Topic: Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern

[carlbeck]

I'd suggest the MBHO 440's or 200's. Both are cardiods but offer a nice roll of that helps for the back of the room. They are a really nice sounding mic, I prefer them to the 180's & a pair of 440's are pretty reasonably priced.

[MakersMarc]

I've always thought that about 150s but didn't want to rip 'em.

[carlbeck]

I'd also suggest the Berliner CM33's, another card with a roll off that works in the back of the room, well within your budget.

[DSatz]

The 1-meter-on-axis frequency response of the KM 150/185 is attached below (with the KM 145 shown for comparison, since it is specifically sold as a "speech cardioid").

For more distant sound sources, the bass reduction would be greater than shown. Proximity effect affects a microphone more, the more it's based on the pressure-gradient pickup principle rather than the pressure pickup principle--and that means that there's more proximity effect with figure-8, hypercardioid and supercardioid microphones than (for example) cardioids.

HOWEVER, since the polar pattern of the KM 150/185 is essentially the same at all frequencies, it is very amenable to equalization. If you make a recording with them, have no fear of trying to boost the bass in playback or post-production. If the room was better than you anticipated, you can restore more of the missing bass.

But on the third hand, it is remarkable how a smooth, gradual bass rolloff can be acceptable to the ear. That's not to say that the low-frequency energy wouldn't be welcome if it can be returned to the recording; it's just that the reduction can change the illusion without necessarily destroying it, to a degree that might surprise a person. Typically, a classic "speech cardioid" is about -12 dB at 50 Hz in the type of measurement shown, while the KM 150/185 provides about 2/3 of that, which is a useful way to split the difference, I think.

[MakersMarc]

Of all the hundreds of hyper recordings I've listened to, I've most liked in order  Schoeps mk41 and akg 63 for dealing with distance and or high ceiling, overhang, etc.but not rolling off too much bass. Or really much at all in the case of the 41. Great all around cap, if I had Schoeps I'd own that and a pair of mk2s and call it a day. I'm so attached to my 4022s though. My favorite small diaphragm card ever. Place it well and be rewarded.

[MakersMarc]

I'd suggest the MBHO 440's or 200's. Both are cardiods but offer a nice roll of that helps for the back of the room. They are a really nice sounding mic, I prefer them to the 180's & a pair of 440's are pretty reasonably priced.

Ditto on the 200s, I always had good luck far back. Had trouble with Panic up close, felt that the soundstage collapsed under all the spls. Great for everything else tho. Sold them to fund dpas.

[JimmieC]

I would like to mention that ADK TL's (multipattern) sound really good and can be found for relatively cheap.  There used to be a pair in the Yard Sale  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173645.0

[BonoBeats]

I would like to mention that ADK TL's (multipattern) sound really good and can be found for relatively cheap.  There used to be a pair in the Yard Sale  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173645.0

Agreed. The TL's in hyper setting are my go-to for noisy/boomy indoor shows...

[noahbickart]

Save your money for a used pair of schoeps mk41 capsules. Have Nick build you a "nbob kcy" and use naiant pfas. All in all ~$1500 or so.

Schoeps just lowered their pricing, there are lots on the used market.

the mk41/mk41v is everyone's favorite hyper for a reason. It sounds like a mk4 with more off axis rejection. But unlike most others, the polar pattern is consistent and the *off-axis* response is smooth. So it's directional without sounding unnatural.

A dual capsule LD microphone is really two cardioids back to back. You can fake a hyper pattern with it, but the polar pattern isn't consistent.

[John Willett]

  I was not aware that the KM150 had no bottom to speak of.  Good to know.

The Gefell M310 holds up better at the bottom end - I have attached the response curves of the M310 as well as the Neumann KM150 and KM185 for comparison.

Also - I had not realised that Neumann have now discontinued the KM 100 series - to find the frequency response of the KM150 I had to go to the "Historical Microphones" section on the Neumann website.

[jcb]

Low price and forgiving with reasonable quality (this is rather subjective) : the Audio Technica AT875R might well be worth a try. It cut rather brutally everything below 80Hz by design but that is the same as using a high-pass filter at 80Hz.
The build quality and sound are surprisingly good for the price.

[ashevillain]

Surprisingly, neither of these have been mentioned yet and IMO both should definitely be in this conversation:

Audix M1280
Oktava MK-012

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Of course, I'm partial to the AT4053a. I ran those for years, almost exclusively...indoors, outdoors, close or far from the stage. Only place I didn't run them was onstage.

[Gutbucket]

For low budget performance, the AKD TL [edit] ADK TL, although full sized LDC, heavy, and electrically switched rather than a single diaphragm design, is hard to beat.   The super/hyper pattern sounds good and the mics are well regarded by tapers and generally not too hard to find.   I almost always use the TLs in that pattern or as a figure 8, mostly on stage.  Can't comment on their performance from far back in the room from my own experience.

Another which deserves mention as a top performing hypercard on par with the MK41 is the Microtech Gefell M21 capsule, typically specified as the M210 with amplifier body, although they can now be run as actives via the 3rd party solutions around here.  It has excellent pattern behavior and a healthy bass response.  Great microphone IMHO, although not in the specified budget range.  Here's the plots from the MG site:

[thunderbolt]

Sound like a broken record, but Avantone CK-1.  $300/pair with omni, card and hyper caps.  IMO there's nothing that can touch them at this price.

[DSatz]

Gutbucket, the frequency and polar response curves that you posted don't appear to match. Note how at low frequencies the two frequency response curves come much closer to each other than they are in the midrange. That corresponds to a widening of the polar pattern that occurs at low frequencies in all dual-diaphragm cardioids and supercardioids--but that widening isn't shown in the polar graphs (if I understand which frequencies are shown on which graphs). So I suspect that these may be "aspirational" graphs rather than reflections of the microphone's actual performance. (The frequency response in the top octave also looks like no real-world microphone that I've ever seen.)

The progressive widening of pattern means that a coincident or closely-spaced pair of these microphones would pick up more and more strongly correlated (increasingly similar) signals at lower and lower frequencies, i.e. the recording would tend strongly toward being mono in the bass. That's the opposite of what creates any sense of spaciousness in a stereo recording.

A microphone with this type of characteristic could be useful as a soloist's microphone in a relatively dead studio, since it would pick up with clarity from the front in the midrange and above, while letting in more room sound at low frequencies, thus creating a sense of warmth and roundness to balance that clarity. But I wouldn't choose this type of microphone for the kind of live stereo recording that I do, at least.

--best regards

P.S.: Full disclosure: When I wrote this message, I'd missed Gutbucket's statement that the curves are from Microtech Gefell, a manufacturer that I think highly of; I thought they were from ADK (though I was surprised to see multi-frequency polar plots and multi-angle frequency response plots coming from them). I'll leave what I wrote, even though I believe the capsule is single-diaphragm. In that case, the apparent broadening of pattern at low frequencies is simply a shortcoming of the particular acoustical design of this capsule. As I've said elsewhere, it's harder to make a good cardioid than a good omni, and it's even harder to make a good supercardioid than it is to make a good cardioid. OTOH as I also said in this message, there are definite applications for a microphone with this set of characteristics.