Topic: Field Recording Gear

[a-dub]

Hey all,

Sorry to fill this forum up with "what kind of field recorder should i get" questions, but man I have exhausted myself researching google and different forums to find one that works for me.

First off, I'm going to be recording different outdoor environments-calm to chaotic. Pretty much nature and suburban ambiance.

Second, the sound devices gear is waaaay out of my budget so pretty much anything $600 and under.

Third are external mics really important if you have good internal mics? Example: Sony PCM-50 internals vs say Marantz PMD 660 or Fostex FR-2L with rode nt4?

I'm just trying to find a good quality sound setup with clean crisp sound and low to zero unwanted machine or preamp noise. Thanks 

 

[digifish_music]

Hey all,

Sorry to fill this forum up with "what kind of field recorder should i get" questions, but man I have exhausted myself researching google and different forums to find one that works for me.

First off, I'm going to be recording different outdoor environments-calm to chaotic. Pretty much nature and suburban ambiance.

Second, the sound devices gear is waaaay out of my budget so pretty much anything $600 and under.

Third are external mics really important if you have good internal mics? Example: Sony PCM-50 internals vs say Marantz PMD 660 or Fostex FR-2L with rode nt4?

I'm just trying to find a good quality sound setup with clean crisp sound and low to zero unwanted machine or preamp noise. Thanks 

I'll start off with a ~budget 'giant-killer' system (for field-recording). Yes it will be more than you want to spend, however it's just an example, but there is method in my approach, read below...

Sound Devices MixPre ($660)
Edirol R09HR ($350)
Audio Technica AT3032 pair (Omni) or AT3031 pair (cardioid) ($320) or Rode NT4 (in a blimp)

TOTAL = $1300~1400

This will give you a system that has extremely low self-noise and will pull field-recordings that are world class. It also has the advantage of being configurable from stealth (with the addition of some mics mentioned below) or full-blown cables-n-lights-everywhere rig.

Now I know that's not what you had in mind, however if you start with an R09HR you have the basis of an excellent setup and can add other bits as you gain confidence that this is something you want to continue.

So for now I would suggest Edirol R09HR + Sound Professionals SP-TFB-2 Microphones (run of the mic power from the R09HR), Church Audio or build your own mics = TOTAL $400~550.

The internal mics of almost all gear are useless for field-recording ambiances as they are too noisy and closely spaced. Zoom H4 and H2 however do an good job there (but they are the exception in anything below ~$600).

You can browse my field recordings with an R09 + various gear and mics here...

http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/usersViewSingle.php?id=29541

Some pics & samples, these aren't necessarily great recordings, just showing some of the places I record with my rig...

Semi-stealth...

Click here for the recording



Exposed

Click here for the recording



...

Click here for the recording



digifish

[Ozpeter]

Zoom H2's four mics can provide something the others can't when it comes to ambient recordings.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/Dogs%20in%20park%20for%20net%20MS.mp3 is a recording of me walking my dogs in the park (H2 - can't now remember whether 4 mics or two, actually).  Several people have said they bought theirs on the strength of that sample!

edit - found the details of that sample - "simply me up the park with the dogs. M, 100, 4ch mixed down with my MS method to mp3, Rode dead kitten windshield, all settings on their defaults.

You hear distant urban sounds, Australian birds, much panting by the dogs, and then us getting into the car and the car and its radio starting. The sample shows the available dynamic range pretty well. "

[digifish_music]

Zoom H2's four mics can provide something the others can't when it comes to ambient recordings.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/Dogs%20in%20park%20for%20net%20MS.mp3 is a recording of me walking my dogs in the park (H2 - can't now remember whether 4 mics or two, actually).  Several people have said they bought theirs on the strength of that sample!

edit - found the details of that sample - "simply me up the park with the dogs. M, 100, 4ch mixed down with my MS method to mp3, Rode dead kitten windshield, all settings on their defaults.

You hear distant urban sounds, Australian birds, much panting by the dogs, and then us getting into the car and the car and its radio starting. The sample shows the available dynamic range pretty well. "

Very nice, I keep hearing great recordings from the H2's internal mics.

digifish

[a-dub]

Digi, what did you record the lake sounds with? That recording sounds very good!

[digifish_music]

Digi, what did you record the lake sounds with? That recording sounds very good!

Rode NT4 ... note, all the background noise is 'live' background noise, not from the rig/mic.

PS: lots more Rode NT4 recordings here...

http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/searchText.php?search=rode%20nt4&start=1&searchDescriptions=1&searchTags=1&searchFilenames=0&searchUsernames=0

This one is not bad, NT4 walking along (mic in blimp)...the green trace below is the path. The orange was for another recording.

http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/samplesViewSingle.php?id=44480



Here's the 68 meter recording...

http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/samplesViewSingle.php?id=44479

digifish

[rastasean]

I am becoming more interested in field recording as well and I have been in communication with digifish. He has excellent advice and in concur with it all. If you just want to start out, I would recommend the Edriol R-09HR and a pair of the binaural mics digi linked you to. This should be quite sufficient for you for awhile. I have heard the h2 to be a nice recorder but I have heard it uses batteries a little too much.

What kind of field recordings are you interested in doing?

[a-dub]

I am becoming more interested in field recording as well and I have been in communication with digifish. He has excellent advice and in concur with it all. If you just want to start out, I would recommend the Edriol R-09HR and a pair of the binaural mics digi linked you to. This should be quite sufficient for you for awhile. I have heard the h2 to be a nice recorder but I have heard it uses batteries a little too much.

What kind of field recordings are you interested in doing?

Thank you both for steering me in the right direction. Just by listening to digifish's recordings, you can definately appreciate the clean sound quality. As for field recodrings, pretty much forests, creeks, anything with water, city sounds, everything and anything I can get a mic close to.

Ratasean: How do the binaural mics sound for you? Did you buy them from sound professionals or make them yourself? And when you record with them, is there alot of unwanted noise or are they pretty clean sounding?

[rastasean]

Thank you both for steering me in the right direction. Just by listening to digifish's recordings, you can definately appreciate the clean sound quality. As for field recodrings, pretty much forests, creeks, anything with water, city sounds, everything and anything I can get a mic close to.

Ratasean: How do the binaural mics sound for you? Did you buy them from sound professionals or make them yourself? And when you record with them, is there alot of unwanted noise or are they pretty clean sounding?

Those are the kinds of recordings I'm interested in as well--basically anything. haha.
Did you know the artist andy warhol used to record everything as well?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_warhol
Audio: At one point Warhol carried a portable recorder with him wherever he went, taping everything everybody said and did. He referred to this device as his "wife." Some of these tapes were the basis for his literary work.

I don't own the pair yet but I think I may by the SP and make my own. Basically any stereo omni mics are good enough to be binaural, its just the placement in/directly the ears that makes them special. The other night I attempted to do a recording using a pair of giant squid audio mics I own but I was not very good just because the mics aren't that crisp, it was kind of muddy or something.

I still don't know what I want for my 'rig'. In addition to doing the ambient recordings, I want to do music recordings as well. Right now I don't know if I want, well i want BOTH, R-09HR and eventually a mixpre to do phantom power or the fostex fr-2LE and perhaps a mod from one of those guys that do them. Since I will be getting the 09HR (Provided people don't complain too much about them), I'm almost wondering if the mixpre would just be better all around.

[a-dub]

I'm feeling the same way about just getting a mixpre with R-09HR or fostex. I'm not sure how clean the fostex's preamps are though. If you think about it, it would be cheaper getting the fostex with a rode nt4 rather than buying a good mixpre for the R-09HR and an external mic. I'm just really concerned about unwanted noise from both rigs. Which would be cleaner? Digifish did mention that R-09HR + SD preamp + rode nt4 would give you world class recordings. I wonder if fostex and rode nt4 would have similar results?

[rastasean]

I'm feeling the same way about just getting a mixpre with R-09HR or fostex. I'm not sure how clean the fostex's preamps are though. If you think about it, it would be cheaper getting the fostex with a rode nt4 rather than buying a good mixpre for the R-09HR and an external mic. I'm just really concerned about unwanted noise from both rigs. Which would be cleaner? Digifish did mention that R-09HR + SD preamp + rode nt4 would give you world class recordings. I wonder if fostex and rode nt4 would have similar results?

Well glad to see I'm in your boat! I have heard of people people who love their Fostex FR-2LE recorders and there are people who can upgrade the pre-amps in it for a couple hundred extra bucks...http://www.oade.com/digital_recorders/hard_disc_recorders/FR-2LE_upgrades.html

Just thought I would toss that to you.

[a-dub]

Looks like the basic MOD is right up our alley:

Stereo Ambient & Nature Recording/Birds/Foley/FX

PMD 660 ENG
PMD 660 Ambient
FR2LE Basic
FR2LE Super
HDP2 Super +6B
Edirol R4 Ambient
Edirol R4Pro Ambient
FR2 Super

Not that bad of a price either. The FR2LE goes for $599.99 without the mods at some places. Have you heard any recordings with the mod compared to the original?

[rastasean]

Digifish,

While this was intended to be a pre-amp review, can you you tell us how you like the mixpre? I found these comments on a forum, I think they mainly do audio for video, though.

the battery life is shi* with phantom power on and led illumination ,
no mic level outs , no individual high pass filter
no individual channel monitoring , no ms matrix , no headphone ms matrix
the pots are to small
let say if you need mixer its not something to consider , if you need additional preamp to add to your setup it could work .
by the way it sounds good what doesnt make it ideal for normal jobs
http://dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=110933

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Digifish,

While this was intended to be a pre-amp review, can you you tell us how you like the mixpre? I found these comments on a forum, I think they mainly do audio for video, though.

the battery life is shi* with phantom power on and led illumination ,
no mic level outs , no individual high pass filter
no individual channel monitoring , no ms matrix , no headphone ms matrix
the pots are to small
let say if you need mixer its not something to consider , if you need additional preamp to add to your setup it could work .
by the way it sounds good what doesnt make it ideal for normal jobs
http://dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=110933

You'll notice the comments are from Oleg.  Do a search for Oleg here...

Considering the size and performance of the MixPre, it is one of the best devices for our hobby. 

Consider the Grace201 Preamp (about $1400 more than the SD): http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/m201/  Even this $2000 device doesn't have all the features Oleg lists. 

You should ask Oleg what pre-amp he uses that has all the feature he lists.

Terry

[Ozpeter]

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm is essential reading for nature/ambient recordists.

[digifish_music]

Digifish,

While this was intended to be a pre-amp review, can you you tell us how you like the mixpre? I found these comments on a forum, I think they mainly do audio for video, though.

the battery life is shi* with phantom power on and led illumination ,
no mic level outs , no individual high pass filter
no individual channel monitoring , no ms matrix , no headphone ms matrix
the pots are to small
let say if you need mixer its not something to consider , if you need additional preamp to add to your setup it could work .
by the way it sounds good what doesnt make it ideal for normal jobs
http://dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=110933

About the MixPre...

Battery life, a couple of thoughts 1. the battery life is about on par with my R09's batteries. That is 3~4 hours, phantom on. Honestly my R09 always goes flat before my MixPre, I have never even worried about it as I always carry spare batteries with me. The MixPre warns you when the batteries are low, and that said, I have never seen the warning. I just don't record for that long between changing the batteries. 2. Field recording is not like concert recording, you have plenty of time to manage your batteries etc and recordings seldom last longer than 5-10 minutes.

Let's get this straight, the MixPre has been the darling of the 'quietude' field recording set for years (also appears as a Shure FP24), it has the lowest noise floor of any mic preamp I have used, sounds fantastic and is built like a tank. It will turn a $300 consumer digital recorder with a decent line-in into something that is audibly indistinguishable from a 700 series recorder under all but the most critical of analysis or listening conditions. Actually I'd like to see a blind comparison.   

I don't think of the MixPre as a mixer (each channel can only be panned switched into one of three positions, L, C or R anyway), it's really a pair of pristine mic preamps and phantom power front end to a digital recorder (R09 & R44 in my case). It gives you 700 series recording quality when paired with an R09 for ~$1000. Spend the $1500 you save on mics. And while recorders and recording formats become obsolete, I am confident the MixPre will outlast them all

Yes it has linked high-pass filters (80 or 160 hz), I don't see the fact they are linked as a real limitation. The compressors, which are adjustable and excellent, on the other hand can function independently.

No ms matrix. How many mic-pres do?

Pots too small? Then the pots on all the Sound Devices gear are too small. I have never had any problem with them (even while wearing gloves). They are rubberized which makes them even easier to grip.

It also has the very nice feature of a mini-stereo-phono line-out to connect it to consumer recorders or XLR if you have those inputs on your gear. It's been very well thought out as far as connectivity goes.

What does suck is the size and location of the power switch, but it's no big deal. Of all the gear I have ever owned there are two pieces I will recommend without reservation, they are the Sound Devices MixPre and a Rode NT1-A.

digifish

[digifish_music]

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm is essential reading for nature/ambient recordists.

Yes, nice site.

Just a note, that is comparing the inbuilt mic-preamps of all the gear. If you are running line-in, where available, then they improve significantly.

digifish

[a-dub]

Digi, you are the man!  By the way have you used the R-09HR yet and if not have you heard great things about it, worth getting?

Ratasean: What do you think? Fostex MOD or R-09HR + SD Mixpre?

[digifish_music]

Digi, you are the man!  By the way have you used the R-09HR yet and if not have you heard great things about it, worth getting?

Ratasean: What do you think? Fostex MOD or R-09HR + SD Mixpre?

Not yet, but I should have one in the next week, so will do some A/B comparisons. I can't imagine it will be worse than the R09

digifish

[rastasean]

Digi, you are the man!  By the way have you used the R-09HR yet and if not have you heard great things about it, worth getting?

Ratasean: What do you think? Fostex MOD or R-09HR + SD Mixpre?

Well, honestly...I would like the R-09HR because its so portable and everyone seems to like it (the R09 at least). I have two pre-amps on hold for me right now, Church Audio 9100 and a Edirol UA-5 so I think I should be able to live without the mixpre for a little while. I originally fell in love with the fostex because it has XLR inputs and overall, people don't have too much to complain about it especially after the mods. If I do get a fostex, I will get at least the basic mod to tweak the pre-amps a little.
I'm not that concerned by what people say about the mixpre because I watched a couple clips on youtube it was was much quieter than anything else they were demoing.

Do you have an extensive microphone locker? These recorders we're talking about with these pre-amps will use XLR mics. Do you have any? I don't know what set I want to get first. The NT5 set is pretty tempting to me and its been the set I've wanted for sometime but after hearing digidish's recordings from the NT4. There's also a good sounding pair of AT3031s and AT3032s for this kind of work. I should make an excel sheet or something. People do that when trying to reason which mics to buy, right?

[rastasean]

not to mention, after you get mics and the recorder and the preamp you'll need mic/light stands, shock mounts, wind screeens, cables, recording media.

Oh, damn this is an expensive hobby. 

then you have the tickets to buy to the shows, if you're going to record music as well.

[F.O.Bean]

I say get a modded FR2LE But its not as stealthy as the Mix Pre>R-9 rig, if that matters at all to you

Hmmm, dunno what mics to suggest. Maybe some Audix Micros? Theyre TINY and have Card/Hyper/Omni capsules