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Author Topic: Phantom Power and the PCM-M10  (Read 5191 times)

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Offline dijon

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Phantom Power and the PCM-M10
« on: June 15, 2016, 05:13:15 PM »
Greetings all, this is my first post but I've been lurking for a few months and have read literally everything pertaining to phantom power with regard to using external microphones with the little PCM-M10.

From my understanding, everyone was talking about the Naiant Tinybox - which alas is discontinued (although I never did learn why, seemed to be a killer little tiny box). The other one that everyone talked about was the Denecke PS-2, which it seems needs to have a mod in order to get it to work with the 1/8" jack, plus some diodes thrown in so it doesn't fry mics if you accidentally hot swap them. I would definitely be open to going this route but it seems that the company that did these mods is no longer doing them.

I understand that a lot of people will say to go for such and such a preamp that has phantom power but I really like the idea of a mini field recording rig. So just a phantom power solution would be optimal. I would really like to use my Line Audio CM3's with PCM-M10.

Thanks!

Offline ArchivalAudio

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Re: Phantom Power and the PCM-M10
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2016, 10:26:14 PM »
Welcome!

You can use any Preamp or Phantom or battery box to the line in on the M-10.
More info would be great.
What kind of mics do you have? or want?
do you need phantom? some can run off 9v battery box or even the plug in power from the mic in on the m-10.
 If you need phantom p48 to power some xlr mics I'd suggest some kind of preamp with 48v phantom then line in on the m-10.
~ Archival Audio ~
Archiving Worthy Music
since 1986 & digitally since 1995

https://www.facebook.com/ArchivalAudio/

Main Mics: Milab VM-44 Links • Milab DC-196's (Matched  Pair)  • MBHO KA500 or KA300 •
PreAmps:  BaybNbox  • Naiant LittleBox • Naiant [Milab VM44] TinyBox • Naiant PIPsqueak
Recorders: MixPre 10T •  Tascam DR-100 mkIII • Sony A-10 • Sony M-10 

macMini 3Ghz i7 16GB Ram 500GB SSD • MOTU UltraLite
Naiant MSH-2's •   TOA K1's • Beyer TG 153c's •  AT 853 (4.7kmod darktrain) • Countryman B3's (1 k mod)  + other assorted mics

Offline if_then_else

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Re: Phantom Power and the PCM-M10
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2016, 03:00:52 AM »
I've also got some CM3s and the Sony PCM-M10.
I've used them with
   * the SD MixPre-D
   * the Audioroot Femto and the
   * Juicedlink RM-222

The CM3's need at least 12V (depending on the actual SPL):
Phantom power: 12 - 48V. Current consumption: 3.5 mA
Max SPL: 135dB @0.5% THD (130dB@24V, 120dB @ 12V)

Caveat: The CM3s are really sensitive/hot for bass-heavy stuff.
So unless the preamp has some built-in pad (like with te RM-222),
you need to use an external attenuator between your mics and the
mic-in of your preamp (in order not to oversaturate the preamp).

Offline dijon

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Re: Phantom Power and the PCM-M10
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2016, 12:27:55 PM »
Thanks for the responses! I'm really looking for a just phantom-power only solution as I'd like to keep it as compact as possible.  I'm assuming this would be the cheaper route as well.  Basically the idea of a modded Denecke-PS2 (modded with diodes and 1/8" connector) seemed like the ultimate, portable solution. This way I could plug in my CM3's and use the preamps on the PCM-M10. However, this doesn't seem like an available option anymore. All the other options seem like preamp + phantom power solutions.

Should I just consider battery powered mics as a better alternative? AT8022 for instance?

Offline Craig T

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Re: Phantom Power and the PCM-M10
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2016, 12:54:35 PM »
Naiant IPA?  I believe this would provide 12V phantom with the A23 internal battery option.
http://naiant.com/studio-electronics-products/inline-devices/ipa-flexible-power-inline-amplifier/

The Deneke PS2 is a good option.
http://www.rcrowley.com/Denecke/PS2mod.html

Schoeps cmc6/4v / Line Audio CM3, OM1 / ADK A51 / Church Audio CA-14
Naiant Tinybox v2.2 / NBox(P) / Church Audio ST9200 / CA-UGLY
Sony PCM-M10 / Tascam DR-70D / Zoom F3 / Zoom F6

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Phantom Power and the PCM-M10
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2016, 12:59:34 PM »
{edit ^ as above}  I'd email Jon at Naiant (maker of the Tinybox).  I think he still has some solution for at least 12V if not phantom powering that is portable (though it's not the prior solution). 

The Tinybox was one of the best gear purchases I made.  He made mine to supply P-48 or 9V as well as connect self powered mics.  Though he didn't think it would work that way it'll also supply P-48 plugged into an outlet so I can basically run P48 24/7 at a festival if I've got an extension cord and convenient outlet... 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline DSatz

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Re: Phantom Power and the PCM-M10
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2016, 02:19:45 AM »
Just something to be aware of: Nearly all phantom-powered microphones have balanced outputs. So do nearly all phantom power supplies, since they're intended to be connected to the (likewise balanced) inputs of pro audio mixers and recorders. But the Sony M10 is a consumer device, with the unbalanced inputs typical of consumer recording equipment. So you need your phantom power supply to power your microphones, but also to convert their output signals to unbalanced format. And most phantom power supplies (being made for use with professional equipment) aren't designed to do that.

Thus the talk of modifications at the output of the phantom power supply.

But what people really, really need to realize is that the possible wiring schemes for making that conversion vary with different types of microphones. There's no one wiring scheme that always works, and no such thing as a passive "balanced to unbalanced" adapter or wiring scheme, short of using an input transformer (and the good ones of those are bulky and expensive). Instead you always have to find out the particular method of connection that is appropriate for your particular type of microphone--and that varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, and even from model to model from the same manufacturer. If you get everything done right for your favorite microphones today, but later on you want to try another kind of microphone, you may need to have the circuitry modified again. When you use the wrong wiring scheme for unbalancing the signals from a balanced microphone, you might hear nothing but noise and/or faint leakage of the original signals; or the mikes might sound OK when you try them out at home or in the store, but at the next show you record, you might find that the maximum sound level that they can handle is signficantly reduced (because your wiring scheme is actually short-circuiting an actively driven side of the output). In some extreme cases the microphones can be damaged in an expensive way (e.g. an output transistor burns out); that's rare, but it can and does happen, for sure.

In addition, most phantom power supplies (though not a stock Denecke PS-2) pass the DC phantom supply voltage along to their outputs, which is generally harmless when connecting to balanced inputs, but potentially fatal to unbalanced equipment. So you need to protect the input of your recorder from that voltage if you have such a supply.

And finally, professional condenser microphones may be far more sensitive than the microphones that a consumer recorder was designed to be used with. As a result, if you try to record anything loud, you risk overloading the inputs of the recorder with those much higher signal levels. This type of overload generally occurs in the very first (input) circuit stage of the recorder, BEFORE (in terms of signal flow) the level control has any effect. So even if you've turned the record level control down to a near-minimum setting, and even if the meters show that 0 dB isn't being reached or even approached very closely, the signals you record could still be severely distorted. This happens rather often to people who naively connect stuff together that simply wasn't designed to work together; you can see numerous messages on this board from baffled newcomers who don't understand where the distortion is coming from, since the meters never went above minus whatever.

All in all, if you've read this far, I think you can see why some people are gently suggesting that you consider an outboard preamp with phantom powering and unbalanced, or readily "unbalanceable," outputs. They can solve all the above problems in a single move. All you have to work out is how to connect the preamp's outputs to your recorder's line inputs, and then you can use any microphones that accept standard phantom powering (provided that the preamp's phantom powering is adequate for those microphones).

This stuff is by no means impossible to learn, but neither is it quite as simple as some people wish it to be.

--best regards
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 02:23:38 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline dijon

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Re: Phantom Power and the PCM-M10
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2016, 09:16:45 AM »
Thanks DSatz, that was tremendously helpful. I now realize that my simple question was, in fact, far more nuanced than I thought! Lots to think about for sure.

Do you think a battery powered stereo mic (AT2022, AT8022) would be a decent match with M10? I should mention that I will be doing mostly field recording of quiet ambiences and the occasional chamber music recording, probably not ever doing louder rock shows and the like. I'm really looking for a run and gun setup where I don't have a bag full of gear! Thanks again.

Offline voltronic

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Re: Phantom Power and the PCM-M10
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2016, 09:34:16 AM »
Thanks DSatz, that was tremendously helpful. I now realize that my simple question was, in fact, far more nuanced than I thought! Lots to think about for sure.

Do you think a battery powered stereo mic (AT2022, AT8022) would be a decent match with M10? I should mention that I will be doing mostly field recording of quiet ambiences and the occasional chamber music recording, probably not ever doing louder rock shows and the like. I'm really looking for a run and gun setup where I don't have a bag full of gear! Thanks again.

I just posted this recommendation to another member.  Look for a used SD MixPre / Shure FP-24 (same box, different branding) which ticks all of the boxes DSatz describes above.  You connect the Tape Out of the MixPre to the Line In of the M10 with a mini stereo cable.  This will allow you plenty of gain (56dB) while still having very low noise, both important for your recording application.  I'd find a way to use your CM3s here as they're going to much better quality and more flexible than those AT stereo mics.

Here's a sample I recorded a couple years ago with the exact chain you'd be using: CM3 > FP24 > M10.  Small amateur chamber choir in small church: https://www.dropbox.com/s/s3ktungnkdj145s/Chamber%20Choir%20-%20%20Ubi%20Caritas.flac?dl=0

And to hear how this preamp / recorder combination does with a higher class of mics, listen to the MK4/MK8 sample tracks in this post: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176324.msg2189688#msg2189688
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Offline dijon

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Re: Phantom Power and the PCM-M10
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2016, 12:48:48 PM »
Thanks voltronic - that chamber choir sounded fantastic! What configuration did you use for the CM3s? And is there a huge difference between the MixPre and the newer MixPre-D?

Offline voltronic

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Re: Phantom Power and the PCM-M10
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2016, 07:33:56 PM »
Thanks voltronic - that chamber choir sounded fantastic! What configuration did you use for the CM3s? And is there a huge difference between the MixPre and the newer MixPre-D?

It was a NOS config (30cm, 90deg out) that many have found works great with the CM3s.  About 10ft high and about 8ft back from conductor, which put the stand more or less in the center of this tiny church.  Check the huge thread on Gearslutz for samples from many others with these mics.

The MixPre-D has A/D conversion, useful if you have a recorder with digital input.  Also has a mid-side matrix if that matters to you.  Personally I always prefer to matrix in post anyway.  I think the preamps are the same in both versions.  I bought my FP-24 used, and it was made in 2006.  Not bad for a 10 year old preamp.  You'll find that the pro-level gear will generally keep right on ticking for a long time.  Those Schoeps mics in the other samples I linked I believe are even older (I borrowed them for this concert) and I'm fairly certain they've never been sent back to the mothership for service.  (DSatz, I'm curious if you can nail down a rough date on them from the pictures.  They are CMC5 bodies with the velvety finish).
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
- Gustav Mahler

Acoustic Recording Techniques
Team Classical
Team Line Audio
Team DPA

Offline if_then_else

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Re: Phantom Power and the PCM-M10
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2016, 03:04:56 AM »
I'm really looking for a run and gun setup where I don't have a bag full of gear! Thanks again.

Just some side by side comparison pictures of the 3 pre-amps that I had mentioned.
(Of course they're completely different animals both feature- and price-wise.)

 

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