lean towards the warm sound, or perhaps the euphonic tube-like sound.  I guess in recording gear, I more tend towards transparency and detail over warmth, thus I guess my preference of the V3 over the Minime.  Of couse playback is a different matter -- I may need to get back to some tubes in my playback.... 

At any rate, it's always good to have choices so we can get what our own ears best prefer.  Too bad the Oade mod-SBM1 isn't offered any more, but at least this explains why.

[dmonterisi]

for better or for worse on the sound of the mod, i gotta say i'm a little surprised that doug's upgrades don't specifically spell out what he's doing to the box.  i guess the ultimate sound of the unit is the most important, but if i was sending someone an expensive piece of gear to be modified, i would want to know exactly what he was doing to it.

[marc0789]

fwiw doug recently told a buddy of mine that he essentially built the m148 and modsbm1 to be run together.

[Tim]

for better or for worse on the sound of the mod, i gotta say i'm a little surprised that doug's upgrades don't specifically spell out what he's doing to the box. i guess the ultimate sound of the unit is the most important, but if i was sending someone an expensive piece of gear to be modified, i would want to know exactly what he was doing to it.

agreed.

[marc0789]

for better or for worse on the sound of the mod, i gotta say i'm a little surprised that doug's upgrades don't specifically spell out what he's doing to the box.  i guess the ultimate sound of the unit is the most important, but if i was sending someone an expensive piece of gear to be modified, i would want to know exactly what he was doing to it.

he considers everything he does to be proprietary. I think his attitude was, if you trust me to make the thing sound good, send it in; but you'll get no information on the upgrade process. 100% justified imo. If that's not to the liking of the customer, move along or diy.

[dmonterisi]

for better or for worse on the sound of the mod, i gotta say i'm a little surprised that doug's upgrades don't specifically spell out what he's doing to the box.  i guess the ultimate sound of the unit is the most important, but if i was sending someone an expensive piece of gear to be modified, i would want to know exactly what he was doing to it.

he considers everything he does to be proprietary. I think his attitude was, if you trust me to make the thing sound good, send it in; but you'll get no information on the upgrade process. 100% justified imo. If that's not to the liking of the customer, move along or diy.

100% justifiied because of the doug idolatry that goes on...i guess.  i just think it's a bit weird that someone would advertise a modification, call it a line stage rebuild, but not tell you how he was changing it.  i'm not asking for part numbers or exactly what he does or anything of the sort that would ruin his proprietary information.  but telling me which parts are changed, yeah, i'd want to know that.  for example, now doug isn't doing mod or repair work on these.  you need to get it fixed by someone else, but they have no idea what was done to it in order to fix it?  recall your comments about apogee and the ad-1000 schematics.

[Brian Skalinder]

i just think it's a bit weird that someone would advertise a modification, call it a line stage rebuild, but not tell you how he was changing it. i'm not asking for part numbers or exactly what he does or anything of the sort that would ruin his proprietary information. but telling me which parts are changed, yeah, i'd want to know that.

I emailed Doug asking for very generic and historical information about the modSBM-1s - no part numbers, etc. - just whether he swapped out the ADC in addition to the op amps at some point in time.  He basically replied that he won't provide details on what he does in his mods, and that I should open it up and look.   I was kinda hoping he'd offer at least generic info about components modified.  I know he's done so in the past regarding the analog components in the modSBM-1 and also the UA5 mods, so am a bit surprised he wouldn't provide any info about whether he's modded the ADC chips, too.  His prerogative, but I still wish he'd provided at least high level info. 

[marc0789]

for better or for worse on the sound of the mod, i gotta say i'm a little surprised that doug's upgrades don't specifically spell out what he's doing to the box.  i guess the ultimate sound of the unit is the most important, but if i was sending someone an expensive piece of gear to be modified, i would want to know exactly what he was doing to it.

he considers everything he does to be proprietary. I think his attitude was, if you trust me to make the thing sound good, send it in; but you'll get no information on the upgrade process. 100% justified imo. If that's not to the liking of the customer, move along or diy.

100% justifiied because of the doug idolatry that goes on...i guess.  i just think it's a bit weird that someone would advertise a modification, call it a line stage rebuild, but not tell you how he was changing it.  i'm not asking for part numbers or exactly what he does or anything of the sort that would ruin his proprietary information.  but telling me which parts are changed, yeah, i'd want to know that.  for example, now doug isn't doing mod or repair work on these.  you need to get it fixed by someone else, but they have no idea what was done to it in order to fix it?  recall your comments about apogee and the ad-1000 schematics.

not sure he does anything that'd make it difficult for someone who knows what they're doing to fix it. for example I doubt it's much of a mystery to Ramsden, Marc Kim, etc....

Doug puts schematics up and he loses business...his perogative to keep it to himself, as it is any prospective purchaser's perogative to get pissed and not have Doug do the work. However, if he doesn't plan to do any mod work in the future, seems that he doesn't need to keep this stuff proprietary any longer.

guess I give him the benefit of the doubt because of his history, reputation, and all he's done for tapers...more than anyone, imo. I can tell you I've been steered in some really fucked up and expensive directions by other retailers, and not Doug.

[Tim]

I'm with you Marc, I trust Doug... I just found it odd that he was doing something major to the modsbm-1's and not telling anyone...

I don't care about the details, it just seems odd that he wasn't upfront about the changes he was making to the units.

[marc0789]

I'm with you Marc, I trust Doug... I just found it odd that he was doing something major to the modsbm-1's and not telling anyone...

I don't care about the details, it just seems odd that he wasn't upfront about the changes he was making to the units.

I wonder if he had any fears that Sony would give him a hard time if he let the mods out in the open?

[gruven42]

I asked Doug about making the SBM-1 output 24 bit
data and he said he did not do that, I doubt any 24 bit output
SBM-1's exist.

This would be sweet. Bypass the SBM and output a straight 24 bit signal. It would, however, only be 24/48 max. Anyone up to the challenge?

[neutrino]

I asked Doug about the possibility in modding a SBM-1 to output 24bits and he said while the chip specifications say it can do it, it would take a lot of work to get it done. So unfortunately if you want to go 24bits, we may have to look elsewhere...
dB-

[Kevin Straker]

Oade called their line stage mod a "24 bit mod", but it doesn't transmit 24 bits. It produces a 24 bit signal, then dithers down to 20 bit, which DAT decks then take further down to 16.
(thanks Nick)
A couple of folks on the oade site talk about having 24 bit SBM1s....

Yep, had one of those myself, w/the coax mod.

[Craig T]

I asked Doug about the possibility in modding a SBM-1 to output 24bits and he said while the chip specifications say it can do it, it would take a lot of work to get it done. So unfortunately if you want to go 24bits, we may have to look elsewhere...
dB-

its been awhile and my memory is a bit foggy, but from what I remember Doug said it could be modded for 24bit output, but the analog section spec's didn't warrant it.  even with upgrades, the analog specs (ie frequency/dynamic range, noise) were not good enough to bother with 24bit output.

[Ray76]

Oade called their line stage mod a "24 bit mod", but it doesn't transmit 24 bits. It produces a 24 bit signal, then dithers down to 20 bit, which DAT decks then take further down to 16.
(thanks Nick)
A couple of folks on the oade site talk about having 24 bit SBM1s....

Yep, had one of those myself, w/the coax mod.

I knew I wasnt hallucinating when I described what I heard him say.

[gruven42]

even with upgrades, the analog specs (ie frequency/dynamic range, noise) were not good enough to bother with 24bit output.

If that's true, then wouldn't it follow that the 16-bit signal is not good enough? Anyone get what I'm trying to say? If the 16-bit signal is primo, shouldn't the 24-bit data that proceded it be better?

[Todd R]

Well, yes and no.  The SBM1 could be great at 16 bits, but have too much inherent noise as part of its design to get anything useful at 24 bits.  That is, the increased 8 bits of resolution would just be essentially random due to the noise, and not capturing the true audio signal.  That would explain why a box could be good at 16 bits, but not worth it to be expanded to 24 bits.  But if those additional 8 bits are only capturing noise, what would be the point of dithering and noise-shaping from 24 bits to 16 bits?

At any rate, it doesn't sound like the SBM1 is going to be a candidate for a 24-bit A/D, even if the mods could be easily done.

[Kindguy]

I'm so glad this thread is here. I've always been confused about the mods. But never searched it out till I wanted one.

I just picked up a SBM-1 (Oade ADC-24 SBM-LINE modification). spelled out just like the box in the pic shown earlier.

[scb]

not sure if this was posted yet

http://www.oade.com/cgi-bin/miva?Forum/technology/showmsg.mv+message=3116

he responded to marc to say it was a new op amp, not adc chip...

[marc0789]

not sure if this was posted yet

http://www.oade.com/cgi-bin/miva?Forum/technology/showmsg.mv+message=3116

he responded to marc to say it was a new op amp, not adc chip...

blast from da past.

[scb]

damn right.  back in the "who the fuck is this blackpete asshole?" days 

[marc0789]

damn right.  back in the "who the fuck is this blackpete asshole?" days 

times have changed, but the asshole has not.

[L Ron Hoover]

Damn, that was only three years ago? Seems like a lifetime.

[marc0789]

Daryan Lenz on soldering, circa 02:

I ordered a sla last night, I have a charger, and would just like to
solder some sort of wiring from the battery to the 3 pin, mini xlr.
I am trying to avoid cutting my da-p1 power supply, so if anyone has
a suggestion on what to use as far as wire from the battery to the
3-pin xlr female interconnect, I would really appreciate it.

Daryan

 

[macdaddy]

so if it is an opamp, where does the "24bit" mod come from..?

[marc0789]

so if it is an opamp, where does the "24bit" mod come from..?

good question.....perhaps the mod unit *does* sample at 24 bits? which is pretty irrelevant I guess if it dithers to 16 anyway.

[nickgregory]

either that or marketing language

[Brian Skalinder]

good question.....perhaps the mod unit *does* sample at 24 bits? which is pretty irrelevant I guess if it dithers to 16 anyway.

Per the manual, the stock SBM-1 ADC creates a 24-bit signal and then employs the SBM process to dither down to 16-bit for output.

And as quoted by Mic D earlier, a bit more detail on this process in a post from the Oade archives:

Snagged from the oade archives...

This was how the Sony technical support rep I just got off the phone
with explains the SBM A/D used in all their products carrying that
identifier in simple terms. This is using simplified explanations,
so computer geeks, please overlook the obvious generalizations.

" The SBM initially quantitizes the analog signal into 24bit data and
then through a noise shaping filter which is the core of the SBM
process. First it analyzes the entire waveform and identifies bytes
of noise information it finds in the audible bandwidth that it
captures until it reaches 4 bits worth of this information. This 4
bits of information is then cut out completely. The remaining 20
bits of data are then reintegrated, or dithered, into the 16 bit
word length."

[marc0789]

good question.....perhaps the mod unit *does* sample at 24 bits? which is pretty irrelevant I guess if it dithers to 16 anyway.

Per the manual, the stock SBM-1 ADC creates a 24-bit signal and then employs the SBM process to dither down to 16-bit for output.

And as quoted by Mic D earlier, a bit more detail on this process in a post from the Oade archives:

Snagged from the oade archives...

This was how the Sony technical support rep I just got off the phone
with explains the SBM A/D used in all their products carrying that
identifier in simple terms. This is using simplified explanations,
so computer geeks, please overlook the obvious generalizations.

" The SBM initially quantitizes the analog signal into 24bit data and
then through a noise shaping filter which is the core of the SBM
process. First it analyzes the entire waveform and identifies bytes
of noise information it finds in the audible bandwidth that it
captures until it reaches 4 bits worth of this information. This 4
bits of information is then cut out completely. The remaining 20
bits of data are then reintegrated, or dithered, into the 16 bit
word length."

then I guess that was a bit deceptive to market the thing as "Oade ADC-24" as my box from the Oades claims.

[Kindguy]

good question.....perhaps the mod unit *does* sample at 24 bits? which is pretty irrelevant I guess if it dithers to 16 anyway.

Per the manual, the stock SBM-1 ADC creates a 24-bit signal and then employs the SBM process to dither down to 16-bit for output.

And as quoted by Mic D earlier, a bit more detail on this process in a post from the Oade archives:

Snagged from the oade archives...

This was how the Sony technical support rep I just got off the phone
with explains the SBM A/D used in all their products carrying that
identifier in simple terms. This is using simplified explanations,
so computer geeks, please overlook the obvious generalizations.

" The SBM initially quantitizes the analog signal into 24bit data and
then through a noise shaping filter which is the core of the SBM
process. First it analyzes the entire waveform and identifies bytes
of noise information it finds in the audible bandwidth that it
captures until it reaches 4 bits worth of this information. This 4
bits of information is then cut out completely. The remaining 20
bits of data are then reintegrated, or dithered, into the 16 bit
word length."

then I guess that was a bit deceptive to market the thing as "Oade ADC-24" as my box from the Oades claims.

Then why are the ADC chips changed out & the part # scratched off?

[Brian Skalinder]

Then why are the ADC chips changed out & the part # scratched off?

Dunno, ask Doug.