Topic: I'm allergic to crowd chatters: should I invest in a good pair of omnis anyway ?

[fandelive]

Hi everyone,

I have run cards with success within the last 6 years. I clip my mics on a baseball cap, close to my temples, and stand at the best reachable spot according to my ears.

I'm thinking now about investing in a good pair of omnis. The reason is I find my cards recordings to sound tiny, unless I can play them thru a pair of headset.
Also, I'd like to be able to move my head without getting a bad phasing effect (but is that even possible to avoid with binaural technique ?).

I'm considering omnis to get deeper bass and a much fuller sound, but I'm afraid picking too much room echoes and way more crowd chatters...
I guess there are some ways to limit or to avoid that ? Standing as close as possible to the source ? I'm afraid the mix will be unbalanced :/

Thanks !
 

[nulldogmas]

What kind of music do you typically record, and what kind of venues?

[fandelive]

What kind of music do you typically record, and what kind of venues?

Rock acts, mainly in clubs. I'll keep the cards for arenas anyway.

[stevetoney]

I don't stealth much anymore, but I'd get omni's for the reasons you mentioned.  You can't avoid crowd chatter when you're stealth taping and omni's will indeed help with the phasing effect you hear.  The fact that you're at a rock concert helps because the music volume helps mask background noise.  The deep bass you're after depends on the mic model/brand more than the capsule type.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head about standing too close to the stage.  Standing really close to the stage can be really rewarding when the conditions are right.  You can get a pure sound with great instrument separation.  That said, recording stage lip usually frustrates me.  First, if there are any vocals in the music, you won't hear them well on your recording because the vocals are routed through the PA...there are usually no vocal speakers on stage facing out towards the audience.  So the insruments are nice and direct and the vocals are distant and full of room reverb.  Second, if you're not centered well between all of the instruments on stage, one instrument can dominate your recording.  For example, if drums aren't in the back, but to one side of the stage, it's going to be an awful sound...at least if you listen through headphones.  Have you ever heard a recording that you can listen to for long if the drums are all coming out of one channel?  It might sound the same as it did at the show, but that doesn't make for a good recording IMHO.

[ilduclo]

Omnis will work great with either quiet crowds & quiet music, or loud music & any kind of crowd

[yltfan]

I too am allergic to crowd noise, but am pretty happy with the sound I get from cards (at853). What I wander is will omnis add more crowd noise or diffuse it? Are there any situations where omnis would help with crowd noise? I suspect not.

[bombdiggity]

You can still readily get phasing with omnis if you move them... 

Clip the ones you have to a collar and you have considerably more freedom of movement.  You'll not hear any difference relative to head mount in terms of the sound. 

[acidjack]

I too am allergic to crowd noise, but am pretty happy with the sound I get from cards (at853). What I wander is will omnis add more crowd noise or diffuse it? Are there any situations where omnis would help with crowd noise? I suspect not.

tonedeaf is right that in terms of small stealth mics, omnis will provide a fuller sound, and used up close, probably the "best" sound. That said, the AT853 miniature cardiods, as well as the Church Audio CA-14, are I think plenty full-range to do the job. You can always do things in post to make a recording less tinny, too.

If you're talking about open taping, then no, I would not buy omnis unless you only record very close to the source. The difference in fullness of bass response goes pretty much away when you're dealing with mid- to high-end mics that aren't miniature.

[nulldogmas]

If I could find cards where I was entirely happy with the sound, I'd use them 100% of the time. As it is, I stick with my CA-14 cards 90% of the time, but occasionally I still bring out my CSBs in rooms where the cards have felt tinny.

So, you know, it depends. I've occasionally gotten best-of-both-worlds results by using both the cards and the omnis from the same location and mixing to taste later. More often I end up just chucking one entire pair of channels (or mixing them way down), but if nothing else it taught me some about which mics work best in which rooms.

[nulldogmas]

That said, the AT853 miniature cardiods, as well as the Church Audio CA-14, are I think plenty full-range to do the job. You can always do things in post to make a recording less tinny, too.

The CA-14 cards are really good, and kicking down the 1-10KHz range by a couple of dB can help with tinniness. But I've still never been quite as happy with them as with the CSBs under ideal conditions (close to stage in narrow, quiet room).

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

This is in no way a scientific comparison, but I run 2 sets of omni's. They are completely different IMO.

The Nevaton MCE400's seems to be more directional, but still they are omni's.  I think they sound fantastic.

The Countryman B3's are smaller, and are way better for extra stealthy operation, but I think they pick up more crowd noise near me. That being said, they sound great if you are in the sweet spot and you don't have chatty people next to you.

I run the Nevaton's more often because most of the shows I stealth tend to have chatty people, and are sold out so I don't have the option to move easily.

IMO, the Nevaton's are more of a "directional" omni. Sort of the best of both worlds, or a good middle ground between that better omni sound, but with more nearby sound rejection.

The Nevaton's are pretty hard to find (and I have no plans on selling mine anytime soon), but maybe you could find something similar. Sorry I don't know what that would be. Maybe someone else can add something.

[aaronji]

I don't stealth much anymore, but I'd get omni's for the reasons you mentioned.  You can't avoid crowd chatter when you're stealth taping and omni's will indeed help with the phasing effect you hear.  The fact that you're at a rock concert helps because the music volume helps mask background noise. The deep bass you're after depends on the mic model/brand more than the capsule type.

That's not completely accurate, I think.  Cardioids, from any real taping distance, roll off substantially in the low end (see attached graph for the DPA 4011 as an example).  Omnis definitely pull the low-end!

[earmonger]

I am a big fan of omnis, clipped to shirt collar. I like the bass and I like the 360-degree soundfield. Yes, chatters are a problem and distance is the best solution.   But in a club omnis, with your back to the front of the sound booth, is a great location--no one talking behind you.

You can try social engineering too.   If people talk through the opening act you could point to the mics and tell the neighbors "I'm trying to record this show because my son/boyfriend/uncle/niece/AA buddy/parole officer  is in the band. Could you try not to talk through the set? It's really important."   

[bryonsos]

If you're only going to own 1 set of omnis, B3s are hard to beat. I ran mine open at Furthur a few years ago for shits and giggles, and tons of folks downloaded and complimented it.

The Countryman B3's are smaller, and are way better for extra stealthy operation, but I think they pick up more crowd noise near me. That being said, they sound great if you are in the sweet spot and you don't have chatty people next to you.

[blg]

Just my opinion, but i will never stealth with omni's again, ever.  I've run side by side many times with a friend who runs dpa 4061's and the difference in the amount of crowd we pick up is pretty substantial.  I almost never worry about anyone behind me now, nor people on the left and right.

[fandelive]

Yes, chatters are a problem and distance is the best solution.   But in a club omnis, with your back to the front of the sound booth, is a great location--no one talking behind you.

From my personal gathered experience, I wouldn't stand FOB when taping with omnis because :
1. I'd still have alot of people talking between the speakers and the mics.
2. There would be less chance for chatters to be buried by loud music.

I st€a1th using cardioids mounted on a hat since 2009 and I don't think I ever taped FOB. Even with cards. I actually always consider 2 options :
1. If I can get a good dead-center and above the crowd spot at the back of the venue (balcony, tier - I've done that in both clubs and arenas with honorable results), I tape from there.
2. Otherwise, I try to stand in front of a speaker (since I don't think I've ever attended a concert where the mix was stereo...) where the mix sounds good enough to my ears and people seem to be calm.

You can try social engineering too.   If people talk through the opening act you could point to the mics and tell the neighbors "I'm trying to record this show because my son/boyfriend/uncle/niece/AA buddy/parole officer  is in the band. Could you try not to talk through the set? It's really important."

As for this... I've lost my faith in humanity. Have you ever tried to convince a group of big fat-asses brainless german wooooooooo wooooooo woooooooo woooooooo woooooooo wooooooooo girls to stop being stuck to their phones and shut the fuck up when you don't speak a single german word ? Moving away is the best option in this case.

That said, the AT853 miniature cardiods, as well as the Church Audio CA-14, are I think plenty full-range to do the job.

If you're only going to own 1 set of omnis, B3s are hard to beat. I ran mine open at Furthur a few years ago for shits and giggles, and tons of folks downloaded and complimented it.

I don't know about the AT853, but I still have to hear a st€a1th tape (I'm not talking open taping) done with CA-14s or Countryman B3s that sounds top-notch to me...
With that being said, alot of st€a1th recordings are released without any information on taping location, how the mics were mounted, and so on...
And sometimes, you get an heavy post-processed recording instead of a raw tape. So you can't make yourself an opinion on these.

That's the reason why, these days, I tend to rely much more on who actually taped (and remastered) the show I'm after rather than what kind of equipment was used.

You can always do things in post to make a recording less tinny, too.

I'm only considering omnis (and I was thinking about getting a pair of DPA 4061s) because I think my MM-HLSC-1s sound a bit thin.
I've tried post-processing a bit, but with no success or at least nothing I was fully satisfied with.

kicking down the 1-10KHz range by a couple of dB can help with tinniness.

Just tried that advice while playing one of my tapes thru VLC and it worked great
I need more technical knowledge...

[nulldogmas]

kicking down the 1-10KHz range by a couple of dB can help with tinniness.

Just tried that advice while playing one of my tapes thru VLC and it worked great
I need more technical knowledge...

That wisdom was brought to you entirely by "screw around with the EQ sliders with your eyes closed until it sounds right."

[Humbug]

I've never been tempted by omnis. Here's a stealth recording of Tedeschi Trucks Band Live at Shepherd's Bush, using AT853 caps, which I upped to the archive. It's pretty listenable.

Location: centre 1st balcony, three rows back, mics collar mounted:

https://archive.org/details/ttb2011-06-29.at933.flac16

[Humbug]

And another stealth recording using AT853 cards, in a small club at SXSW (The Bellrays), about 10m from the band, again collar mounted mics:

https://archive.org/details/bellrays2011-03-18.at933

[fandelive]

I've never been tempted by omnis. Here's a stealth recording of Tedeschi Trucks Band Live at Shepherd's Bush, using AT853 caps, which I upped to the archive. It's pretty listenable.

Location: centre 1st balcony, three rows back, mics collar mounted:

Drums could have been a little more in front in the mix (but that's not your fault). Apart from vocals and piano or electric guitar when it comes to solo parts, the rest of the mix sound a bit nebulous to me when there's alot of instruments to catch at the same time.
Maybe a very slightly bit of bad room acoustics (echoes) have been captured from your spot. To me, you stood a bit too far from the source. But I'm just a very picky bastard.
Good brightness on the other hand (better than the second recording you posted).

I've heard a bunch of recorings from different tapers made at Shepherd's Bush and it globally sounds like a muddy venue and you can't do anything about it.
Considering the venue acoustics, this is still a great taping effort and an enjoyable recording.

If only more of the audience tapes that are floating around could sound like that...

And another stealth recording using AT853 cards, in a small club at SXSW (The Bellrays), about 10m from the band, again collar mounted mics:

Unless you're fairly tall, you should try hat mount someday. Maybe you'll save a bit of clarity. Plenty of good bass sound here. Just as ambient as omnis !!
I don't know the price of your mics, but this is indeed a nice sounding recording comparing to alot of audience tapes made with mics in (I guess) the same price range.

Those kind of tapes are the reason why I tend to prefer good audiences renditions over soundboards. Great atmosphere and a valuable souvenir for the taper and the people who attended the show (and the fans who could not be there).
I'd recommend this recording to discover the band


All in all, I respect you as a taper and I know I've already enjoyed listening to some of your tapes in the past (especially an acoustic Black Stone Cherry - over and over and over and over again).
I use to download a whole lot of audience tapes. But only a few finally stay on my hard disc. And I kept a bunch of yours
Thank you for taping and sharing.

[fandelive]

So... Let's start a dick measurment contest 

Here's a link to a pack including mp3 samples of my best recordings to date : http://uptobox.com/o3n5899txrfg

Source : MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod done by Church Audio) (on hat) > CA-9100 > Edirol R09-HR @ 24/48 (line-in).
Post-processing : normalizing + 24/48 > 16/24. No EQ or whatsoever.

====================
1000_club-10th_row-front_of_left_speaker

1000 capacity club
Taped from 10th row, under left speakers which were hanging and pointing at me.
Sounds a bit too bright to me. You can blame both the soundguy and my mics I guess. The recording definitely lacks bass.

====================
12000_arena-tier-dead_center

12000 capacity arena

I was lucky enough the get a seat in the tier, dead center, 3 rows behind the sound desk cage.
I was afraid of getting too much room reverb standing too far from the speakers, but sound was actually honorable from my spot... especially for this set (it was an indoor festival) !!

Best tape of the night. Great balance between instruments and vocals. My cardioid mics managed to clean out unwanted echoes pretty nicely.
A very few distant audience chatters here and there, but nothing disturbing at all. Audience noise is globally pretty distant on this one.

If I want to be picky, I'd say the sound is slightly muffled.

====================
1200_club-balcony-dead_center

1200 capacity club
Taped from balcony, dead center.

Again, I was very lucky with audience chatters. This might be my best audience pull to date.
This is basically as if the mics were mounted on a stand, open taping style. And an amazing sounding venue.

====================
300_club-4th_row-front_of_right_speaker

300 capacity club
Taped 5 rows back from stage, almost dead center (which was still only about 3 meters from right stack).

I like taping shows in small clubs. Those venues are usually where you get the least unwanted room reverb for the benefit of a raw sound that serves bands like this one's performances pretty well... And that night made no exception to the rule !

I was standing further away from stage during the opening act (theorical sweet spot 'triangle').
I then took an opportunity to move a few rows forward before the main act hit the stage to avoid the usual drunk guy to my left and two smartphone addicted woooooo-girls who managed to settle down in front of me.
I could still hear both of them from my safer spot but my cardioid mics did an awesome cleaning job.
Soundwise, that new location finally ended up being better than the previous one. People around were quieter and minus an occasional stealth farter that is not audible on the recording, I had nothing to complain about.

While at the show, I had a strange impression that the mix was slightly unbalanced with the right stack of speakers rendering much more vocals comparing to the left. It's less noticeable on the recording thought.
Nonetheless, this tape will make you relive the concert as if you were there when played back thru a good pair of headset.
Good sound, great band/audience interaction and a fairly reasonable amount of crowd noise. I left the recording untouched.

====================
300_club-6th_row-front_of_right_speaker

300 capacity club
Taped about 5 meters from stage, almost dead center (which, again, was still only a few meters from right stack).

A bit more chatters here and the tinny sound profile of my mics is bugging me more on this one.
But all in all, great work from the soundguy.

====================
bonus-300_club-back_right_corner_of_venue-low_ceiling

300 capacity club

It's a pretty small room (not even a 10-meter side square). The sound seems to be good, no matter where you are standing.
Recording from the back-right corner of a venue may sound awkward to experimented tapers, but I stood there during the opening act and found the rendition to be great enough. With that being said, I was only 2 meters away from the soundboard.

Here, I think I recorded too many vibrations from both right and back walls and the low ceiling.
If I happen to tape in the same venue again in the future, I'll try to reach a better spot.